The bench!

[klemen4]

I must write some words about our bench, i know a lot has been discussed but...In the start of the season everybody said how much Posey and PJ will be missed. I thought T. Allen will somehow be able to defend and create offense so James would not be missed. On the other hand I knew that Obriant and Baby cant improve so much that they can replace PJ.

25 games are behind us and watching all 25 games (Yes, Im a fanatic ) here are my thoughts:

HOUSE: I think he is our best bench player, had little problems with his shot the first 10 games, but has been great in last games. He is excellent shooter, for me top 5 in nba (Allen, Hamilton,...), so ideally would be to play him the way we play R.Allen, but also as pg he tries hard, gives us energy and tries to move the ball.

POWE: He really is a fighter, gives everything, excellent defense(the way he draws offensive fauls for opposing team), limited on offense but he finds a way to the basket and often beat opponent with his strength. He is missing that mid range shot, must improve that.

For me those two are the only two I would not move in a possible deal.

T.ALLEN: It is really disappointing how he isnt able to be consistent. I like his will, energy, his penetration to the basket, his defense but he just cant produce every game and I really doubt this will ever change. He had some really nice games, bot also some really bad performances. He is ok option for sg, but wont be able to stop Lebron. This is the only thing that matters, playoff and we must have a team able to beat Cleveland and than lets say Lakers. That is why he is my sacrifice in a trade that can get us real sf.

DAVIS: He tries, he really tries but I doubt he can play a lot better. Ok he shot some good mid range jumpers in last games but I dont know. Another important thing is that he is only able to produce with first unit, when he plays with 2 unit he is lots, tries to much in offense. I like him, but we could do better here in center position.

SCALABRINE: I try to like him, but he really is our 15th player. As Davis only can play with first unit, has some solid defensive moves, but some time opponents just abuse him. His trees from time to time and some defense just arent enough.

PRUITT, OBRIENT, WALKER, GIDENS: 4 prospects to work with. I like all of them but now is championship time and we must sacrifice one or two for the present.

CASELL: Our assistant couch...no more word needed.

As we all know we lack real backup center and small forward. I would put also backup point guard on the list, because I would really like to move House to sg.

My dream scenario would be to:
1) Cut Cassel
2) Sign Mutombo
I must admit I was a little sceptic about him, mainly because his age, but looking the way he played last year in absence of Yao Ming and the fact that he is hungry for a ring makes me believe that he would be great addition.
3) Make some sort of package(2for1,3for2) of Scalabrine, T.Allen, Davis, Gidens to get us great, tall, defensive minded small forward who can also hit a tree.
4) Sign Marbury
Some would call me crazy but I like him because he can create his own shot (none of our bench can do that, ok T.Allen on a good day), he was in excellent condition strating the year and because he has something to prove.


MY bench:
MARBURY
HOUSE
DEFENSIVE MINDED SF
POWE
MUTOMBO

Of the youngsters I think Pruitt, Walker and Obrient have the must potential, so I would try to keep them.

Lets see what Ange will do, but despite 23-2 we need to upgrade our bench before playoffs.

As it looks Ainge will first try to trade Giddens for a future pick, probably to make room for Mutombo. And if Marbury would be interested we will cut Casell.

MARBURY
HOUSE
ALLEN
POWE
MUTOMBO

looks like we could really have a bench like this.

[MyInsatiableOne]

I agree except I'd put Tony up there with Eddie and Powe. Davis has been horrible, but like you said, he's trying his hardest...he is who he is, crap.

[BillessuR6]

I pretty much agree with everything.

[Gant]

I do not agree on Tony Allen. When he's healthy he plays really well. When he's recovering from an injury (like now) he struggles.

Also Baby is a lot more important to the bench than stats indicate. He pounds the hell out of other teams and is always knocking them out of position.

This is one of the better benches in the league. Take a look: http://www.82games.com/0809/STSORT16.HTM #6 in aggregate +/-

The Celtics do need a tall back up center like Mutombo or PJ Brown, and after Dikembe arrives they're all set.

[cfan79]

I agree for the most part, but I think we should hold onto Tony. Baby, O'Bryant and Scala can go though.

[Dave_From_NB]

This is one of the better benches in the league. Take a look: http://www.82games.com/0809/STSORT16.HTM #6 in aggregate +/-

Ok, but the Lakers, Cavs and Spurs are all listed as having better benches. I think we need to measure our bench against the championship contenders.

I don't know what the actual trend is, but we seemed to have a very efficient bench early in the season, and they seem to be drastically falling off lately. When Pruitt takes only 3 shots but outscores the rest of the bench combined as happened last night, that's a concern.

[rambo_ortega]

me too... so evident on how the bench gives up leads and even kg sees it already (big baby incident). the game against utah was just bad bench play.

we keep the winning run and explore options on getting the bench better.

[Zin5]

Does anyone know anything about Damien Wilkins of OKC? Like, would he be a decent Posey replacement? The guy's 6'6", which can guard most SFs, but how is he defensively overall? It looks like he can knock down the three ball too. He's also in a situation where OKC might want to move some older players for potential. So if he were worth it, could we maybe get Petro too and swing a deal like Scal/Baby/Giddens for Wilkins/Petro? Petro doesn't look like anything special, but would at least do better than Baby at the 5. That also gives us another roster spot for some like Marbury and maybe Cassell would take a seat to fulfill some of your fascinations with the wiggle.

Rondo/Marbury/Pruitt
Ray/TA/House
Paul/Wilkins/Bill Walker
KG/Powe/Fatoine
Perk/Petro/POB

Just an idea, not sure if it's worth the time to think about. Wilkins seems to be one of only a few guys that we could have a chance at through trade, seeing as most other big, bench SFs are already signed (like Posey and Ariza) and with contending teams that wouldn't be willing to give them up.

[avi623]

Apparently chemistry doesn't win championships, washed up top 5 picks from over a decade ago do, however.

FIrst, Starbury had a lower PER than Cassell last year. He is not good anymore. He will do all the things that drove people nuts about Sam last year, except he is crazy and still thinks he is an all-star. Cassell on the other hand is a locker room leader (assistant coach?). Bringing in Marbury will only serve to kill Rondo's confidence. We are defending champs and 23-2, you shouldn't mess with a such a good thing on the hope that Stephon Marbury is sane. Plus, it would kill my own dream of him never winning a playoff series.

I agree that POB was a waste. I was disappointed watching him getting pushed around by Javale McGee a few nights ago. Scal can go too, if they want to eat his contract. I wouldn't move BBD. He moves better than Powe on the defensive end. He has had a rough start to the year, but he shouldn't go unless there is a good return coming back.

[GuyClinch]

Actually TA has been our best bench player. His defense has been out of this world with a PER against of 11.2 at the SG spot while performing at 17.0 PER level himself. Granted the guy hasn't been hitting his jumpers but you really can't complain about 8.8 points on 48% shooting for a bench player.


I think Powe and Houes have been okay off the bench as well. Its beyond the elite 8 that this team suffers. I still think that we could find someone better then Scalabrine to take his minutes and someone better then Davis to take his.. That would bump those guys down to "situational" use rather then rotation players.. That's where they belong.

As much as I think Davis is a bad player - his 350lbs of weight can be useful if just to rough up opposing teams some as he will get in there and play emotionally for like 5 minutes before he gets tired.

[DorfonCeltics]

I'd really like to see us get Travis Outlaw from Portland. He is the perfect Posey replacement. While his defense might not be quite as strong, it's close and he might be a better 3 pt. shooter than Pose. I know his minutes are getting pinched a bit this year so I wonder if he's available for the right price. Would Portland do Baby and Giddens for Outlaw then we could sign Mutumbo or Mourning to be our backup Center?

[ParticleMan]

Tony has been our best bench player, hands down. He has been more consistent than House this year (or have you forgotten how Eddie was shooting like 20% from 3's 10 games into the season?). Tony is also our best defensive player off the bench. His Roland, PER, whatnot, all are clearly ahead of any other bench player, and the only guy who's close is Powe.

That said, I'd love to get Travis Outlaw. Not a great defender, but he's a good athlete with size. I'd do that trade.

[humblebum]

I guess I'll just continue to stick up for Glen Davis, he keeps on earning minutes, playing hard, and he really is a physical presence in the paint. If the Celtics bring in Mutumbo... Davis is going to get a lot of time at his natural position as a PF, where he'll be more effective offensive rebounding and finishing around the basket. Plus, as a second year player he still has a lot of room to grow in terms of gaining confidence and skills.

Tony Allen, I believe, has been hands down the best bench player. Just watch him defensively. He stays in front of his man, he plays the passing lanes, he is great closing out on shooters, he's a good help defender. Offensively he's opportunistic and an aggressive slasher.

Powe and House have performed solidly in the pinch of energy and offense off the bench roles. They're both excellent situational subs with some limitations against certain matchups/teams.

Mutumbo would completely solidify the club, allowing Doc to use Davis and Powe in more situational roles... which is really what they're capable of.

Pruitt and Cassell will fight it out for 5th backcourt player. Beyond that, I think that the Celtics are absolutely rock solid.

[GuyClinch]

I guess I'll just continue to stick up for Glen Davis, he keeps on earning minutes, playing hard, and he really is a physical presence in the paint. If the Celtics bring in Mutumbo... Davis is going to get a lot of time at his natural position as a PF, where he'll be more effective offensive rebounding and finishing around the basket. Plus, as a second year player he still has a lot of room to grow in terms of gaining confidence and skills.

Glen Davis is one of those fan favorites like Turiaf or Walter McCarty that seem to be loved far beyond their actual skills on the court. He is 'earning minutes' - yes he beat out POB. <g> He plays "hard" what and House, Powe, TA don't? It's the NBA everyone plays hard for the most part.

Most of the objective numbers point to a high level of suckitude from the guy. Not to say he doesn't have his "moments" but so does POB or Brian Scalabrine. These guys are NBA players..

[Jammer]

You are really undervaluing Tony Allen.

In terms of NET PER the Celtics SG's (Ray Allen and Tony Allen)
are the second best SG group in the NBA, behind Miami, ahead of the Fakers.

OK is an understatement for Eddie and Powe,
they are great for bench players,
Tony is fantastic for a bench player.

The problem with the Celtic bench is that after Tony, Eddie and Leon;

the rest of the bench is a marathon behind these guys.

The gap to Glen Davis, Brian Scalabrine (who have among the lowest PER's in the NBA);
coupled with their getting creamed on DEFENSE during their time on the court,
means that the Celtics are at a huge disadvantage whenever either one
is on the court.

Until the Utah game, Doc Rivers had never really trusted Pruitt
over House or Tony, basically because his performance was so far behind
Eddie and Tony (in terms of NET PER, it was an ocean apart)
that Doc never went to Pruitt until he had to,
for 9 minutes, limiting Rondo to 39 minutes.

Mutombo solves a problem at backup C against Cleveland, the Fakers and Houston;
the question is do they trade Scal + one other guy for Joe Smith;
or try to sign Marbury (if bought out, I think he's auditioning for the Fakers right now);
or try to pry Jason Williams out of retirement;
or dangle O'Bryant and Giddens in search of a pick, cash or player.

[Dirty Water]

I think the bench has been really good defensively. But offensively as a unit they are completely lost. So many times Eddie House has to bail them out with a three. Tony Allen has looked compeltely lost out there the last few games. Big Baby has been overall useless this season. Powe has been serviceable. Christ, Scalabrine and Pruitt have shown me more than Big Baby this year.

[Cyclical]

If the Celtics bring in Mutumbo... Davis is going to get a lot of time at his natural position...

... on the bench.





I'm being harsh but he'll definitely see his minutes diminished.

[Kids Are Alright]

I agree w/ TA being the best on the bench, I like him playing with the 1st stringers, he's able to get to the hoop at will and he's right up there with Rondo when it comes to the passing lanes.

We just need one of the big three on the floor with the bench or they can only do it defensively.

OBTW, Scals is not the answer.

[humblebum]

I disagree Cyclical and it would seem that Doc does as well. Davis has consistently been the first big off the bench for the Celtics, subbing for both Perkins or Garnett. Due to the lack of a true backup Center, Davis has been forced into that role with Powe as his undersized frontcourt mate. I think if Davis is allowed to move back to his natural position of Power Forward he'll be much more productive because he'll be shooting over PF's rather than C's. Also his defense has been really, really solid on the post and he understands his role. Powe is a situational sub who's more or less useless against tall, strong defensive players. He suffers from mental lapses on the defense (something you never see out of Davis) and his only defense against big 4's and 5's is to flop, in the playoffs you're not gonna get that call.

Davis has the opportunity to carve out a role even if the Celtics acquire Dikembe and I can almost guarantee that he'll still be seeing floor time if/when that happens. (Of course Davis will play less minutes but so will Powe, IMO, they'll both be used situationally.)

[MyInsatiableOne]

If the Celtics bring in Mutumbo... Davis is going to get a lot of time at his natural position...

... on the bench.





I'm being realistic and he should definitely see his minutes diminished.

and fixed!