Whose better: 72 win Bulls or 08-09 Celtics?

[captain_cheapseats]

Tough one.....I'd probably go with the Bulls for now.

However, I have to say that those of you saying that Bulls team is the best ever are out of your frickin' minds. They might be the best team of the expansion/salary cap/free agent era, but the good teams prior to the '90s were so incredibly stacked relative to modern teams that it's really not even a fair comparison. The Bulls would have been absolutely blown out by the Russell Celtics (it's hard to even comprehend how superior they were by modern standards, but one good way to start is to recall that they had HOF players coming off the bench), and soundly beaten by the mid-'80s teams. They might have stretched the series to 6 games against the early/mid-'70s Celtic teams, but only if they were at their absolute best and got very lucky. The '81 Celtics team (when Bird & Co. were still a little young, and Tiny was sorta old) is the only group the Bulls would have had a fighting chance against.

[shobe_81]

LOL the Bulls team would destroy the Celtics

They have a lock-down defender in Pippen who would just own Pierce

And then they also have Rodman who would do very well rebounding wise and guarding KG


Even the 01 Lakers would own last years Celtics let alone comparing the Celtics to the 72 win Bulls team

There would be 0 answer for Shaq, Perkins would be fouled out in the 1st quarter and then it would be pretty much over.

[Joselo16]

I don't know about not having a chance against the 01 Lakers, yeah ther would be no answer for a 28 year old Shaq (besides hacking him which seems to work) but who would guard KG? Horace Grant? Pick one of the two scorers (Allen or Pierce) to match up with Bryant (who wasn't as complete of a player as he was last year), the other one would own the likes of Rick Fox, Robert Horry, and Ron Harper, and we all saw how the Rondo, Fisher match up went so Lue would have to cover Rondo, and I still like the match up in Rondo's favor (even though Lue did a heck of a job with AI). So I don't know 01 Lakers owning 07 Celtics, but then again you are a Laker fan and I am a Celtics fan hence our views.

To be the man you have to beat the man! So if the C's want to be considered better they must beat the record and win it all. I seriously don't care as long as we get the title. It would be the same thing as last years Patriots great record but nothing to show for it!


I like all these hypothetical match ups!!!

[kobeaki]

They would both lose to the 1986 Celtics or the 1987 Lakers.

INDEED.

[kobeaki]

I don't know about not having a chance against the 01 Lakers, yeah ther would be no answer for a 28 year old Shaq (besides hacking him which seems to work) but who would guard KG? Horace Grant? Pick one of the two scorers (Allen or Pierce) to match up with Bryant (who wasn't as complete of a player as he was last year), the other one would own the likes of Rick Fox, Robert Horry, and Ron Harper, and we all saw how the Rondo, Fisher match up went so Lue would have to cover Rondo, and I still like the match up in Rondo's favor (even though Lue did a heck of a job with AI). So I don't know 01 Lakers owning 07 Celtics, but then again you are a Laker fan and I am a Celtics fan hence our views.

To be the man you have to beat the man! So if the C's want to be considered better they must beat the record and win it all. I seriously don't care as long as we get the title. It would be the same thing as last years Patriots great record but nothing to show for it!


I like all these hypothetical match ups!!!

put all of "hatred" down a second, that would be a great series to watch, seriously....farck that would be fun, regardless of outcome...

[EJay33]

Scottie Pippen is the most overrated player in NBA history. No doubt he was a great defensive player, but, aside from that, having MJ drawing double and triple coverage every night helped to make him. Paul Pierce is much better in every area of the game, though I know the majority would disagree with me. Pippen might get the edge in defense, but only because he was a physical anomaly -- like Rondo.

I don't know if the current Celtics team could beat those Bulls, but the 86 Celtics could, in my opinion. As well as the 87 Lakers.

I don't know if you are old enough to remember this, but when Jordan was playing baseball for those few years, Pippen led the Bulls to 55 wins and the Eastern Conference finals, where they lost to the Knicks.

While I don't think Pippen is as overrated as 3LeafClover, I do think he is overrated to a degree. The guy was not a leader and 3LeafClover has a point, the NBA was pretty weak then...does anyone think Houston would have won their titles had Jordan been playing then?

Pippen was great and a HOFer, no doubt, but I don't think he was quite as good as he's been made out to be...

You guys have really forgotten how good Scottie Pippen was. The Bulls didn't win 72 games, 6 championships, and be considered one of the greatest teams of all-time because Michael Jordan was on the same team as a bunch of over rated guys. The reality is that The Bulls won 57 games and an NBA Championship with Michael Jordan, then the very next year they replaced MJ with Pete Myers and Scottie led them to a 55 win season and game 7 of the ECF. For that season it was almost consensus that Scottie was probably the best player in the NBA. I'd recommend watching some old all-star games so that you can see how much more athletic he was than the rest of the players or maybe watch some old Bulls games so that you remember that not only did the Bulls always have the best player on the court, they always also had the second best player on the court, too.

[EJay33]

Yes, I remember very clearly the watered-down Eastern conference that season Jordan floundered in minor league baseball. Those were the leanest years of NBA basketball I can remember, as far as talent pool. Scottie Pippen was an established All-Star and the beneficiary of officiating trying to maintain the Chicago Bulls' brand-name.

Please. You're suggesting that there was a vast NBA conspiracy spanning 2 entire NBA seasons to prop Scottie Pippen's Bulls up? You've got to be kiddng me. For starters, there were 27 teams back then so you could argue that the league is more watered down now. The only thing that changed about the NBA in those 2 years was that Jordan was playing baseball. A huge loss for the sport, but it doesn't mean that a 55-win season then is any less impressive than a 55-win season now.

Scottie was 3rd in the MVP voting that year and at the time many felt that he should've won it and that he was the best player in the NBA. He was the reason why the Bulls never had to have a traditional point guard and could instead have shooters like Armstrong, Paxon, and Kerr out there or post players like Harper out there. Scottie handled PG duties and played 3 positions as good as anyone in the league at the time. He could score, pass, rebound, defend, and was more athletic than anyone not named Michael Jordan. We're comparing a 3-time all NBA First Teamer, along with 2 Second Teams and 2 Thirds to a guy with 3 All-NBA Third Teams. Scottie was also All-NBA 1st Team Defense for 8 straight years, while playing more positions than Pierce. He was even a huge part of those really good Blazers teams that just missed because of Shaq and Kobe.

Pierce is our guy and a great story, but the reality is that his teams toiled in mediocrity for much of his career. His story is not yet finished, but I'd be surprised if he retired more highly regarded than Scottie Pippen. If you think Pierce was leading Horace Grant, BJ Armstrong, and Toni Kukoc to a 55-win season and a game 7 of the Eastern Conference Finals you're out of your mind.

The Chicago Bulls were a freakin' religion in the late 90s; David Stern would have given his left testicle to keep that meal ticket intact. If you don't know that NBA officials always have and always will subtly effect in-game proceedings in terms of enhancing "chosen" players' performances, then I don't want to be the one to tell you there's no Santa Claus. Leon Powe collides with Lebron James at midcourt -- who gets the whistle? Is that a "vast NBA conspiracy," or is it just common knowledge?

I never said Scottie Pippen wasn't a great player, I said he was overrated. Today's NBA does have a couple more teams, but they also have a much richer talent pool from which to draw, with all the European transplants as well as the influx of underclassmen.

I'm sorry, but I'm not impressed by the competition MVPippen couldn't quite overcome in the Eastern Conference Semifinals: a passed-his-prime Patrick Ewing and John Starks? Don't make me go back there, it's depressing. The lowly Leastern Conference... it's no wonder the Bulls won 72 games a few years later.

You don't want to say Pierce is better because you don't want to seem like a homer. If Scottie Pippen started his career being the only good player on a lousy team then he would have been just another Ron Artest-type, playing out his days in relative obscurity. Instead, he played for the most marketable franchise in the history of modern sports, alongside the best shoe salesman of all time.

Pierce couldn't lead Toni Kukoc, Horace Grant, and BJ Armstrong to a 55 win season in the current NBA, but if you factor in the watered-down 94 EC, along with zebras having a vested interest in maintaining the league's marquee team with its established superstar, at a time when the front office was apoplectic about having to fill Superman's shoes following his departure, then, yes Paul Pierce could have done it.

Pippen couldn't make it by Shaq and the unconquerable Penny Hardaway when Jordan came back. Sure, MJ missed much of the season and was rusty, but that shouldn't have mattered much if Pippen was as great as you say. Fact is, the Magic won that series because, at that time, Penny was the new flavor of the month; "The Next Michael Jordan" in a long line of Next-Jordans. Yes, these guys do get a little help from the officials if it's in the NBA's best interests.

This is the NBA, not the WWF. There is no elaborate fix in place for Scottie Pippen. Do you really think that Stern had all of the NBA refs in a room and told them to make sure that Scottie gets to the ECF? Do you also think that George Bush orchestrated 9/11?

If the NBA was so bad in the 90s then why do we even bother considering Jordan to be the best player ever? Shouldn't Kobe's 3 championships in this golden era of basketball then be considered a greater accomplishment then beating scrubs like Malone, Barkley, Kemp, and Clyde in the 90s?

I think that the NBA peaked in awfulness in the late 90s when we had to watch the Knicks/Heat battle it out. You can hate on Ewing's Knicks all you want, but those are the same teams that gave Jordan a run every single year. If you're going to devalue Scottie because of the quality of the NBA at the time, we might as well downrank MJ, too. Barkley makes the point all of the time: The only reason Charles, Malone, Stockton, Payton, Kemp, Drexler, Miller, and a whole bunch of other guys don't have rings is because they were born at the same time as Michael Jordan. That's it. No need to act like these guys couldn't play.

[EJay33]

Some of those roleplayers that were on Scottie's 55 win team were better then people realize.. I still think he is overrated. I don't put that 55 win team as a superior effort to Pierce's 49 win team..

Now this would be a good time to bring up the argument about watered down NBA that 3LeafClover keeps trying to bring up about the NBA during the 1993-1994 season. The Eastern Conference that year the Celtics won 49 games was probably the worst a conference had ever been in the NBA. I don't want to do the math, but the West must've accounted for 60% of the wins in the NBA that season looking at the standings. The Celtics would've been an 7 seed in the West that year and gotten swept by the Spurs in the first round and instead they were a 3-seed in the East and got to the conference finals against the #1 seed - a legendary (that was sarcasm) Nets team featuring Jason Kidd, Kenyon Martin, and Keith Van Horn, who then went onto the finals and got swept with no resistance by the Lakers.

The Celtics 49-win Eastern Conference Finals season barely garnered enthusiasm on this forum. Everyone here, and this forum is known for its homerism, knew that that season was a charade and that the Celtics were not legitimate contenders. I remember the popular opinion being that we should blow the team up even after that surprising and fun run. So the point is, yeah, Scottie's 55-win season was a superior effort to Pierce's 49 win effort because the conference was in much better shape back when Scottie did it.

[EJay33]

...don't forget coaching in a 7 game series...

...Phil Jackson vs. Doc Rivers...

...who has the edge?...

You know, we were worried about this last year. Phil got wupped soudly. He had Radman on Pierce, remember? I wonder if he would've tried Jud Buechler on Paul if this matchup were to actually happen.

[diforman]

While I think this thread is WAY too premature... (remember last year ESPN had that link up comparing the celtics to that bulls team game by game... and we started worse last year than this).... I do think it would be quite cool if this debate continued right up until the celtics are sitting on 71 wins.

I think hollinger had a great point when he said the fact that the cavs are so good this year might push the celtics to that next level, and force them to scratch and claw for home court. I think both teams will end up with at least 60 wins, and one team might be close to 70 (67, 68, 69). It sure will be fun tracking it all year though.

[BlameTheRefs]

Bulls. Come on guys... I love this Celtics team, but that Bulls squad was ridiculous.

[Joselo16]

If the NBA was so bad in the 90s then why do we even bother considering Jordan to be the best player ever? Shouldn't Kobe's 3 championships in this golden era of basketball then be considered a greater accomplishment then beating scrubs like Malone, Barkley, Kemp, and Clyde in the 90s?

Not to harp on it but I wouldn't consider those Kobe's 3 championships, remember he was the Robin or in this case the Louis Lane to Superman AKA Shaq (hence the finals MVP for all 3 rings). Michael carried his teams along with Scottie to six championships 2 three-peats, but there was never any question who was the best player on those teams he just made everyone better (all this from a person that rooted against him and for Seattle and Utah on the second 3 peat).