Bulls & Kings Talking Trade

[dozencousins]

KIE so i can be clear i am very open to the opinions on others
what i do appreciate is the point of view of people i do not appreciate it if a member from another board such as LETO coming from another board though they are free to do so but to do it knowing they are not here to discuss & point out views but they are only critical of others as if others here are ignorant wich we are not !
Any person with common sense knows that when a team like chicago proposes a trade to us for a veteran like miller that it would take more than just an expiring contract when the salaries dont match etc.

Never the less i dont post alot as i have many other obligations as i mentioned before i like to read other posts when they are intelligent or if they are so way off base its laughable
i think you moderate well but i think you are misreading me here just my opinion i dont know anyone personally from this board as well as nobody knows me !

I dont claim to know everything about trades in this case i do but because everyone demands links etc. it is pointless for me to say why i know something in this case my posts before a perfect example of non believers are the kings member who posted before you in reguards to his comments

there are some good posters here like yourself kie,smills,ballings to name a few

i am not here to start with anyone if you feel i was i will say sorry now but thats not what i was doing

thankyou

[SacKingZZZ]

Its strange the ways in which you Kings fans have these utopian dreams about getting one of the Bulls young bigs. It ain't happening for Brad "older than dirt" Miller. They aren't going to sacrifice their rebuilding program to trade for a stop-gap old guy.

Just as much as the "utopian" views of who and or what those "young bigs" represent to you. You are talking about two lotto bigs that have seriously underwhelmed in the area of their individual growth as players and show no signs of becoming legit forces in this league in any other area other than hustle. That's 2nd round material bud. Now they may become really good hustle players, or even very important parts to a winning mentality, but lets not pretend these are some of those every 5-10 year kind of prospects, not even close. Both have the makings of being quite solid, and there is a chance they become more than that, but if so, it's pretty well hidden and leaning towards the unlikely.

[Leto]

Its strange the ways in which you Kings fans have these utopian dreams about getting one of the Bulls young bigs. It ain't happening for Brad "older than dirt" Miller. They aren't going to sacrifice their rebuilding program to trade for a stop-gap old guy.

Just as much as the "utopian" views of who and or what those "young bigs" represent to you. You are talking about two lotto bigs that have seriously underwhelmed in the area of their individual growth as players and show no signs of becoming legit forces in this league in any other area other than hustle. That's 2nd round material bud. Now they may become really good hustle players, or even very important parts to a winning mentality, but lets not pretend these are some of those every 5-10 year kind of prospects, not even close. Both have the makings of being quite solid, and there is a chance they become more than that, but if so, it's pretty well hidden and leaning towards the unlikely.

Lets not pretend you even watch the Bulls, bud. I have a pretty good grasp of what and who Tyrus and Noah are and their potential. And, let's also not pretend this has a thing to do with trading one of them for washed up has-been old people named Brad Miller, bud. It ain't happenin' , bud. There is nothing "well hidden" about Tyrus and Noah's play over the last month. If it is "hidden" in your eyes its because you havn't been watching nor paying attention, bud.

[Leto]

Alright, let's try to get this back on actual constructive conversation. The only thing speaking in absolutes does is that it makes you look foolish when you are eventually wrong on something

Leto, the fact that your opinion that the Bulls won't trade any of their young talent for Miller differs from that of Kings fans does not mean that Kings fans have "utopian" views for insisting on wanting Miller. The simple fact is that Kings fans know that management won't trade Miller this year if they can't get a knock-out deal (meaning some combination of young prospects, picks, significant salary relief)...and that is known from direct statements made by our GM. You may have valid points that it is not in the best interest of the Bulls to move young guys for Miller, which means that a deal between the Kings and Bulls could be unlikely. But that doesn't mean that it is wrong for Kings fans to point out..."speculate"...what kind of return would fit in with what we know the Kings would want for Miller.

And bdgking, you need to be more open minded to the opinions of others. This board is here for people to debate different points of view. Not agreeing is fine (actually preferable) as long as the disagreements are voiced with respect to the opinions of others.

Its not that I have valid points so much as it's what Bulls insiders have already said. I.E., they aren't even interested in Miller. My points are the rationale I garnered from the statements of guys in the know. I.E., people like Sam Smith who regularly communicate with Bulls brass.

It's probably because you guys think you can get more for Miller than expirings. That may be true (I doubt it, hence the term "utopian") but it won't be coming from the Bulls because we are in the same boat---rebuilding.

[KingInExile]

OK...you've said what you have to say...time to move on. It's looking more and more unlikely that there will be a productive exchange of ideas, so might as well just agree to disagree. I will say that using terms like "washed up has-been old people named Brad Miller" while chastising someone because you think they don't watch Bulls games and don't know the potential of Bulls' young players just kills your potential credibility. It makes me think that all you're interested in is insulting Kings players and arguing with people. When you couple that with your continued insistence on referring to the Kings expectations for a return when trading Miller as "utopian", it is obvious that you're just interested in bashing rather than discussing.

[Clint Eastwood]

i as a bulls fan for one would give noah in a deal for miller. miller is in his last few good years, but there is a benefit to the development of the bulls to having a guy like him in the lineup. i do think noah and his youth have more value than miller as he may be a nice up tempo center in this league. i personally think noah sucks, but i dont think gm's in the nba view him as i do. so here is what i propose. you add a little value to the deal in salmons. he has no permanent role on your team, and is signed l year longer than hughes, so it may be a plus to both teams to swap them. he could be insurance at the 2 for us if we cant sign gordon. martin is your 2 anyway, and i dont see salmons as your long term 3.

hughes and noah for
miller and salmons
http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.ph ... id=4891345

[Leto]

OK...you've said what you have to say...time to move on. It's looking more and more unlikely that there will be a productive exchange of ideas, so might as well just agree to disagree. I will say that using terms like "washed up has-been old people named Brad Miller" while chastising someone because you think they don't watch Bulls games and don't know the potential of Bulls' young players just kills your potential credibility. It makes me think that all you're interested in is insulting Kings players and arguing with people. When you couple that with your continued insistence on referring to the Kings expectations for a return when trading Miller as "utopian", it is obvious that you're just interested in bashing rather than discussing.

Its your boys that start it. Your guys, like bg, begin with the insults and expect no one to respond. Or, SacZZZ sayng that Noah and Thomas are nothing more than "2nd round picks". Are those things not insulting so long as they come from Kings fans? Do you have that much of a skewed view of reality? I could care less if someone thinks Noah and Thomas are 2nd round picks, thats their opinion that isn't shared by anyone. So what? Furthermore, its your fans who continually ignore reports like KC Johnson's that show NO INTEREST in Brad Miller because they have a "utopian" vision of what they want the world to be like.

Miller is available but I haven’t heard the Bulls express much interest thus far. The feeling is if they do go after a big man, it will be the Clippers’ Chris Kaman, who reportedly still isn’t being shopped.

---KC Johnson, Chicago Tribune

There is nothing insulting about the word "utopian". It simple means you have an unrealistic view of the world or events. E.G., continullay insisting that Noah or Tyrus Thomas is going to be traded for Miller without a shred of evidenciary support IS utopian and does not comport with the reality of reporting nor the reality of the situation each team is in.

I don't care about Brad Miller and I have never come here and insisted, for example, that Miller, Hawes and Thompson would be traded to the Bulls for Hinrich and Nocioni--despite any news to the contrary. What's obvious is that Kings fans who visit this forum are completly unrealistic--whether you like it or not.

[pillwenney]

i as a bulls fan for one would give noah in a deal for miller. miller is in his last few good years, but there is a benefit to the development of the bulls to having a guy like him in the lineup. i do think noah and his youth have more value than miller as he may be a nice up tempo center in this league. i personally think noah sucks, but i dont think gm's in the nba view him as i do. so here is what i propose. you add a little value to the deal in salmons. he has no permanent role on your team, and is signed l year longer than hughes, so it may be a plus to both teams to swap them. he could be insurance at the 2 for us if we cant sign gordon. martin is your 2 anyway, and i dont see salmons as your long term 3.

hughes and noah for
miller and salmons
http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.ph ... id=4891345

Salmons has more than a little value. He's producing at a stellar rate right now for his contract, and will not just be thrown into a deal just to up our outgoing value a little.

Its your boys that start it. Your guys, like bg, begin with the insults and expect no one to respond. Or, SacZZZ sayng that Noah and Thomas are nothing more than "2nd round picks". Are those things not insulting so long as they come from Kings fans? Do you have that much of a skewed view of reality? I could care less if someone thinks Noah and Thomas are 2nd round picks, thats their opinion that isn't shared by anyone. So what? Furthermore, its your fans who continually ignore reports like KC Johnson's that show NO INTEREST in Brad Miller because they have a "utopian" vision of what they want the world to be like.

How is that an insult? It's an opinion, and you can disagree with it, but it's anything but an insult.

And the report you quote is certainly a nice piece of evidence for your argument, but it hardly seems conclusive at all--especially since there have been reports from the Kings side as well. There just hardly seems to be enough evidence to be as sure of yourself as you are. Some here should probably be less sure of themselves, but for the most part, we're just talking about the possibility.

[SacKingZZZ]

Its your boys that start it. Your guys, like bg, begin with the insults and expect no one to respond. Or, SacZZZ sayng that Noah and Thomas are nothing more than "2nd round picks". Are those things not insulting so long as they come from Kings fans? Do you have that much of a skewed view of reality? I could care less if someone thinks Noah and Thomas are 2nd round picks, thats their opinion that isn't shared by anyone. So what? Furthermore, its your fans who continually ignore reports like KC Johnson's that show NO INTEREST in Brad Miller because they have a "utopian" vision of what they want the world to be like.

Did I say they were "nothing more than 2nd round picks"? What I was referring to was that if their main role in the NBA is to be a "hustle" player, those are typically players that teams find in the 2nd round of the draft. I also did acknowledge that they do have the potential to be more than that, but thusfar haven't shown much of anything with consistency. And I have watched the Bulls pretty regularly since the '01-'02 season just for your info.

And there is nothing "utopian" about it, we are simply responding to the reports that there was interest. Sure there may not be, but it's nothing more than talk from our end of things anyway.

[coldfish]

At the end of each day I still think Brad ends up a Chicago Bull by the deadline, and I think the deal will be:

Brad
2nd rounder in 2009

for

Gooden
Noah

I'm not saying whether either team should do it, but I think that'll be the deal that happens, sometime in late January.

I got drawn into this due to a discussion on the trade board.

There is just no reason whatsoever for the Bulls to do that. The Bulls are in a situation similar to the Kings in that they are building for the long term. That makes a trade between the two teams nearly impossible because neither team is going to want to give up prospects or take on salary.

In this situation, the Bulls both give up a prospect (Noah) and they take on salary. For what reason?

One other thing no one is discussing is Ben Gordon's status. He has been the Bulls' best player and he is unrestricted. The Bulls need to let Gooden expire so they can pay Ben while staying under the tax limit. If they do the above trade, they guarantee that Gordon walks for nothing.

Unfortunately, the Bulls need a big man too. With Gooden gone, the Bulls will have not much up front. That's why Miller's name comes up. He is a competent big who is signed until 2010. If the Bulls could get Miller for bad contracts, I'm sure they would do it, but I'm not going to insult Kings fans with an offer because I know Sacramento isn't going to take on salary.

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith_081222.html
If anyone cares, there is the Chicago media view of Miller to Chicago.

[Clint Eastwood]

i as a bulls fan for one would give noah in a deal for miller. miller is in his last few good years, but there is a benefit to the development of the bulls to having a guy like him in the lineup. i do think noah and his youth have more value than miller as he may be a nice up tempo center in this league. i personally think noah sucks, but i dont think gm's in the nba view him as i do. so here is what i propose. you add a little value to the deal in salmons. he has no permanent role on your team, and is signed l year longer than hughes, so it may be a plus to both teams to swap them. he could be insurance at the 2 for us if we cant sign gordon. martin is your 2 anyway, and i dont see salmons as your long term 3.

hughes and noah for
miller and salmons
http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.ph ... id=4891345

Salmons has more than a little value. He's producing at a stellar rate right now for his contract, and will not just be thrown into a deal just to up our outgoing value a little.

Its your boys that start it. Your guys, like bg, begin with the insults and expect no one to respond. Or, SacZZZ sayng that Noah and Thomas are nothing more than "2nd round picks". Are those things not insulting so long as they come from Kings fans? Do you have that much of a skewed view of reality? I could care less if someone thinks Noah and Thomas are 2nd round picks, thats their opinion that isn't shared by anyone. So what? Furthermore, its your fans who continually ignore reports like KC Johnson's that show NO INTEREST in Brad Miller because they have a "utopian" vision of what they want the world to be like.

How is that an insult? It's an opinion, and you can disagree with it, but it's anything but an insult.

And the report you quote is certainly a nice piece of evidence for your argument, but it hardly seems conclusive at all--especially since there have been reports from the Kings side as well. There just hardly seems to be enough evidence to be as sure of yourself as you are. Some here should probably be less sure of themselves, but for the most part, we're just talking about the possibility.

and noah has "more than a little value". he is on a rookie deal, is 7ft, and needs developing time. this trade would be miller and his 1.5 years left for hughes and his 1.5 years left. both are solid veteran contributers. noah for salmons is fair, and despite salmons playing well, he will go back to bench play when martin returns. hughes can play that role for you if you give up salmons. the deal doesnt hurt anyone financially, and it opens up pt for your 2 young bigs and throws another young big in the mix who your gm reportedly would have taken over hawes. but as is, noah and expiring for miller makes no sense from the bulls end.

for the record though, i think noah personally sucks, so i would trade noah and gooden for miller. i doubt the bulls would though.

[SacTown Kings]

No way do the Kings trade Salmons for Noah. i don't even know why theKings would want Noah,
I don't really care for him. His potential is Scott Pollard with even less offense, we can find that elsewhere no reason to give up someone like Salmons. Now if it were for Tyrus I might do it, I think Tyrus has much more potential than Noah. Oh and BTW Salmons will not be goig to the bench when Martin returns. Salmons has been the starter all season long, Salmons plays the sf position mostly. Garcia will be the one going back to the bench.

[Smills91]

At the end of each day I still think Brad ends up a Chicago Bull by the deadline, and I think the deal will be:

Brad
2nd rounder in 2009

for

Gooden
Noah

I'm not saying whether either team should do it, but I think that'll be the deal that happens, sometime in late January.

I got drawn into this due to a discussion on the trade board.

There is just no reason whatsoever for the Bulls to do that. The Bulls are in a situation similar to the Kings in that they are building for the long term. That makes a trade between the two teams nearly impossible because neither team is going to want to give up prospects or take on salary.

In this situation, the Bulls both give up a prospect (Noah) and they take on salary. For what reason?

One other thing no one is discussing is Ben Gordon's status. He has been the Bulls' best player and he is unrestricted. The Bulls need to let Gooden expire so they can pay Ben while staying under the tax limit. If they do the above trade, they guarantee that Gordon walks for nothing.

Unfortunately, the Bulls need a big man too. With Gooden gone, the Bulls will have not much up front. That's why Miller's name comes up. He is a competent big who is signed until 2010. If the Bulls could get Miller for bad contracts, I'm sure they would do it, but I'm not going to insult Kings fans with an offer because I know Sacramento isn't going to take on salary.

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith_081222.html
If anyone cares, there is the Chicago media view of Miller to Chicago.

I'm making a prediction, not justifying the deal and there IS reason for Chicago to do this. They get a bonafide starting center that will help them win for the next 1.5 years. Joakim Noah's looking worse and worse by the game. I mean, REALLY bad.

[dozencousins]

To add a little to what Smills is saying Bulls fans fail to realize that if they traded us Gooden & T.thomas as an example instead of Gooden & Noah then they get Brad for at least 1 1/2 years and thus he can be a mentor to Noah the same as he has for Hawes & Thompson that alone is invaluable think what Noah could become he would at least be far better than what he is now !

[coldfish]

I'm making a prediction, not justifying the deal and there IS reason for Chicago to do this. They get a bonafide starting center that will help them win for the next 1.5 years. Joakim Noah's looking worse and worse by the game. I mean, REALLY bad.

Well, I agree about Noah. Tyrus has shown some flashes but Noah has been horrible. Same with Deng. Deng may be the worst contract in the NBA right now.

That being said, I really don't think the team is trying to win. If they are, it sure doesn't look like it. Even so, making this trade guarantees that Ben Gordon is gone and if you have been watching the Bulls, you know him and Rose are the team. The Bulls would be horrible next year. Miller's passing would be worthless because the team wouldn't have anyone to make a shot. That's the same reason why Rose's assist numbers are low.

I would be willing to give up assets to get Miller if Sacramento would take back some salary because then the Bulls could re-sign Gordon. I don't see Sacramento doing that.