"2nd Unit" Usage: its not "who" but "how"

[billfromBoston]

Many on this board have argued incessantly about the issue of the bench. I feel many of you are missing the most obvious part of this argument - the bench is at its worst when there are 4 or 5 "2nd unit" players in at once. Taking a simple look at the lineups and minutes distribution of the bench from last year to this, it becomes quite clear that there is one undeniable factor in this equation that has changed - more bench players are playing more minutes together this season as compared to last.

Last season Doc Rivers didn't use an entire "2nd Unit" with nearly the frequency he does now. The rotations were far more staggered and limited, which allowed 2 or more starters to be on the court with the top bench options - Posey, House, Powe....

The problem with the bench's inconsistency is mainly a byproduct of their limitations in talent and skill set when played together as one group - there is no playmaker to set up easy baskets through dribble penetration and there is no true center to clog the middle and draw attention when hitting the boards sucking another big out of the inside with the jumper.

If Powe, TA, and House were consistently playing with KG and Rondo on the court they'd be much more productive - Powe would not have to contend with as many help defenders cutting off his move to the middle, House would have more kick out looks, and TA would be able to slash without having so much attention focused on him out on the perimeter.

The REASON Doc isn't using the starters more with the bench is because he knows that:

1. the starting unit has 3 aging stars
2. the starting unit is the best in the league

In order to maximize the time this starting unit plays in games and increase the chances of them being healthy and fresh come playoff time, Doc is using a true "2nd unit" in an attempt to limit their minutes.

Unfortunately, the "2nd Unit" is essentially missing two key elements that would greatly increase their production consistency. It's going to be up to Ainge to rectify that situation or Doc will have to mix the units more in order to increase bench production - however, the team IS 28 - 5, so I'm not sure if the urgency is as big as many are making it....

...come playoff time, the team is going to mix players and increase the minutes of the best, so this whole "bench crisis" is much more of a regular season conundrum than it is a true team killing concern...they'd be substantially better with a Joe Smith and a Stephon Marbury type adding depth to the squad, but relative to how the team is going to play its rotations in the playoffs, I don't see these additions as "mandatory for title success."

If Boston gets a quality veteran F/C who can hit a J and function in the defense, they'll be ready for a title defense. They don't need a big "splash" addition, just a minor tweak...the current top reserves will, (and have) look(ed) better when complemented by starters.

Now, does this mean that Powe/TA/House are the best 6/7/8 men in the league? No. But each of these players has proven he can be productive individually and it is CLEAR that the respective holes in their games (Powe strictly post, TA only slash, House only shoot) are being accentuated by the missing elements surrounding them. When they've played with the starters they've done much better as complementary pieces - we will see this again in time, take heart...

[JellyBean]

Exactly what I'm thinking. Our bench players are non multi-dimensional so without Paul or Ray (both slashers and can shoot the outside jumper) the opponents can shut them down.

[UGA Hayes]

Yeah, its sort of hard to get mad at our losses b/c I'd rather play the starters less minutes and suffer bench players playing bad. Yesterday was a good example of needing to put our starters back in earlier in the game, that is if the game was that meaningful. I'm not too worried, b/c when the important games start Doc will be playing the bench less.

[CHryptic]

Bring on Joe Smith!!!!

[armageddon]

But it may still be "who".

It's time to give Pruitt the court time to see if he can be the full time backup point guard - House is absolutely not a point guard. House can shoot, and does make good passes, but he's useless on a second unit. Pruitt may give equal shooting to what House can plus much more.

Also, TA is not a small forward, he's not even tall enough to guard the shooting guards we'll see in the playoffs. I don't know where he really fits. Bring in either of the D-league guys to backup Pierce, could even rotate them every couple of weeks to keep them focused and aggressive.
Pruitt, Giddens, Walker should be able to add scoring to the drought prone bench players.

We do still need more size. Give Courtney Sims from the D-league a contract.

[elrod enchilada]

great analysis BfB.

By my calculations, if Doc plays Rondo 40 mpg, Perk 36 mpg,and the Big 3 38 mpg in the playoffs, he should be able to have two or even three starters on the floor at all times.

I still think a vet pick-up would be very nice.

[Bad-Thoma]

Nice post Bill. Personally I think as much as a better fitting f/c could help the second unit having another shooter on the floor besides Eddie could really benefit Powe, every time I see Pruitt and Eddie on the floor together it looks less like the 2nd unit is facing a college zone just clogging up the middle. Frankly I'd rather see a small ball unit of Gabe, Eddie, Tony, Paul/Ray, and Powe than the combo of BBD and Powe (I know I'll get blasted for the dreaded small ball reference from someone ), the second unit's defense can't be a lot worse than it has lately and the small ball unit that I mentioned could really space the floor, opening up drives/drive and dishes for Tony and the post for Leon.

[Jammer]

BiIl, anyone paired in a front court with KG generally does OK.

But,
Portland has Oden (6' 11"), Aldridge (6' 10") and Pryzbilla (7' 0");
Cleveland has Illgauskas (7' 2") and Varejo (6' 10"); and the
Lakers have Gasol (7' 0"), Bynum (7' 0") and Odom (6'10").

There's no way 6' 6.25" Leon Powe, 6' 7.75" Big Burger and 6' 8.5" Perk can handle them,
even when paired with Garnett.

A simple fix like 7' 1.25" Dikembe Mutombo would have won last nights game,
because even at 42, Mutombo has a higher standing reach than any of the participants,
and has a good chance to block some shots.

The team is said to be interested in 6' 9.5" Joe Smith,
because he has a jump shot. Well, what are they waiting for? A Buyout?
Make the damn trade already to reduce the wear and tear on the starters.
It was obvious July 1, the rest of the league understands
the Celtic offensive and defensive schemes to better exploit them,
plus a number of contenders have elevated their team defense based on the Boston example.

Doc's right to keep the starters together, and
he's also right to keep Paul Pierce or Ray Allen in at small forward
with the 2nd unit.

The problem with the second unit is that Ray Allen doesn't get the ball enough in
situations he can do anything with;
Eddie House isn't always on;
teams have figured out to play Tony Allen for the drive; and
James Posey is no longer spreading the floor as the 2nd unit PF
which made it easier for Powe or Big Burger under the basket.

Davis has to be replaced by someone with length and skill,
heck, I would have settled for Patrick O'Bryant or Scal yesterday,
at least I would have thought that Doc was trying to match up with Aldridge and Oden.

And one more contributing scorer off the bench is needed,
since Eddie and Tony are not always "on" (or allowed to be "ON")
whether Marbury, Grant Hill, or Jason Williams out of retirement,
since Doc has about as much confidence in Pruitt as a practice player only
(Celtics should be jettisioning all roster spots except rotation players right now,
unless the front office is CERTAIN a PLAYER resides in any non-contributing check collectors).

The time to make trades was before rosters filled up,
that's another reason why I'm so upset.

For a long time, OKC had 13 players.
Pruitt + Scal at that time for 35 year old Joe Smith was easy, now OKC has 15 players.

Giddens + Davis for 36 year old Grant Hill works, has it been offered?

There's talk of Phoenix throwing in the towel and either moving Nash now,
or not exercising their team option for Nash over the summer
(only $6.5 million of 13 million is guaranteed).

The Celtics have the best starting lineup in the NBA,
and 3 specialists, as you say off the bench
Leon Powe (post game/defender), Tony Allen (wing defender/slasher), Eddie House (shooter).

The trick is finding a 9th, 10th and 11th man that will complement them
(my suggestion is Joe Smith and Grant Hill (both via trade)
and Stephon Marbury (if bought out and willing).

Happy New Year !

-- Jammer

[goulardi]

It's not always about the height of a player but how he plays.

[Jammer]

It's not always about the height of a player but how he plays.

True,
but it's also true
that Powe and Davis
have no chance
against Oden, Pryzbilla and Aldridge or
Gasol, Bynum and Odom, or
Illgauskas and Varejo.

And in Powe and Davis' cases,
it is due to the talent packed within their Tiny frames.
They are as good as they can be; overachievers, actually,
but this is a battle better suited for an improved size/skillset.

Tony and Eddie are as good as they can be,
and within limitations, suceed, just like Leon can succeed;
but more "specialists" are needed, and this was known on July 1
(to a keen b-ball type like Doc, Danny and some of the more astute posters on RealGM).

[billfromBoston]

It's not always about the height of a player but how he plays.

True,
but it's also true
that Powe and Davis
have no chance
against Oden, Pryzbilla and Aldridge or
Gasol, Bynum and Odom, or
Illgauskas and Varejo.

And in Powe and Davis' cases,
it is due to the talent packed within their Tiny frames.
They are as good as they can be; overachievers, actually,
but this is a battle better suited for an improved size/skillset.

Tony and Eddie are as good as they can be,
and within limitations, suceed, just like Leon can succeed;
but more "specialists" are needed, and this was known on July 1
(to a keen b-ball type like Doc, Danny and some of the more astute posters on RealGM).

...maybe in Davis' case, but Powe is more talented than you're giving him credit for - he is far more last year's player from a production standpoint, but they way he's being used is limiting what he can do - he's not allowed to use his face-up jumper and he doesn't get nearly enough post-up touches to develop a rhythm. The fact that he has no PG on the floor with him when he plays and no complementary big to help him is greatly hindering him - from a talent standpoint however, he has a great first step, can dribble the ball, huge hands, great on the touch catch, outstanding finisher after contact....he is a very talented player who has not played 2000 minutes in the NBA nor been allowed to expand/explore his full game - don't lump him in with Davis...

As far as bigs with height go, its not all about height either - Varajao isn't an offensive player, so the fact that he's taller doesn't serve any great advantage and we've seen this - he can't finish well and he doesn't shoot great - solid fundemental defense and a hand in the face is enough....Aldridge is a face-up shooter who will take some rolling hook shots and turn-arounds on the post - those shots are not really challenge-able shots beyond keeping a hand up - when he's on he makes em, when not he misses....

Most team's do not have a back-to-basket offensive threat at the 4 who can truly exploit Powe...mostly when he's beat you see a player making a turn-around or settling for the J after some pump/foot fakes...Powe establishes position early and gets underneath the opponent which causes him to take off-balance or fade shots more often than not...and for all intents and purposes, Powe is nearly 6'8 in shoes - you can't list the other player's heights with shoes and then list him without to emphasize the point - Plus, standing reach factors into this as well, where he makes up more of the gap...Powe probably gives up 1.5 - 2 inches of standing reach to most of the PF's in the league and if he does his work early and bodies up, these players are typically taking the type of shots where that advantage is moot - fallaway, moving hook, step-back - these aren't shots that are blocked frequently, they are best defended when under duress, which he can do.

Powe has handled his assignments at PF quite well defensively in man situations and rarely becomes the focal point of the oponents attack because its much more theory than reality when it comes to scoring on him on the block. Sometimes players of a caliber like Gasol will simply be "on" but they rarely get an easy attempt.

Height is not the concern with me for Powe when coupled with a player who can viably play Center. The problem is when their is no help-side big of any length, (or quality) to assist. Perkins and KG don't do it alone themselves, its the pairing of the two that locks down the lane....Powe is a good help-side defender and a very good man defender, but he can't be expected to anchor the interior when he has no one to guard his back...

The same logic applies to TA and House to a lesser degree. House is simply a specialist, but TA's problems are a lot more mental than physical. He has emotional ups-and-downs that effect his confidence and that translates to the floor. When he is with a Rondo/Ray/KG he becomes an effective scoring weapon because the defenses are spread out. When he's alone as the primary playmaker however, he's vastly easier to defend.

TA isn't ideal for the SF slot, but a 3 man rotation of PP/RA/TA with Scal as specialist is more than passable for the playoffs. I don't see SF as being the primary concern for this team. A center is paramount for improvement, a backup pg would be nice, a SF a luxury - in the case of SF and PG the team has prospects whom they value enough not to clog their developmental path long-term. Center I can't be sure of as POB has done little to quell concerns he brought with him.

I don't buy into to the notion that the team has been "scouted" now - the team was scouted 30 games into last year. The nuances they've added have been scouted now, but the personnel aren't any less effective because their individual skills have been exposed.

[GuyClinch]

Agree with BFB. I'd put it even simpler - playing with BBD makes Powe/House/TA look quite a bit worse then they are. Those guys are all quality bench players in that they bring tangible value to their positions. But stuck in that second unit all their weaknesses are exposed.

[Jammer]

Agree with BFB. I'd put it even simpler - playing with BBD makes Powe/House/TA look quite a bit worse then they are. Those guys are all quality bench players in that they bring tangible value to their positions. But stuck in that second unit all their weaknesses are exposed.

Yes, billfromboston.

Actually, I meant what Pete said.

I like Powe, and Tony, and Eddie;
ther're great for what they are,
but playing them with Davis makes them all look worse than they are.

A true center would solve that,
or someone who can hit a jump shot.

Posey and Powe worked because Posey at PF spread the floor for Powe inside,

PJ and Powe worked because PJ had to be respected for his shot
and Powe could work inside,
while PJ gave length and post D around the basket.

The Celtics are actually better at wing than last year,
playing Pierce, Ray and Tony nearly all the minutes there.

But Powe and Davis are less effective, because Posey and PJ
were better front court mates with Powe and Davis
than Davis and Powe are with each other.

I'm more inclined to want to use Patrick O'Bryant over Davis, now;
because the 22 year old has the potential to be much better than Davis.

Also, not having another guard to call upon to make shots limits Doc in his rotations,
Pruitt is the other player, besides Davis,
who I think needs to be "replaced".

P.S. I did list heights without shoes for all. It's just the other guys really are giants.

[Dave_From_NB]

It's not always about the height of a player but how he plays.

Very true.

However Davis is seemingly being played because he is the right weight for a Big.

It's not always about the weight of a player, but how he plays.

[return2glory]

I agree on the how about disagree on the who.

The who is James Posey. Posey is not here therefore Doc doesn't have has many options as he did last year. Posey was able to play SF and PF. He gave Doc the luxury to go small. Posey gave us the option to play more and better long ball.

Last year when the starters built a 8 point lead, Posey and House on many a nights would hit a few 3's and the lead would go up to 13-16 in a matter of 2-3 minutes. Or if we were down by 5-6, Posey and House would hit 3's and we would be right back in the game and the starters would come in and built the leads. Now the bench comes in and there is no fire power.

Did people forget the line ups of House, Ray, KG, Posey and Powe last year. With that lineup when had 3 great 3 point shooter to open up pace for Powe in the post. Doc had a lot more options with Posey. Now with Posey gone, TA and Davis play his minutes. Enough said.

[billfromBoston]

Floor spacing and playmaking are HUGE problems for the "2nd unit" this year, which is killing their ability to be effective without a couple of starters on the court - this is why the team is looking at a big man who can shoot and possibly a playmaking guard.

I'm pretty sure the team is going to go after Rasheed Wallace next off-season, but that isn't going to be much help right now - a short-term fix should be available to this team however though, so I fully anticipate the team to pick up someone who fits the bill.

What I'm very intrigued to see is whether or not Pruitt can step up and claim a spot as the backup PG - he is still much more of a shooter/scorer than a dribble-drive distributor right now. But he hasn't played a ton of minutes, so i'd like to see if his confidence gets to the point where he will push the envelope...i'm not betting on him doing it, but it'll be interesting to see...

[UGA Hayes]

Is it just me or has Powe's touches seem to have gone way down?

[Slartibartfast]

I've also noticed a decrease in Powe's touches. I know teams are more confident double teaming him knowing that they'll only be giving up 20 footers to TA or Big Baby, but I also think teams have learned not to guard him with 3s and small 4s. Powe has a much harder time scoring against big 4s and 5s, tending to lower his shoulder and pick up offensive fouls.

I hope Raef LaFrentz gets bought out. I remember Sully floating that idea before. He might be/probably is toast, but, if not, his latent skill set is exactly what we need off the bench. He can open jumpers and contest shots. He's also familiar with Doc's standards and style.

Also, I agree with BFB and others who are downplaying the need for a big 3. We haven't really been punished by 3s off the bench. We've been suffering for a lack of a playmaker, lack of interior D, and lack of perimeter shooting. If a big 3 lacked each of those qualities, he wouldn't be any help.

[return2glory]

Raef LaFrentz ? Really? Raef LaFrentz ?

[billfromBoston]

I've also noticed a decrease in Powe's touches. I know teams are more confident double teaming him knowing that they'll only be giving up 20 footers to TA or Big Baby, but I also think teams have learned not to guard him with 3s and small 4s. Powe has a much harder time scoring against big 4s and 5s, tending to lower his shoulder and pick up offensive fouls.

I hope Raef LaFrentz gets bought out. I remember Sully floating that idea before. He might be/probably is toast, but, if not, his latent skill set is exactly what we need off the bench. He can open jumpers and contest shots. He's also familiar with Doc's standards and style.

Also, I agree with BFB and others who are downplaying the need for a big 3. We haven't really been punished by 3s off the bench. We've been suffering for a lack of a playmaker, lack of interior D, and lack of perimeter shooting. If a big 3 lacked each of those qualities, he wouldn't be any help.

Looking at his usage, Powe has gone from a player that did most of his damage off P&R and cuts to one that gets a majority of his shots on post ups. With no floor spacing big and no playmaking dribble-drive penetrator, Powe has been severely limited in what he can do with the 2nd unit.

I believe Powe to be a superior talent to Paul Millsap for comparisons sake - he can actually post up as an undersized 4, where Millsap is still almost exclusively P&R, cuts, and spot-up - but Millsap has taken off this year, mostly because he's gotten all of Boozer's minutes, but he's allowed to play with Okur and Williams - Powe almost NEVER plays with KG or Rondo, instead looking to House and Davis to help him get easy baskets...

If Marbury comes here and dominated the 2nd unit, Powe's production is going to go up exponentially - if they add a Joe Smith or Robert Horry, Powe will just blow up IMO...