What happened to all the Ray Allen haters now?

[3pt %]

lets keep the cheap shots out and enjoy one of the best debates this board has seen in years.

If anyone arcs up and gets this thread locked by being juvenile, they should get an automatic pink slip.

Pogue, Bill.. please continue.

[MyInsatiableOne]

It's interesting to imagine what Minnesota would have been like if Ray and Kevin had been together since Ray's rookie year, and he hadn't been swapped for Marbury. Certainly, Ray would have never complained about his contract like Stephon and demanded a trade. They seem to go together so well, that I find it hard to imagine them not having at least one championship.

A very good point. Another one to file into the "What If?" bin...that could have been cool.

Or would McHale have traded BOTH of them to us last year?

[billfromBoston]

I do think that Ray Allen IS a prime candidate for trade/S&T/release because of the substantial salary slot he occupies and Ainge's stated desire to keep this team a title contender beyond the window that GPA are likely to provide

With Rondo, Perks, Powe, TA and others developing I think the realistic title window for GPA is probably 4-5 seasons, (this one plus 3 more) which is in line with KG's deal...however, the team is going to have to explore market options in order to avoid a 90's-esque mediocrity lull because the high end talent on this team is aging and will need augmentation from an outside source in order to sustain a high level of performance.

Fortunately, with the team's reputation on the rise around the league, there should be plenty of interest in joining the Celtics as long as they are playing at a high level and the team has an outstanding supporting cast of role playing youth who will be in their prime when the next wave of star power is aquired - Rondo is clearly the first of them, with more to come...

...if that means Ray doesn't stay a Celtic to retirement, so be it...

[Havlicek17]

I think we pretty much all agree that Ray is not going anywhere this year.

His contract is expiring next year (the point at which we have the most trade value and trade dollars for a tier 1 player in exchange) and we are the defending champs...see Jerry Krause.

Are we going to trade Ray next year? Who knows. Maybe, but not definitely. If he keeps playing well and we keep winning (#18), none of the starters are going anywhere...see Jerry Krause

[ryaningf]

I know it's hard to remember what happened yesterday, let alone what happened 6 months ago, but we should all give props to BillfromBoston, who predicted after the Finals that Ray Allen would have a big year this year. His reasoning was that the Cs had learned in the Finals the proper way to utilize Ray Allen and that because of that he would have a huge bounce back year. It seems like you were right, BillfromBoston. Well done.

[billfromBoston]

I know it's hard to remember what happened yesterday, let alone what happened 6 months ago, but we should all give props to BillfromBoston, who predicted after the Finals that Ray Allen would have a big year this year. His reasoning was that the Cs had learned in the Finals the proper way to utilize Ray Allen and that because of that he would have a huge bounce back year. It seems like you were right, BillfromBoston. Well done.

Thanks...its funny, because its seemed like an obvious course correction, but I didn't see much support despite the results...this is being further extended now in the form of Paul Pierce's recent offensive power outage right as Rondo has exploded.

Much like last season with Ray, I think Paul is having a tough time figuring out how to be more finisher than playmaking ball-handler. The Celtics are putting the rock in Rondo's hands and that is leaving Pierce on the court without the responsibility of setting up the half-court offense for the first time in years...I believe Pierce will eventually figure it out and once that happens, LOOK OUT...

This team is still working on integrating the top 3 bench players - Powe/TA/House into the team's offense and it is still learning how to play with Rondo as the principle ball-handler. So there is a TON of stuff to improve on before this team is close to its ceiling - and this doesn't even include potential aquisition players that may arrive.

The fact that this team can be so dominant without being at full strength is a testament to their greatness and potential to establish a real legacy over the next 3-5 seasons...

[Kefa461]

I know it's hard to remember what happened yesterday, let alone what happened 6 months ago, but we should all give props to BillfromBoston, who predicted after the Finals that Ray Allen would have a big year this year. His reasoning was that the Cs had learned in the Finals the proper way to utilize Ray Allen and that because of that he would have a huge bounce back year. It seems like you were right, BillfromBoston. Well done.

Thanks...its funny, because its seemed like an obvious course correction, but I didn't see much support despite the results...this is being further extended now in the form of Paul Pierce's recent offensive power outage right as Rondo has exploded.

Much like last season with Ray, I think Paul is having a tough time figuring out how to be more finisher than playmaking ball-handler. The Celtics are putting the rock in Rondo's hands and that is leaving Pierce on the court without the responsibility of setting up the half-court offense for the first time in years...I believe Pierce will eventually figure it out and once that happens, LOOK OUT...

This team is still working on integrating the top 3 bench players - Powe/TA/House into the team's offense and it is still learning how to play with Rondo as the principle ball-handler. So there is a TON of stuff to improve on before this team is close to its ceiling - and this doesn't even include potential aquisition players that may arrive.

The fact that this team can be so dominant without being at full strength is a testament to their greatness and potential to establish a real legacy over the next 3-5 seasons...

My feelings exactly.....this team is nowhere near playing it's best. They have not tapped what they are capable of doing with Rondo at the point and Paul just understanding his new role and using Ray fully, KG having the offense flow through him and getting some rest, with a full bench. This window can be left open for many years.IMHO. Bill has stated it well.

[MyInsatiableOne]

^^I agree, we aren't even playing our best...and are 20-2. Once we click, watch out NBA...

[BillessuR6]

Couldn`t agree more with what you wrote BFB.

[Athanacropolis]

Couldn`t agree more with what you wrote BFB.

Here, here. It's like Bill took the words out of my mouth regarding Ray and Paul's role in the team.

I was with you last year too, Bill, in that Ray's injuries were obviously bugging him and that he hadn't been effectively integrated into his brand-new team. It was clear though, that even with those problems, Ray was still a killer. I still don't understand how people thought he was "washed up" last year.

Anyway, Ray Allen is awesome, and we're all lucky he's a Celtics.

[ryaningf]

I know it's hard to remember what happened yesterday, let alone what happened 6 months ago, but we should all give props to BillfromBoston, who predicted after the Finals that Ray Allen would have a big year this year. His reasoning was that the Cs had learned in the Finals the proper way to utilize Ray Allen and that because of that he would have a huge bounce back year. It seems like you were right, BillfromBoston. Well done.

Thanks...its funny, because its seemed like an obvious course correction, but I didn't see much support despite the results...this is being further extended now in the form of Paul Pierce's recent offensive power outage right as Rondo has exploded.

Much like last season with Ray, I think Paul is having a tough time figuring out how to be more finisher than playmaking ball-handler. The Celtics are putting the rock in Rondo's hands and that is leaving Pierce on the court without the responsibility of setting up the half-court offense for the first time in years...I believe Pierce will eventually figure it out and once that happens, LOOK OUT...

Pierce has simply been missing very makeable shots, especially from 3. While Rondo/Ray have this telepathy thing going, Rondo/Paul are having a hard time getting in rhythm. That said, I don't think it's quite right to compare what Ray went through last season with what Paul is going through now. Last season, Ray was coming off surgery, was about 80% by his own admission, and was just trying to fit it on a new team. Paul, on the other hand, came into this season in great shape after a Finals MVP, had a nice opening 3 weeks of the season, and then just fell off a little. To me, it's not so much that Paul is struggling, it's more that Rondo/Ray just took off--both are playing exceptional ball right now and Paul has willingly taken a backseat. In the past, he'd just shoot his way through mini-slumps--this season, he's just taking fewer shots because Rondo/Ray can pick up the load.

This team is still working on integrating the top 3 bench players - Powe/TA/House into the team's offense and it is still learning how to play with Rondo as the principle ball-handler. So there is a TON of stuff to improve on before this team is close to its ceiling - and this doesn't even include potential aquisition players that may arrive.

The fact that this team can be so dominant without being at full strength is a testament to their greatness and potential to establish a real legacy over the next 3-5 seasons...

Yeah, our offense is still a huge work in progress, and it all has to do with Rondo's progress and the team's ability to play off him as he continues to develop. We're probably not going to get everything ironed out until late next season, in my opinion, at least on the offensive end. As we all know, the defense has allowed us a giant cushion as far as our offensive efficiency is concerned.

The way I look at it, our dynastic aspirations have been severely undersold by most of the prognosticators. Barring injuries, we are set up for at least a 5-year championship contention run, hopefully getting at least a few 'chips during those five years. The thing is, we've surrounded the Big 3 with 4 young, up-and-coming players (Rondo/Perk/TA/Powe) who are almost certain to improve in each of the next 3 or 4 seasons. The trick, for the Cs, is for the Little 4 to continue to improve at a rate which makes up for the inevitable decline of the Big 3, a fate we know is coming, we just don't know when. So far, those 4's development is ahead of the Big 3's decline, and as we've seen this season, we've become a better team as a result. And this isn't even factoring in other acquisitions we might make, veterans like Eddie House or PJ Brown who fill gaps, or other young players who might vault themselves into the Little 4, like Gabe Pruitt, Walker, or Giddens (or even Baby or POB). The future is bright right now, barring injuries which could throw this entire analysis off-axis.

[GuyClinch]

Pierce has simply been missing very makeable shots, especially from 3. While Rondo/Ray have this telepathy thing going, Rondo/Paul are having a hard time getting in rhythm. That said, I don't think it's quite right to compare what Ray went through last season with what Paul is going through now.

I got to side with BFB with this one. PP is often just standing around the perimeter - waiting. Whereas Ray is moving around a bit more without the ball. When Paul does score he usually gets the ball from Rondo and then becomes a playmaker who might take a shot rather then a finisher. He absolutely looks more comfortable playing that way. And that's how he won the MVP - being a playmaker.

Pete

[ryaningf]

Pierce has simply been missing very makeable shots, especially from 3. While Rondo/Ray have this telepathy thing going, Rondo/Paul are having a hard time getting in rhythm. That said, I don't think it's quite right to compare what Ray went through last season with what Paul is going through now.

I got to side with BFB with this one. PP is often just standing around the perimeter - waiting. Whereas Ray is moving around a bit more without the ball. When Paul does score he usually gets the ball from Rondo and then becomes a playmaker who might take a shot rather then a finisher. He absolutely looks more comfortable playing that way. And that's how he won the MVP - being a playmaker.

Pete

Yeah, Pete, I agree with that part of BFB's analysis--the part where Paul hasn't yet fully realized his own ability to play off-the-ball with Rondo at the helm. My response to BFB should have been clearer, my bad. I just don't think the comparison with what Ray went through last season is THAT accurate--Ray's 'problems' were more than playing off-the-ball; it was about injury compensation, a new team, Rondo's development and progress, etc... All the things that contributed to Ray's downturn last season (and conversely allowed Paul to pretty much play his game the way he always had) have all changed for the better this season and created the perfect storm for Ray's resurgence--something BFB anticipated (to his credit). Ray and Paul are slowly going more off-the-ball because of Rondo's increased confidence, knowledge, and development and THAT'S GREAT. Ray went through his transition last season, Paul's going through his now. I just think Ray's challenge was greater--injury, new team, Rondo not-quite there--while Paul's isn't that hard of a challenge. Additionally, I think Paul's looking at Rondo's growth spurt, and Ray's incredible stretch of shooting, and telling himself he doesn't have to do as much out there. So, where Ray deferred because he was still rounding into physical form, it was a new team, Rondo was young, etc..., I think Paul is deferring because he's seeing what's happening and just letting it happen. Ray's playing great, Rondo's setting the table like an All-Star, and Pierce knows he can put it on cruise with no ill-effects.

The upshot of this is that while it took Ray most of the season to figure out what he needed to do be successful, I don't think it's going to take Paul near as much time because his 'problem' is not nearly as wide-ranging as Ray's was last season. I'm sure Paul will soon start hitting the makeable shots he's now missing, and that he'll learn from Ray and start moving a little better out there, getting out on the break a little more, etc...it's just that the past two to three weeks, Ray and Rondo have been simply playing exceptional and Paul, like a veteran, has picked a spot during the season where he can rest a little while others carry the load. Paul may have been up-and-down these past 3 weeks, but I'm pretty sure it will not be a season-long inconsistency like Ray suffered through most of last season.

[UGA Hayes]

Eh ... I don't know that I agree that we should be shifting the blame for Ray's inferior production last year compared to this year to Doc, rondo or anyone else. IMO the style Ray played last year was akin to how he played his entire career, except he tried to dribble like he was 1990's ray when in reality that Ray ,who was a little bit quicker, doesn't exist anymore.

HE was resisting that change and it showed in two ways. When got trapped on the wing he refused to give up the ball quickly last year b/c in the past he could hit a miracle shot or break the trap. He couldn't do it last year. Second Ray is a fast break gunner: that is he doesn't give up the rock in those situations, which was fine in the past b/c his handle was good enought to get him to the rim where he remains an excellent finisher.

Ray has changed this year. He is passing before the trap gets their on the wing (though he still sucks on the fast break). Ray has more of a passing reputation then he deserves and it took him some time to adjust to not having the ball in his hand as much. To his credit he has adjusted. But I don't think that means those of us who criticized him last year were wrong about his play LAST year. We may have been wrong about him being able to bounce back/adjust this year, but they are not the same thing

[Havlicek17]

I am hopeful that most of us are on the same page now, and understand the value Ray brings to the Celts even when he is having an off night shooting, or whatever. Here's a quote from Byron Scott that I think hits the nail on the head.

"[Pierce] creates problems when he puts his head down and tries to get to the basket," Hornets coach Byron Scott said. "We just didn't do a good job of reacting when he was in [isolation] situations. We were so scared of Ray Allen and their shooters that we were allowing [Pierce] to get to the basket instead of taking away that paint and forcing him to kick the ball to those shooters."

When teams collapse in the paint so Paul can't get to the basket, we go out to the perimeter where Ray can kill them.

This team has proven that it can beat you by playing great defense and playing whatever style of offense you give them. Half court, full court, slow down, up tempo, inside or outside? Pick your poison baby, pick your poison!

[billfromBoston]

Eh ... I don't know that I agree that we should be shifting the blame for Ray's inferior production last year compared to this year to Doc, rondo or anyone else. IMO the style Ray played last year was akin to how he played his entire career, except he tried to dribble like he was 1990's ray when in reality that Ray ,who was a little bit quicker, doesn't exist anymore.

HE was resisting that change and it showed in two ways. When got trapped on the wing he refused to give up the ball quickly last year b/c in the past he could hit a miracle shot or break the trap. He couldn't do it last year. Second Ray is a fast break gunner: that is he doesn't give up the rock in those situations, which was fine in the past b/c his handle was good enought to get him to the rim where he remains an excellent finisher.

Ray has changed this year. He is passing before the trap gets their on the wing (though he still sucks on the fast break). Ray has more of a passing reputation then he deserves and it took him some time to adjust to not having the ball in his hand as much. To his credit he has adjusted. But I don't think that means those of us who criticized him last year were wrong about his play LAST year. We may have been wrong about him being able to bounce back/adjust this year, but they are not the same thing

UGA, I think this is accurate, but not exclusive...the elements are inter-related...EXAMPLE:

Doc left Ray Allen out of the majority of the offensive planning, expecting Ray's shooting and overall "smarts" to help him figure out a role form himself. Ray's massive shift in usage and style of play made him somewhat more reluctant to give up the ball when he got it because he wasn't sure how he fit into the offense and didn't want to miss an opportunity to show his worth/get his shot when he did receive the ball.

The struggles Ray had shooting set, open 3's, something he hadn't seen in such volume for years, coupled with the time in the shot-clock he typically received the ball, further encouraged Ray to try and handle/playmake on P&R and other perimeter ball-handling situations...

So, I do think that Ray is responsible to his decisions and reactions to situations, but the situations he was in that led to his decisions were not conducive to Ray playing his best basketball -- you can NEVER, EVER underestimate how great an impact how much communication and understanding of one's role factor into a player's demeanor and decision making on the court - everyone admitted that Ray was an offensive after-thought going into last season and it clearly effected him...this year Ray is the primary or secondary option on most sets and it is benefiting the team greatly.