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If we keep winning, will the Clippers trade Kaman?

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Re: If we keep winning, will the Clippers trade Kaman? 

Post#21 » by StutterStep » Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:30 pm

How do you like this trade with the Bulls?

Nocioni + Tyrus for Kaman + Davis...

It would solidify the Clips bench and the salary situation is basically a wash.

For the bulls, Kaman starts and Davis is a non-factor regarding salary and playing time.
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Re: If we keep winning, will the Clippers trade Kaman? 

Post#22 » by loflin3hree5ive » Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:19 pm

Chris will play next to Randolph for at least the next three years. Camby will get dealt. Here's an idea I'm sure nobody will like but will land us the second best rebounding SF in the league.

Clippers Get:
Gerald Wallace
Raja Bell
1st Round Pick (At least)

Bobcats Get:
Marcus Camby
Al Thornton

Skinner can fill the defensive role needed alongside Randolph. Clippers become a much better perimeter defense team and solve the rebounding issue at the wing positions.

Kaman/Skinner/Davis
Zach/Davis
Wallace/Ricky/Collins
Gordon/Bell/Collins
Davis/Hart/Taylor*
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Re: If we keep winning, will the Clippers trade Kaman? 

Post#23 » by ClipperEric » Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:10 pm

I'm sorry but I just can't accept giving up Al Thornton unless its for a real superstar. Gerald Wallace is great, but he's not going to get us to the next level. If we package Kaman, Thornton and some picks, can we get a true superstar in here?
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Re: If we keep winning, will the Clippers trade Kaman? 

Post#24 » by Ben » Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:11 pm

I would really like to get Kaman on the Bulls, but I think that that earlier proposal involving the Clips and Bobcats would be good for both teams.

BTW, every board overrates some of its players (some Chicago fans do it with Tyrus Thomas, some with Thabo Sefalosha), and in it's in that vein that I see some of your attitudes toward Thornton. He's fine, and was good for the draft spot where you got him, but he's also 25 and isn't going to be a vastly different player down the road from the way that he is now. (Huge improvement rarely happens after the age of 25-- you can look it up.) And who he is now is a guy who put up a 12.7 PER last year and a 12.8 PER this year. As you know, 15.0 is average. IMO Thornton is better than those numbers, but not way better. An OK TS% for a small forward, poor rebounding numbers.

I say that not to diss Thornton to your board but to say that if you could get Gerald Wallace for him and Marcus Camby you should definitely do it. Maybe the Bobcats would have to add a very little bit extra, but not much. (Raja Bell is just filler at this point. He's lost a step defensively and isn't good on offense.)

And no, Kaman plus Thornton isn't going to net you a superstar. I'll bet that Toronto would be very interested in Kaman plus Thornton, but primarily as pieces to put alongside Bosh, which means that Bosh wouldn't be coming back in return-- and he's the only superstar on that team. I'm sure they would give you Jermaine O'Neal plus something else of value for those two, except that O'Neal makes so much that the salaries wouldn't come close to matching.

By the way, how about this trade involving the Clips, Bulls, and Milwaukee?:

Clips trade: Chris Kaman, Jason Hart, Rickey Davis
Clips get: Michael Redd

Bulls trade: Kirk Hinrich, Joakim Noah, Cedric Simmons
Bulls get: Chris Kaman, Jason Hart, Rickey Davis

Bucks trade: Michael Redd
Bucks get: Kirk Hinrich, Joakim Noah, Cedric Simmons

Bucks' coach Scott Skiles always had a man-crush on Hinrich when Skiles coached the Bulls. Kirk would be a combo guard with the Bucks, sometimes playing PG and sometimes SG, and would play better defense than Redd. Noah could play PF alongside Bogut or backup C, and if the Bucks can dump Gadzuric for an expiring contract then Noah would come in even handier. Plus, Skiles seemed to like Noah fairly well. Simmons is simply an expiring contract and is filler.

LAC:
Baron/ Redd/ Thornton/Zach/ Camby starting 5
Eric Gordon backing up the 2 and gaining experience

Pretty strong starting 5, in my opinion.

Thoughts?
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Re: If we keep winning, will the Clippers trade Kaman? 

Post#25 » by ~aZnPrYdE87~ » Wed Dec 24, 2008 5:55 am

as much as i like redd's game, that doesn't address the biggest issue with this team: depth. if push comes to shove and kaman must be traded, then i'd want a package of good bench players, one of which should be a borderline starter who can bring a spark off the bench (a combo guard and/or a versatile big man). anyways, i don't really see a trade involving kaman happening any time soon.

i also disagree with the implication that thornton is a poor rebounder. clippers currently have two of the top 5 rebounders in the league and they are 10th in rebounding. if you factor in the fact that clippers play in one of the slowest paced offenses in the league, then thornton is at least an average rebounder. anyways, i'm not sure if directly using PER to compare thornton to other SF's in the league is fair. imo, clippers have one of the most stagnant and predictable offenses in the league and a majority of thornton's touches are isolation plays. you're right that he's no superstar and i'm not sure if him and kaman can net a superstar either but i would certainly take al over gerald wallace anyday.
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Re: If we keep winning, will the Clippers trade Kaman? 

Post#26 » by loflin3hree5ive » Wed Dec 24, 2008 5:57 am

I agree with virtually all of your post. However, I wouldn't want to stunt Gordon's growth by putting Redd infront of him who in under contract for a very long time. I'd personlly rather deal Thornton.
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Re: If we keep winning, will the Clippers trade Kaman? 

Post#27 » by Ben » Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:49 pm

~aZnPrYdE87~ wrote:as much as i like redd's game, that doesn't address the biggest issue with this team: depth. if push comes to shove and kaman must be traded, then i'd want a package of good bench players, one of which should be a borderline starter who can bring a spark off the bench (a combo guard and/or a versatile big man). anyways, i don't really see a trade involving kaman happening any time soon.


Great-- then how about Larry Hughes, Joakim Noah, and Thabo Sefalosha for Kaman, Hart, and R. Davis?

Hughes is playing his best ball in years, with the best TS% of his career. Plays good defense, too, and can play the 2 or 3 with a few minutes backing up the 1.
Noah should be an Anderson Varejao type of player.
Thabo's good defensively, can play the 2 or 3, and also is posting the best TS% of his career (.544).

But I agree that there's a better chance that Kaman won't be traded than that he will.

~aZnPrYdE87~ wrote:i also disagree with the implication that thornton is a poor rebounder. clippers currently have two of the top 5 rebounders in the league and they are 10th in rebounding. if you factor in the fact that clippers play in one of the slowest paced offenses in the league, then thornton is at least an average rebounder. anyways, i'm not sure if directly using PER to compare thornton to other SF's in the league is fair. imo, clippers have one of the most stagnant and predictable offenses in the league and a majority of thornton's touches are isolation plays. you're right that he's no superstar and i'm not sure if him and kaman can net a superstar either but i would certainly take al over gerald wallace anyday.


Poor is definitely an overstatement, and if I said that then I shouldn't have. But he's not particularly good, either. If you would take Al Thornton over Gerald Wallace any day then you and I disagree strongly. 17.4 career PER versus 12.7 career PER (17.8 vs. 12.8 this year), and only 1.5 years' difference in age. I don't want to give you the impression that I rely exclusively on PER, b/c I hate when guys do that, but it's simply the briefest way to convey the relevant info in this case. And it seems kind of arbitrary to dismiss PER in Thornton's case. Zach Randolph and Marcus Camby both have high PERs with the Clips. Should we dismiss the notion that it's b/c they've played well? Should we assume that many other players on poor teams will have PERs far below their actual merit? (What about Gerald Wallace? The Bobcats sure haven't run a good offense in recent years, but he's still had high PERs.) Finally, if you think that Thornton's below-average PERs are due to the Clips style of play, I don't know why you're so insistent on keeping him with the Clips.

I believe that most NBA fans and GMs would agree with me, but who knows, maybe time will bear you out.
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Re: If we keep winning, will the Clippers trade Kaman? 

Post#28 » by bill curley II » Wed Dec 24, 2008 5:14 pm

The Warriors can offer Stephen Jackson and Don Nelson. Nellie's a must in the deal however, and we don't want Dunleavy.
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Re: If we keep winning, will the Clippers trade Kaman? 

Post#29 » by ~aZnPrYdE87~ » Thu Dec 25, 2008 12:42 am

Poor is definitely an overstatement, and if I said that then I shouldn't have. But he's not particularly good, either. If you would take Al Thornton over Gerald Wallace any day then you and I disagree strongly. 17.4 career PER versus 12.7 career PER (17.8 vs. 12.8 this year), and only 1.5 years' difference in age. I don't want to give you the impression that I rely exclusively on PER, b/c I hate when guys do that, but it's simply the briefest way to convey the relevant info in this case. And it seems kind of arbitrary to dismiss PER in Thornton's case. Zach Randolph and Marcus Camby both have high PERs with the Clips. Should we dismiss the notion that it's b/c they've played well? Should we assume that many other players on poor teams will have PERs far below their actual merit? (What about Gerald Wallace? The Bobcats sure haven't run a good offense in recent years, but he's still had high PERs.) Finally, if you think that Thornton's below-average PERs are due to the Clips style of play, I don't know why you're so insistent on keeping him with the Clips.


first off, i'll admit that my knowledge of PER and other modern NBA statistics is pretty shaky and i take back my statement that using PER is unfair just because of how bad this team has been. but i know that opportunities (offensive looks, defensive assignments/schemes, etc) are significant factors contributing to PER, and it's my belief (mostly from watching games) that randolph and camby are placed in much more advantageous situations compared to thornton. he definitely has his faults: offensive inconsistency, terrible assist/turnover ratio, and pretty bad help defense numbers. i can't pass the buck on his inconsistency, nor his turnovers but imo his numbers reflecting his help defense and his passing ability are products of dunleavy's offensive/defensive schemes and the personnel surrounding thornton.

i want to keep thornton here because i believe he's a significant talent that can flourish with the clippers but adjustments (like, firing the worst head coach in the league) have to be made. like many others here, i am not a big fan of this team's style of play.
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Re: If we keep winning, will the Clippers trade Kaman? 

Post#30 » by PlinkingPanda » Thu Dec 25, 2008 4:54 am

bill curley II wrote:The Warriors can offer Stephen Jackson and Don Nelson. Nellie's a must in the deal however, and we don't want Dunleavy.


Sorry but Mr. Sterling and Dunleavy have to be involved in order for this trade to work out for us. :roll:
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Re: If we keep winning, will the Clippers trade Kaman? 

Post#31 » by thanumba2clippersfan » Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:25 pm

Thornton and Kaman are going to be kept
I've been an LA Clipper fan since 1998 and that will never change. I hate our new logo and jerseys!
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Re: If we keep winning, will the Clippers trade Kaman? 

Post#32 » by nyk2423 » Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:06 pm

With Kaman coming back soon should I be looking to rid my self of Zach and Camby of fantasy teams???
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Re: If we keep winning, will the Clippers trade Kaman? 

Post#33 » by jgustav1 » Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:32 pm

nyk2423 wrote:With Kaman coming back soon should I be looking to rid my self of Zach and Camby of fantasy teams???


Probably not, I see Kaman playing maybe around 25 mpg as a backup and possibly traded before the deadline.
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Re: If we keep winning, will the Clippers trade Kaman? 

Post#34 » by JJ LoDuca » Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:16 pm

Kaman won't be traded, at least not until the summertime. Dunleavy likes him too much, and generally, there's more tradebait available in the summer. I see around 25 mins off the bench in his future though. And hey-- I wouldn't be surprised if Dunleavy went C- Kaman PF- Camby and SF- Randolph at some point. It's Dunleavy.
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Re: If we keep winning, will the Clippers trade Kaman? 

Post#35 » by jgustav1 » Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:33 pm

Dunleavy could well be fired before the summertime, he may need to make another trade before then in an attempt to save his job.
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Re: If we keep winning, will the Clippers trade Kaman? 

Post#36 » by PlinkingPanda » Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:44 am

jgustav1 wrote:Dunleavy could well be fired before the summertime, he may need to make another trade before then in an attempt to save his job.


There's some recent news about Mike Miller being available. I have a feeling Dunleavy is gonna try something.
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Re: If we keep winning, will the Clippers trade Kaman? 

Post#37 » by madmaxmedia » Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:29 am

Fishy~McFish wrote:
jgustav1 wrote:Dunleavy could well be fired before the summertime, he may need to make another trade before then in an attempt to save his job.


There's some recent news about Mike Miller being available. I have a feeling Dunleavy is gonna try something.


That would work.

No fault of Kaman at all, but ZBo is the main in the paint for the Clippers- he's simply a much better offensive weapon and has carried the Clips ever since joining. Kaman's touches are going to drop significantly, or he's going to play backup. If these are the case, I think we get better value for the team if we find a good trade, as opposed to keeping Kaman in a limited role. I think wheeler-dealer Dunleavy has probably at least considered this.

If we were to get a Mike Miller, then I would put Thornton in with the second unit to give them a little juice. A first-team unit with Diddy, ZBo, and Mike Miller can definitely score. Too bad Davis is injured AND suspended, he could help out a lot with the second unit. Maybe if he were playing like he's capable of, we wouldn't need to trade for someone like Miller.
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Re: If we keep winning, will the Clippers trade Kaman? 

Post#38 » by Moe_B8 » Thu Jan 1, 2009 12:27 am

how about RIP Hamilton for Kaman?
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