Woody quote

[HMFFL]

Josh was just awarded an $11M contract over the summer for his good play. Is he really going to listen to someone telling him that he can't shoot jumpers (something he has done since he started playing)? Like it or not, he has a ton more leverage here than Woody. If the ASG are choosing between eating the final year of Woody's contract, or trading their young star, they are going to choose the star hands down.

I disagree.

The ASG just need a good reason to move Al Horford to the 4. By trading Josh Smith we could potentially acquire many pieces that would move the team even closer to a championship. It may hurts us during the short term on defense, but we would over come it, and be a more balanced team with a true big at the 5.

Good coaching in this league is all about give-and-take with your players. In order to get respect from players, you need to give them some leeway to do things on their own. Like I said, I think we can all live with a couple of dumb shots from Josh because of all the other great things he does for us. This isn't your high school or college team, players don't always (and really don't have to) listen to their coaches if they don't want to.

Joe and Mike need to speak out and see what type of reaction Josh has. It'd show if he actually respects them and it would be interesting to see how he takes it. Woodson can't continue to be one. Theres room for missed three pointers by our five three point shooters, but none for Josh, because he doesn't have that type of range, and he's only going to hurt the team if he continues.

Josh Smith's 3 point %.

This year: 24.0
2007-08: 25.3
2006-07: 25.0
2005-06: 30.9
2004-05: 17.4

Marvin's first two years:

24.5
24.4
No reason to mention his third year because he only made one and attempted ten.

With hard work he's shooting 40.0% this season. Marvin has proved to his teammates and coaches that he deserves to take shots from that range and yet Josh Smith continues to attempt .1 less per game.

[JoshB914]

Dont' get me wrong HM, Josh is an AWFUL shooter from three as you have clearly shown. I don't think there is any argument there.

The good thing about Josh is that I do think he respects Joe and Woody. The reason he respects them is because instead of micro-managing every little thing he does (i.e. saying "you can't shoot jump shots"), they simply give him a nudge in the right direction and let him figure it out for himself. That's a big reason why he has greatly improved his offensive game, man defense, and attitude.

If anyone knows how to deal with a personality like Josh, it's his teammates and coaches. They spend more time around him than any of us. I think that they know what they can and can't say to him more than we do.

[NDaATL]

The ASG just need a good reason to move Al Horford to the 4. By trading Josh Smith we could potentially acquire many pieces that would move the team even closer to a championship. It may hurts us during the short term on defense, but we would over come it, and be a more balanced team with a true big at the 5.

There's no reason to move Horford to the 4 just for the sake of doing it. It's not going to magically improve his offensive game as proven when Smith missed the past 12 games. He can succeed at center regardless if he improves. But, I would love to get a legit center as well, but teams don't trade good centers. It just doesn't happen. Which means there is no reason to downgrade talent-wise from Smith to an average big man just to move Horford to the 4.

[tontoz]

Maybe I should just copy & paste the same post over and over again... I will explain this for the millionth time: even though Woody has chewed out Josh in the past that doesn't mean he can just say whatever he wants to him. There is a difference between benching a guy and telling him to work on his shot selection and saying "you are not allowed to shoot three-pointers" anymore.

You still don't get it. The "let Smith find out for himself" method DOES NOT WORK. If Woody lets Smith decide whether or not to shoot threes WE KNOW SMITH WILL KEEP SHOOTING THEM REGARDLESS OF HOW MANY HE MISSES.

Since that approach will never work the next step is to tell him flat out not to shoot them. If he can't handle it then obviously he isn't a grown up after all.

And just because he has to stop shooting them now doesn't mean he has to stop shooting them forever. That is just another one of your dumb strawmen. If Smith improves his jumper and proves that he can make midrange jumpers then he can get the chance to shoot 3s again.

But if Woody does nothing differently (which is what you advocate) then Smith will keep shooting 3s indefinitely. you have stated time and again that this is exactly what you want.

[tontoz]

The ASG just need a good reason to move Al Horford to the 4. By trading Josh Smith we could potentially acquire many pieces that would move the team even closer to a championship. It may hurts us during the short term on defense, but we would over come it, and be a more balanced team with a true big at the 5.

There's no reason to move Horford to the 4 just for the sake of doing it. It's not going to magically improve his offensive game as proven when Smith missed the past 12 games. He can succeed at center regardless if he improves. But, I would love to get a legit center as well, but teams don't trade good centers. It just doesn't happen. Which means there is no reason to downgrade talent-wise from Smith to an average big man just to move Horford to the 4.

There are 96 minutes available at the 4/5 spots. That leaves plenty of minutes for Smith/Horford/Player X assuming we can get another quality big in here. Probably the only way would be getting lucky in the draft.

But we have seen what this team looks like without Smith and it isn't pretty. As much of a headcase as he is he has too much talent and heart to get rid of him just to balance the roster.

[NDaATL]

The ASG just need a good reason to move Al Horford to the 4. By trading Josh Smith we could potentially acquire many pieces that would move the team even closer to a championship. It may hurts us during the short term on defense, but we would over come it, and be a more balanced team with a true big at the 5.

There's no reason to move Horford to the 4 just for the sake of doing it. It's not going to magically improve his offensive game as proven when Smith missed the past 12 games. He can succeed at center regardless if he improves. But, I would love to get a legit center as well, but teams don't trade good centers. It just doesn't happen. Which means there is no reason to downgrade talent-wise from Smith to an average big man just to move Horford to the 4.

There are 96 minutes available at the 4/5 spots. That leaves plenty of minutes for Smith/Horford/Player X assuming we can get another quality big in here. Probably the only way would be getting lucky in the draft.

But we have seen what this team looks like without Smith and it isn't pretty. As much of a headcase as he is he has too much talent and heart to get rid of him just to balance the roster.

Yeah, bigs are basically only found in the draft and/or by a lucky FA signing.

I don't think Smith is a headcase, I'd call him emotional but not a headcase. He seems to get along with everyone on the team. He does take some dumb jumpers but that can be much improved if Woody would enforce it.

[JoshB914]

Maybe I should just copy & paste the same post over and over again... I will explain this for the millionth time: even though Woody has chewed out Josh in the past that doesn't mean he can just say whatever he wants to him. There is a difference between benching a guy and telling him to work on his shot selection and saying "you are not allowed to shoot three-pointers" anymore.

You still don't get it. The "let Smith find out for himself" method DOES NOT WORK. If Woody lets Smith decide whether or not to shoot threes WE KNOW SMITH WILL KEEP SHOOTING THEM REGARDLESS OF HOW MANY HE MISSES.

Since that approach will never work the next step is to tell him flat out not to shoot them. If he can't handle it then obviously he isn't a grown up after all.

And just because he has to stop shooting them now doesn't mean he has to stop shooting them forever. That is just another one of your dumb strawmen. If Smith improves his jumper and proves that he can make midrange jumpers then he can get the chance to shoot 3s again.

But if Woody does nothing differently (which is what you advocate) then Smith will keep shooting 3s indefinitely. you have stated time and again that this is exactly what you want.

Actually Josh has improved his shot selection quite a bit which was evidenced by his 46% shooting last season. He has gone through a stretch like this every year early on when he takes too many stupid shots and looks frustrated. During this week or two everyone overreacts (this all began in his third year when there was a long thread in November about trading him) and calls for Smith and/or Woodson's head.

It is very clear that Josh is never going to stop taking a few jumpers a game. He's been in the league for five seasons and he still shoots them. Can't we just learn to live with the fact that Josh likes to take a couple of jumpers per game and be happy that he's also a solid offensive player and one of the best defenders in the league?

[JoshB914]

NDatl, you hit the nail on the head on Josh being very emotional, so emotional that some even consider him to be a headcase. Why should Woody tell a guy that is so emotional that he should stop taking jump shots when we all know it would piss him off? Especially when him being in the right emotional state is so important to the team!

[tontoz]

Maybe I should just copy & paste the same post over and over again... I will explain this for the millionth time: even though Woody has chewed out Josh in the past that doesn't mean he can just say whatever he wants to him. There is a difference between benching a guy and telling him to work on his shot selection and saying "you are not allowed to shoot three-pointers" anymore.

You still don't get it. The "let Smith find out for himself" method DOES NOT WORK. If Woody lets Smith decide whether or not to shoot threes WE KNOW SMITH WILL KEEP SHOOTING THEM REGARDLESS OF HOW MANY HE MISSES.

Since that approach will never work the next step is to tell him flat out not to shoot them. If he can't handle it then obviously he isn't a grown up after all.

And just because he has to stop shooting them now doesn't mean he has to stop shooting them forever. That is just another one of your dumb strawmen. If Smith improves his jumper and proves that he can make midrange jumpers then he can get the chance to shoot 3s again.

But if Woody does nothing differently (which is what you advocate) then Smith will keep shooting 3s indefinitely. you have stated time and again that this is exactly what you want.

Actually Josh has improved his shot selection quite a bit which was evidenced by his 46% shooting last season. He has gone through a stretch like this every year early on when he takes too many stupid shots and looks frustrated. During this week or two everyone overreacts (this all began in his third year when there was a long thread in November about trading him) and calls for Smith and/or Woodson's head.

It is very clear that Josh is never going to stop taking a few jumpers a game. He's been in the league for five seasons and he still shoots them. Can't we just learn to live with the fact that Josh likes to take a couple of jumpers per game and be happy that he's also a solid offensive player and one of the best defenders in the league?

No. A 26% shooter from 3 should not be taking 3s, especially when 4 other guys on the team are shooting 40% from 3. Since we have so many other three point threats that makes the middle more open for Smith to do damage inside.

Plus it isn't just the three pointers he takes that is the problem. It is the amount of time he spends behind the 3 pt line. Standing behind the line keeps him off the offensive boards and prevents him from moving without the ball to get easy looks inside. It keeps him from getting the other team in foul trouble and from getting to the line. It keeps him from collapsing the defense and kicking out to guys open behind the line who can actually make 3s.

He has no business standing behind the 3 pt line in the half court set.

[HMFFL]

The ASG just need a good reason to move Al Horford to the 4. By trading Josh Smith we could potentially acquire many pieces that would move the team even closer to a championship. It may hurts us during the short term on defense, but we would over come it, and be a more balanced team with a true big at the 5.

There's no reason to move Horford to the 4 just for the sake of doing it. It's not going to magically improve his offensive game as proven when Smith missed the past 12 games. He can succeed at center regardless if he improves. But, I would love to get a legit center as well, but teams don't trade good centers. It just doesn't happen. Which means there is no reason to downgrade talent-wise from Smith to an average big man just to move Horford to the 4.

I never said we should trade Josh. I feel he doesn't have the leverage over Woodson that some may believe. The ASG have stood by Woodson over the years and I see no reason why they won't if a feud started now.

Of course you don't move Al to the 4 for the sake of it. You move him to the 4 if Josh Smith becomes a cancer on the team and has to be traded. I don't expect it to even come close to that. I fully expect Josh Smith to be here for most of his career and his jersey to be hanging along side Niques at the top of the arena.

My point during all my replies throughout this thread have basically come down to I won't support Josh over Coach Woodson when it comes to his poor shooting. Josh will only continue if Woodson or his teammates don't speak out about it. The fans and the team know how valuable Josh, but Josh seems to forget that he needs to be mature, act professional at all times, and that he's not the top three option on this team. Just because he's a defensive star doesn't mean he's a star on offense.

[tontoz]

NDatl, you hit the nail on the head on Josh being very emotional, so emotional that some even consider him to be a headcase. Why should Woody tell a guy that is so emotional that he should stop taking jump shots when we all know it would piss him off? Especially when him being in the right emotional state is so important to the team!

If he is so fragile that he can't handle someone telling him not to shoot 3s then that just shows he isn't a grown up after all.

[NDaATL]

Can't we just learn to live with the fact that Josh likes to take a couple of jumpers per game and be happy that he's also a solid offensive player and one of the best defenders in the league?

No. Why would you be "content" with a player being pretty good when with a simple fix he could be much more effective? Your logic is basically "he's already a pretty good player, so he doesn't need to fix the bad parts of his game."

And, I don't mind Smith taking a couple of jumpers a game. The problem is that he takes way more than that. He's shooting 2.5 THREES a game and that's not counting all the other long jumpers he takes. I want Smith to work on his shot as much as anyone, because if he ever gets consistent with it, he'll easily score 20+ ppg on much more efficient shooting, and it will open up his drives to the lane more. But, as of now he can't shoot so he doesn't need to be taking that many jumpers.

[JoshB914]

Tontoz I'm not arguing about Woodson's offensive system here. I'm saying that telling him "not to shoot" is the incorrect way to handle Josh Smith as a player.

[tontoz]

Tontoz I'm not arguing about Woodson's offensive system here. I'm saying that telling him "not to shoot" is the incorrect way to handle Josh Smith as a player.

What you don't get is that the "correct" way hasn't worked. Smith standing around the 3 pt line hurts the offense far more than just the bricks he throws up. it is time for the "grown man" to face reality.

So are you saying Woody's system is designed to have Smith spotting up from 3? If that is so then why weren't Zaza, Solo and Horford spotting up from 3 when Smith was out? Why wasn't Marvin spotting up from 3 all last year?

If Woody's system is designed to have Smith spotting up from 3 then that just shows what a dumb coach Woody is.

[JoshB914]

Can't we just learn to live with the fact that Josh likes to take a couple of jumpers per game and be happy that he's also a solid offensive player and one of the best defenders in the league?

No. Why would you be "content" with a player being pretty good when with a simple fix he could be much more effective? Your logic is basically "he's already a pretty good player, so he doesn't need to fix the bad parts of his game."

And, I don't mind Smith taking a couple of jumpers a game. The problem is that he takes way more than that. He's shooting 2.5 THREES a game and that's not counting all the other long jumpers he takes. I want Smith to work on his shot as much as anyone, because if he ever gets consistent with it, he'll easily score 20+ ppg on much more efficient shooting, and it will open up his drives to the lane more. But, as of now he can't shoot so he doesn't need to be taking that many jumpers.

Usually Josh only takes two or three jumpers a game. Every season he goes through this early season slump offensively where he relies on the jumper. I think he'll get out of this phase just like he did last year.

If I'm Woodson, I'm fine with him taking a couple of jumpers, too. And that's exactly what I'm telling him right now, just take a couple of them and make sure they're within the offense. But telling him not to shoot altogether could cause a long-term problem. As for these last few bad games, they have only been a problem in the short-term.

[JoshB914]

Tontoz I'm not arguing about Woodson's offensive system here. I'm saying that telling him "not to shoot" is the incorrect way to handle Josh Smith as a player.

What you don't get is that the "correct" way hasn't worked. Smith standing around the 3 pt line hurts the offense far more than just the bricks he throws up. it is time for the "grown man" to face reality.

So are you saying Woody's system is designed to have Smith spotting up from 3? If that is so then why weren't Zaza, Solo and Horford spotting up from 3 when Smith was out? Why wasn't Marvin spotting up from 3 all last year?

If Woody's system is designed to have Smith spotting up from 3 then that just shows what a dumb coach Woody is.

The offensive system is designed for him to use his face-up game. This is where Josh is at his best in the offense (a position to succeed).

I agree with you that Josh should receive the ball inside the arc where he at least shoots a slightly better percentage, and because the defender can't play as far off of him because he's closer to the hoop.

[tontoz]

Can't we just learn to live with the fact that Josh likes to take a couple of jumpers per game and be happy that he's also a solid offensive player and one of the best defenders in the league?

No. Why would you be "content" with a player being pretty good when with a simple fix he could be much more effective? Your logic is basically "he's already a pretty good player, so he doesn't need to fix the bad parts of his game."

And, I don't mind Smith taking a couple of jumpers a game. The problem is that he takes way more than that. He's shooting 2.5 THREES a game and that's not counting all the other long jumpers he takes. I want Smith to work on his shot as much as anyone, because if he ever gets consistent with it, he'll easily score 20+ ppg on much more efficient shooting, and it will open up his drives to the lane more. But, as of now he can't shoot so he doesn't need to be taking that many jumpers.

Usually Josh only takes two or three jumpers a game. Every season he goes through this early season slump offensively where he relies on the jumper. I think he'll get out of this phase just like he did last year.

If I'm Woodson, I'm fine with him taking a couple of jumpers, too. And that's exactly what I'm telling him right now, just take a couple of them and make sure they're within the offense. But telling him not to shoot altogether could cause a long-term problem. As for these last few bad games, they have only been a problem in the short-term.

WTF Nobody is advocating telling him not to shoot jumpers. he just has no business shooting 3s. When he is standing behind the 3 pt line the defense doesn't have to guard him and it takes him away from the things he does well.

If Smith can't handle someone telling him not to shoot 3s then he is an immature pansy.

[JoshB914]

And Josh is obviously a little immature when it comes to discussing his own ability. Otherwise he wouldn't be taking threes in the first place.

If he's still taking 2.5 three's a game a month from now then you would have a point.

[tontoz]

And Josh is obviously a little immature when it comes to discussing his own ability. Otherwise he wouldn't be taking threes in the first place.

If he's still taking 2.5 three's a game a month from now then you would have a point.

This is his 5th year. I don't need to wait that long to have a point. He has taken more 3s so far this year than he did in any month last year. So much for his shot selection getting better.

A 26% 3 pt shooter has no business taking any threes at all.