OJ Mayo Trade

[bman]

Disclaimer: This is a late night tired thought...

After the first bit of this season I do not think that it was bad to trade Mayo. I simply think if we were going to trade him anyway, we traded him for the wrong player. I like Kevin Love as a basketball player. I like his game a lot. I think he will be good. If we were going to trade Mayo for somebody at this point it looks like we should have traded him for Brooke Lopez, then kept Chalmers in the second round.
Lopez is averaging 10pt 8rb and 2bl per game. He is the ideal defensive center that we need next to Al. Chalmers would give us the perimeter defense (2spg) we need and allow foye to play sg. Not saying that this was an option, but it is interesting to look at.

[collin_k41]

Shoulda coulda woulda..we have Miller and Love and that's it.

[Klomp]

Shoulda coulda woulda..we have Miller and Love and that's it.

[revprodeji]

threads like this are useless. if we had lopez we would likely have him coming off the bench.

it is not love's fault he is not being put in a situation to succeed.

[TheProdigy]

I agree with the original poster. I think Kevin Love has a great future in the NBA. The problem is that we traded a future perenial all star(Mayo) for a guy on the downside of his career(Miller) and a guy that plays the same position as our best player(Love).

Sure this thread can be viewed as useless because the deal is already done, but for the love of God don't blame this guy for his pessimism. McHale has destroyed this franchise. How can you draft a guy in the top 5 of the draft that plays the same position as Big Al? Down the road, our starting front court will be KLove and Big Al. Does anyone honestly expect us to win anything with those guys down low? Both of the them have nice post moves on offense, but they both suck at defense. KLove is redundant to Big Al's game. In my opinion the recipe for success is to have one guy that is dynamic on offense, and one guy that intimidates the opposition from coming into the lane on defense.

The good news is that McHale is finally where he belongs, alongside his players on the bench. He is a far better basketball mind than he is an eye for talent. Perhaps if McHale sticks around for a while and our new management makes good use of all their draft picks we have a chance to do something in the future. Just don't hold your breath. Go Vikings.

[revprodeji]

u lose all credibility to your argument when you say klove and al are redundant on offense. they are very complimentary. strength of the one is the weakness of the other.

most nba teams lack a legit startin center. having 2 power frwds that fit each other work fine in the current nba.

[TheProdigy]

KLove is redundant to Big Al's game. In my opinion the recipe for success is to have one guy that is dynamic on offense, and one guy that intimidates the opposition from coming into the lane on defense.

Actually I never said their games were redundant on offense. I was referring to the fact that both of them are good at offense(and sure they can be complimentary on offense), and bad at defense. Therefore, yes they are redundant in that regard. We need someone that can guard the opposing team's best big man and pick up the ticky tack fouls if necessary. Big Al needs to use his energy efficiently doing what he does best. He is neutralized when he goes up against someone like Yao or Howard. That being said though, do you really want either of them being guarded by Kevin Love?

2 years down the road, wouldn't this be a great starting lineup?
Hasheem Thabeet assuming we draft him
Al Jefferson
Corey Brewer
OJ Mayo assuming we didnt trade him
Randy Foye

It just gets tiring knowing that most of the posters on this board would have a better track record in the draft than the front office of the Wolves have had.

[4ho5ive]

We just need to keep Love taking uncontested 15 foot jumpers when Al kicks out of the double team. Love needs to play high. End of story.

[4ho5ive]

For the first couple years of Thabeets career i liked how he slowly got better. But the more I watch him this year, the more i dont see a lot of potential for him to get much better. I see him having problems in the NBA. Dont get me wrong, i never wanted him for OUR pick, but now, im starting to dislike the idea of moving back into the lotto to get him. I just dont see him as a great young building block.

[revprodeji]

I think love I going to have a much better pro career than thabeet.

dakid. love is being used wrong. we agree there. but also looking back on a draft and picking over is cheap. anyone can do it.

jefferson is hardly neutralized on yao. he has had great games against him. against orlando it was not love or al but our wings that got in trouble. al and love are positive things for this team. I see no reason why they could not exist together. nba defense is about desire and smarts than shot blocks. look at how love defends duncan. great for a rookie. just give him time and his game fits great with al. my issues with him are all things he can grow on. improve conditioning to finish stronger and move into rotation faster. develop confidence in the face up game.

kid is a kid still. he will be a good player in time.

[canucklife21]

i strongly agree that u cannot waste a top 5 pick for a player who plays same postion as our star guy.. Big al is a great player and a future allstar however i dislike it how he must defend the best post player on the other hand of the floor this only takes away from this game.. i agree with earlier post saying we cleary have no choice due to the lack of height of love.. i feel it was a wrong trade to make on draft day.. you must add a shot blocker and a rebounder also with height to see big al game come to full effect.

[shrink]

I agree with the original poster. I think Kevin Love has a great future in the NBA. The problem is that we traded a future perenial all star(Mayo) for a guy on the downside of his career(Miller) and a guy that plays the same position as our best player(Love).

"Future perenial All Star?" Geeze! Here's the numbers, and the quote from the Wages of Wins guys.

http://www.wagesofwins.com/MayoDec2008.html

When we look at the individual stats - reported in Table Four - we see that Mayo has been an above average scorer. But with respect to every other statistics (except personal fouls), Mayo is below average. Consequently, he has not yet developed into a “good” player.

He says Love > Mayo

Oh, and lets see what John Hollinger has to say about Mayo?

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/ ... rce%3despn

Hollinger points out that Mayo's had an unearthly FG% through a limited number of games, and if he drops down to merely a "good" FG%, he hardly looks impressive. He continues to say Love > Mayo.

Now, I don't normally say anything when the sour grapes people laud Mayo and knock Love. Mayo has been a good scorer so far. But lets not start making him a "perennial future all star" until he starts putting up overall numbers superior to the AVERAGE nba SG, OK? At the time of the trade, Rose and Beasley were locked as the two sure-fire players, and Mayo was the high risk, high return kid that had the potential to be a superstar, but probably wasn't getting there. The only person who we should be discussing All Star games or Rookie of the Year about is Mike Miller, who, at the time of the trade, was an alternate for the US Olympic team.

[mandurugo]

You do remember that Mayo is putting up these numbers as a rookie? That he has done things that no other rookies have done? That Love has not been impressive in his limited minutes? I don't understand why you keep insisting that Love is better than Mayo - it is really incomprehensible to me. We'll see who the better player is over their career, but it is not a contest right now.

[Zeitgeister]

I agree with the original poster. I think Kevin Love has a great future in the NBA. The problem is that we traded a future perenial all star(Mayo) for a guy on the downside of his career(Miller) and a guy that plays the same position as our best player(Love).

"Future perenial All Star?" Geeze! Here's the numbers, and the quote from the Wages of Wins guys.

http://www.wagesofwins.com/MayoDec2008.html

When we look at the individual stats - reported in Table Four - we see that Mayo has been an above average scorer. But with respect to every other statistics (except personal fouls), Mayo is below average. Consequently, he has not yet developed into a “good” player.

He says Love > Mayo

Oh, and lets see what John Hollinger has to say about Mayo?

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/ ... rce%3despn

Hollinger points out that Mayo's had an unearthly FG% through a limited number of games, and if he drops down to merely a "good" FG%, he hardly looks impressive. He continues to say Love > Mayo.

Now, I don't normally say anything when the sour grapes people laud Mayo and knock Love. Mayo has been a good scorer so far. But lets not start making him a "perennial future all star" until he starts putting up overall numbers superior to the AVERAGE nba SG, OK? At the time of the trade, Rose and Beasley were locked as the two sure-fire players, and Mayo was the high risk, high return kid that had the potential to be a superstar, but probably wasn't getting there. The only person who we should be discussing All Star games or Rookie of the Year about is Mike Miller, who, at the time of the trade, was an alternate for the US Olympic team.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/players/ ... son%3d2009

David Thorpe:
"I was one of the "experts" who liked Minnesota's trade of Mayo for Love. In layman's terms, however, it looks like what you would call a "swing and a miss."

[shrink]

You do remember that Mayo is putting up these numbers as a rookie? That he has done things that no other rookies have done? That Love has not been impressive in his limited minutes? I don't understand why you keep insisting that Love is better than Mayo - it is really incomprehensible to me. We'll see who the better player is over their career, but it is not a contest right now.

I'm not surprised its "incomprehensible to you" when you don't comprehend what I've written. I have never written that Love is better than Mayo, and further, I do not keep "insisting " it.

What I posted was the article from some of the best stat guys in the NBA universe, who have demonstrated that this rush to annoint Mayo is way too premature. I don't know how you argue with those stats .. oh wait .. you didn't.

It doesn't make sense for one person to say "look, he'll be a perenial all star" and the next to say, "well, even if his numbers aren't up to the average PG, remember he's just a rookie!"

You'll have to brief me on these things Mayo has done that no other rookie has done. As for Love, has any other rookie ever led the NBA in OREB's/MIN? And even that is sort of an unfair isolation of Love, who contributes to his teams wins through an overall game making other people better.

[bman]

To clarify:

My original post was not born out of pessimism. I love the wolves. Nor was it frustration with Love. I agree with what was said earlier in that he is not being put in a position to succeed. I think he has a good future in the league, and I will also go out on a limb and say that he plays good defense against his position.
The original post was a simple observation of team needs, and rookie progression up to date. Notice it did not contain any, "love sucks, we should have kept mayo" propaganda. I understand the frustration with threads that constantly bring that up. I was simply observing that if we were using mayo as leverage, a deal with NJ may have given us a player that we needed more than love, in the form of a defensive minded center.

[shrink]

To be fair, the CHANCE for Mayo to be a superstar was always there. But keep in mind, this was a CHANCE. He also had the CHANCE to be a big bust. Nobody was argueing that Perenial All Star" OJ Mayo was a better pick than Derrick Rose. You remember hoiberg at the lottery right, wanting to murder that sick kid's teddy bear because our lottery pick was 3, and not 1 or 2?

Finally, OJ Mayo's last game, where he went 4-for-20, is pushing his percentages down towards normalcy, as Hollinger said would probably happen. Mayo's FG% is a pedestrian FG 45.3%, and his 3PT% has dropped below 40% as well. Volume shooters (Mayo's averaging 38 mpg), are going to produce points (19.9 PPG), but that doesn't make them great.

I'm not saying Mayo has no chance to become a great player, because he does. However, I think that the casual fan (and media's) overwhelming preference for scoring over team wins is getting the already over-hyped Mayo far more press than he deserves, and its coloring the opinions of many people, particularly the traditional bashers, and those that don't want to take an even-handed look at the numbers. We don't know what Mayo will become, and 25 games do not make a career. However, nobody should be saying "perenial All Star" as far as I'm concerned.

[TheProdigy]

I'm not saying Mayo has no chance to become a great player, because he does. However, I think that the casual fan (and media's) overwhelming preference for scoring over team wins is getting the already over-hyped Mayo far more press than he deserves, and its coloring the opinions of many people, particularly the traditional bashers, and those that don't want to take an even-handed look at the numbers. We don't know what Mayo will become, and 25 games do not make a career. However, nobody should be saying "perenial All Star" as far as I'm concerned.

Funny that you bring up team wins, because last I checked Memphis has more than we do. The bottom line is that Mayo is producing and Love simply isn't doing it consistantly. Sure he leads the league in offensive rebounding, but how many of those rebounds are off of his own misses or from being blocked? He's shooting less than 40%... Mayo is shooting a higher percentage from 3 than Love does from the field.

This whole argument is very reminiscent to the Roy/Foye trade. Some people just have a very hard time accepting that we get fleeced in nearly every deal.

[Devilzsidewalk]

this trade might turn out good though, obviously Love isn't averaging 8 rebounds a game rebounding his own misses, he's just a really good rebounder. He's shooting 39%, but of course that's going to go up. He's great at getting to the line and he's a good shooter once he gets there - 102 free throw attempts in only 702 minutes; Mayo has played 513 more minutes than Love, but only has 12 more free throw attempts. That last one was one of my main flags about OJ, you gotta win playoff games attacking the rim. Wade, Kobe, Lebron, Roy, Ginobili, Pierce - these guys put so much pressure off the dribble and they're the types of guys you see in the Finals. If your main perimeter guy is Ray Allen or Michael Redd; shooters; than you're going to have to rely on clutch jumpers every time down court. I think OJ is a great third scorer type.

Thats why I'm high on Harden too, I think he's gonna be a guard that can hit from outside and also attack the basket and pressure the defense.

[Winter Wonder]

Happy New Year! (though it seems like a same old discussion)

I went into this season not wanting Love, not being a fan, and not liking the overall fit.

Somethings have definitely changed. I have become a big fan of Love. I don't think he will ever have guady numbers, but the hustle plays are great. He just keeps plays alive diving across the floor or going after the offensive boards. He is far better than I thought he would be (hats off to those who were on his badnwagon pre-draft) and I do like his game. He has shown more on court overall ability and potential contributions to team play than Mayo and Love has helped this team probably more than Mayo would be able to in the long term.

The problem is is fit. Always will be. Not saying that he can't and won't be useful and couldn't be in our long term plans; it's just that it is hard to justify selecting a player with a top five pick (yes I know we didn't select him and we also received Miller plus in the trade, the trade was a good value for MN) that plays the position of your team's supposed best player. Love will not have the height to be a true center. Jefferson will be forced to that position while the two are on the court. I am not sure either can properly defend the position in the long haul, and let's face it, defense is where the Timberwolves are hurting. I realize it is the wings just as much if not more so than the post, but having good post defense and good help defense from the 4 and 5 positions is quite important. Love is solid with help defense positioning and seeing things, but isn't always athletic enough to actually stop the opponent from scoring, ie shot block or getting there to take the charge and not a blocking foul.

I like Love, I like Jefferson, I like Love and Jefferson on the offensive side of the court..... I hate seeing the team struggle on the defensive side due to poor wing defensive, lack of help defense, and no real final defensive threat in a true center to block or intimidate those driving to the lane (Tony Parker anyone? Though he gives most shot blockers fits).

I will always be an advocate of having a true center, and in the NBA, that is a 7 footer that can rebound on both sides, defend other bigs, and be a somewhat average threat on the offensive side (be it putbacks or actual post moves). We have who we have though, and as a coach, you should learn to make the most of it and play to your teams strengths. Love should be getting more time and he has to be able to hit his 15 footers consitently at this level.