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Gazette & Journal grade Packer's season

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Re: Gazette & Journal grade Packer's season 

Post#21 » by El Duderino » Sun Jan 4, 2009 11:49 pm

MickeyDavis wrote:
eagle13 wrote:Both Press Gazette & Journal gave their grades today.
Gazette graded each player. Journal only each unit.



Both papers graded each player.

I guess I could argue with a couple of grades but for the most part they are pretty accurate. McGinn does a little better job in explaining his reasoning.



I could nitpick a few guys, but i didn't have an overall problem with the grades so long as the premise is based just on what they produced this year and things like age and PT aren't factored in much.
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Re: Gazette & Journal grade Packer's season 

Post#22 » by aaprigs311 » Mon Jan 5, 2009 12:13 am

These grades are pretty worthless in my opinion. I could care less how a journalist grades the team. I'm more interesting in MM's assessments.
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Re: Gazette & Journal grade Packer's season 

Post#23 » by ReasonablySober » Mon Jan 5, 2009 12:30 am

El Duderino wrote:He then will have to draft better than he has, particularly on defense.


Ugh...I just spent an hour and a half writing a novel of a reply to this only to find out I was logged out and lost the entire thing.

I went draft by draft, offseason by offseason, addition by addition and looked at where the perceived needs were each season and whether or not they were addressed. Maybe if I'm bored later or I have time tomorrow I'll redo it, but right now I'm just pretty pissed off.

The long and the short of it amounts to the fact that the Packers entered the 2008 offseason with a defensive unit that was top ten (6th in points allowed in 2007) and didn't have many (any?) holes. He must have done something right, either by finding guys in free agency, drafting or retaining the correct guys he inherited.

I'll repost what I did sometime tomorrow. It will become very apparent that the needs were filled as they came up and injuries have taken their toll. Jenkins and Bigby were devastating this season.

I also brought up a point that isn't mentioned. We stayed healthy at WR and QB this season. Say we had taken Merling (who did little this year in Miami) or Phillips and Jenkins and Bigby stay healthy? Now these two don't see the field. What happens if Jennings or Driver go down? Now you're looking at Ruvell Martin starting and Brett Swain has to be brought up to play as a third WR. Or maybe Rodgers goes down?
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Re: Gazette & Journal grade Packer's season 

Post#24 » by El Duderino » Mon Jan 5, 2009 1:36 am

DrugBust wrote:
El Duderino wrote:He then will have to draft better than he has, particularly on defense.


Ugh...I just spent an hour and a half writing a novel of a reply to this only to find out I was logged out and lost the entire thing.

I went draft by draft, offseason by offseason, addition by addition and looked at where the perceived needs were each season and whether or not they were addressed. Maybe if I'm bored later or I have time tomorrow I'll redo it, but right now I'm just pretty pissed off.

The long and the short of it amounts to the fact that the Packers entered the 2008 offseason with a defensive unit that was top ten (6th in points allowed in 2007) and didn't have many (any?) holes. He must have done something right, either by finding guys in free agency, drafting or retaining the correct guys he inherited.

I'll repost what I did sometime tomorrow. It will become very apparent that the needs were filled as they came up and injuries have taken their toll. Jenkins and Bigby were devastating this season.

I also brought up a point that isn't mentioned. We stayed healthy at WR and QB this season. Say we had taken Merling (who did little this year in Miami) or Phillips and Jenkins and Bigby stay healthy? Now these two don't see the field. What happens if Jennings or Driver go down? Now you're looking at Ruvell Martin starting and Brett Swain has to be brought up to play as a third WR. Or maybe Rodgers goes down?



Going into this season i was very concerned about the defensive line, especially DT and DE to a lesser degree once it was becoming more likely that KGB was no longer going to be able to run past left tackles. We were entering the season with no DT's with pass rushing ability and zero depth behind Jenkins/Kampman at end. If one injury to a defensive lineman would render your pass rush as utterly futile, there was a talent and depth shortage. If Rouse was a better player than he is, the Bigby injury wouldn't have been such a killer.

Guys like Jolly, Harrell, and Rouse not developing into the players that i'm sure TT/MM had hoped for this year hurt the defense quite a bit. Mix in Hawk and Poppinga looking like they've reached their ceiling as players, the unit didn't look very talented overall to me, especially along the front seven.
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Re: Gazette & Journal grade Packer's season 

Post#25 » by paulpressey25 » Mon Jan 5, 2009 2:36 am

El Duderino wrote:Guys like Jolly, Harrell, and Rouse not developing into the players that i'm sure TT/MM had hoped for this year hurt the defense quite a bit. Mix in Hawk and Poppinga looking like they've reached their ceiling as players, the unit didn't look very talented overall to me, especially along the front seven.


That was the problem this year. TT's other guys he drafted by and large didn't step up as Sherm/Wolf's guys got old and/or injured.
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Re: Gazette & Journal grade Packer's season 

Post#26 » by ReasonablySober » Mon Jan 5, 2009 2:50 am

Who, having replaced an old guy, hasn't stepped up?

Rodgers, Jennings, Colledge and Spitz were starters on one of the best offenses in the league this season. Who else replaced someone from the old regime and not panned out?
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Re: Gazette & Journal grade Packer's season 

Post#27 » by MartyConlonOnTheRun » Mon Jan 5, 2009 3:04 am

I have no problem trading 1-2 round picks for more day 1 picks, but it gets a point where you are trading down to get picks you know you will have to cut. Like is there any reason to get an extra 7th to draft swain when you know he will be your 6 best WR at most?
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Re: Gazette & Journal grade Packer's season 

Post#28 » by eagle13 » Mon Jan 5, 2009 3:14 am

Many great points made by Dude, PP, DB, etc. I wish TT would read.

TT is going to do what he's going to do whether anyone agrees with him or not. I respect he has his way of how to build a team even if I don't agree with all of it. It’s his baby. He is responsible for success and failure. Sooo... bottom line…

Make the playoffs next year and he deserves accolades. He can even miss the playoffs with a .500 or better record and be sorta OK. But another losing record and he & M3 should be canned.

As for me personally I am OK with TT trading down in draft if it yields. However so far TT’s ability to accurately assess the bpa is nothing more than average. A player he took may be his bpa on his board - but was not really the bpa. Of course this is true for all GMs. TT just hasn’t shown any better or worse than average at assessing talent. Probably he knows this and is why he goes with quantity over high position. However I gotta believe there is someone worth taking at 9 that can impact. IF not I’d do something unconventional.

I believe the Pack is better than this year's record but have 5 glaring weaknesses we all know - pass rush, run defense, OL, Punting, ST coverage units.
I feel we are 4 key players away – DT, DE, OT, P.
Punting can be addressed with low round pick and competition.
Because Pack is close – I feel young vets with demonstrated performance would impact faster than a rookie. Thus I’d try to use draft picks to make trades for key young proven vets = at least 1 DT & 1 OT & also DE if possible - then add rookies at DE, DT & P (& CB) with remaining picks.
Do I expect TT to do that? NO

As for ratings - I thot Jackson & Wynn were rated low also. But i think they used a hard rating as opposed to relative.

A small side rant - I was disappointed Pack released Tracy White. TT & M3 impressed me by giving importance to ST and showing it by giving a few roster spots to ST aces and by resigning White to a good contract. This says more to players than any hype. They see they can make the team and get paid by being a very good ST performer. And last year our STs were pretty good. But then TT goes and cuts White – the leader of the ST for a rookie LB who seems to have potential. What signal does that send? Lead the team in ST tackles and get cut for a raw position prospect. Is it coincidence the drop in ST play? NO ONE can say for sure. Lansanah better prove to be worth it. IF LB needs better personnel than he better be one of them or what was the point?
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Re: Gazette & Journal grade Packer's season 

Post#29 » by xTitan » Mon Jan 5, 2009 3:19 am

I guess it was hard for me to understand a C+ for Grant, while Jackson and Wynn, especially, received such low grades.....
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Re: Gazette & Journal grade Packer's season 

Post#30 » by El Duderino » Mon Jan 5, 2009 3:49 am

paulpressey25 wrote:
El Duderino wrote:Guys like Jolly, Harrell, and Rouse not developing into the players that i'm sure TT/MM had hoped for this year hurt the defense quite a bit. Mix in Hawk and Poppinga looking like they've reached their ceiling as players, the unit didn't look very talented overall to me, especially along the front seven.


That was the problem this year. TT's other guys he drafted by and large didn't step up as Sherm/Wolf's guys got old and/or injured.



I wouldn't put it that way. Colledge and Spitz didn't really replace anyone except for the trash that was at guard during that miserable 4-12, i already forgot who played guard for us that year. Neither has been great or bad, just decent picks so far, but lineman can take time and i think Spitz is better suited for center. Rouse was drafted to maybe become a starter at some point or provide depth, unfortunately he just looks bad far to often. Hall wasn't what i'd call a bad pick given he was taken in the sixth round and he's solid on special teams, but as a fullback, he's small and a spare part at best. Bishop intrigues me and i'd like to see how he'd do as a starter over a stretch of games since he actually makes big plays once in awhile, unlike Hawk/Poppinga, but barring injury to a starter, i wonder if he'll ever get the chance. I guess Jolly fits that in trying to replace Williams production, but coming up way short. Same with Harrell.

I think in the draft, Thompson has overall been pretty good, but nothing special. Getting Rodgers was very huge for the present and future of the franchise. Jennings was obviously a great pick. Collins is finally playing to his immense physical gifts. There is also Hodge being waived. Moll i'd bet will be soon enough. Barbre to this point at least, can't seem to earn the trust of the coaches. Harrell has been worthless. Hawk being mediocre etc etc.

I don't think we were as bad as our record this year, but at the same time Thompson has whiffed on supplying the defense with a high talent base and it played a sizable role in last years failures. That's why i see it being very fair to say it's a critical offseason for Ted. With Rodgers in place and the weapons overall on offense, i expect the unit to be productive so long as the tackle situation is solid. If Thompson upgrades the talent on defense along the new coordinator having a good defensive mind, the team should bounce back and he'll deserve credit. If Ted doesn't upgrade the talent enough and/or youngish guys on the roster don't get better, thus the Packers miss the playoffs again, i'd can Thompson. I doubt Murphy would though. Going through each move a GM with full power makes and trying to grade it might be fun for fans, but what their teams do on the field is what matters far more. They run the whole show. It's their players and their head coach and thus they are more responsible than anyone for the results because they acquire the players and hire the coach. Nobody is more important to the success and failure of pro sports teams than their GM, but oddly enough they often aren't paid more than a mediocre player on the roster. Kinda strange to me.
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Re: Gazette & Journal grade Packer's season 

Post#31 » by El Duderino » Mon Jan 5, 2009 3:58 am

xTitan wrote:I guess it was hard for me to understand a C+ for Grant, while Jackson and Wynn, especially, received such low grades.....


I really wonder what the coaching staff thinks of Jackson, it's really hard to tell? Career backup? The kid did pretty well running the ball this year in limited chances while Grant looked very mediocre all season, even if the line was hardly a great run blocking unit. Yet, McCarthy seemed very reluctant to give Jackson more of a shot to show what he could do with an extended look.

Jackson doesn't seem all that fast and not much of a big play threat, but it would have been nice to see how he'd have done as the main ball carrier for at least a few games in a row.
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Re: Gazette & Journal grade Packer's season 

Post#32 » by ReasonablySober » Mon Jan 5, 2009 4:11 am

Thompson has whiffed on supplying the defense with a high talent base


Whiffed, like getting a DPOY type corner in Charles Woodson and an All-Pro at safety in Collins? Bringing in an good DT in Pickett? Kampman, Barnett, KGB and Harris obviously weren't going anywhere when Thompson came in. Cullen Jenkins was there to replace KGB as his production and effectiveness dropped. That's seven of the eleven positions. Going into this season, don't you think you could say that Bigby and Jolly were legit starters to rely on? Jolly was fantastic last season and Bigby won an award for defensive player of the month in December. He was the best defensive player on the field in our playoff game against the Seahawks. Is there any reason to think those two needed to be replaced, given their age and experience? That comes to nine of the eleven starting positions. Lastly you have Hawk and Poppinga. Hawk hadn't been Brian Urlacher or Derrick Brooks, but he's been far from a liability. Poppinga is mostly just a guy but he plays the most insignificant position on the field, too. When the defensive line has been healthy those two, like any linebacker in the NFL, have looked significantly better.

Not sure what you want in a GM. You've pointed out the problems, now give me solutions. What would you have done? Keep Williams and give him a massive contract? Who did you want to draft?
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Re: Gazette & Journal grade Packer's season 

Post#33 » by El Duderino » Mon Jan 5, 2009 8:00 am

DrugBust wrote:
Thompson has whiffed on supplying the defense with a high talent base


Not sure what you want in a GM. You've pointed out the problems, now give me solutions. What would you have done? Who did you want to draft?


First of all before i go any further, one peeve of mine is when some like to say or imply that before critisizing any GM in pro sports, a solution should have first been supplied. Any pro GM is supposed to be vastly smarter about the game than average fans and they have both vastly more time and information at their disposal than fans do. I don't get coaches tape, have multiple scouts had my disposal, or have 10-12 hours a day to sit in a room watching tons of film of any player that i please. That's why i have absolutely no problem with say criticizing a GM for drafting a player i also liked, but that then turns out to be a bust. He's supposed to know a hell of a lot more than i do and has access to tons more info/video than i do. I don't get to watch every snap of a draft choice i like or say watch every snap of guys soon to be a free agent, Ted Thompson does so in the end, he's fully responsible when the units he's put together perform like crap and deserves credit when the offense he put together performs well.

Keep Williams and give him a massive contract?


I've stated my position on Williams many times. Thompson blew it by not locking up Williams during the same offseason he signed Jenkins to a very reasonable contract. I can't prove this and maybe am wrong, but my guess is the Harrell draft choice played a sizable role in not really trying to lock up Williams when the time was there to get him much cheaper. By the time arrived that there must have been the first concerns Harrell wasn't as good as they hoped, Williams was having another good year and thus his price tag doubled. One mistake, drafting Harrell, compounded itself into another by losing the chance to get Williams and his badly needed pass rush ability locked up at a reasonable price.

Whiffed


Yep. The defense sucked this year and it wasn't just coaching and injury related, the front seven wasn't very talented and the depth behind our starting safeties got exposed badly, to the point the teamed moved their All-Pro corner to safety in hopes to get someone back there that they could trust.

Whiffed, like getting a DPOY type corner in Charles Woodson and an All-Pro at safety in Collins? Bringing in an good DT in Pickett? Kampman, Barnett, KGB and Harris obviously weren't going anywhere when Thompson came in. Cullen Jenkins was there to replace KGB as his production and effectiveness dropped. That's seven of the eleven positions. Going into this season, don't you think you could say that Bigby and Jolly were legit starters to rely on? Jolly was fantastic last season and Bigby won an award for defensive player of the month in December. He was the best defensive player on the field in our playoff game against the Seahawks. Is there any reason to think those two needed to be replaced, given their age and experience?


Obviously Woodson, Pickett, and Collins were good additions to the defense by Ted. Jolly i wasn't anywhere near sold that he was ready to be the starting DT. Prior to the year starting, i said numerous times that DT was easily my biggest worry on the defense. I saw a group of mainly just run pluggers and nobody with pass rushing ability, which could lead to big trouble given we had a coordinator who hates to blitz. Not only would it hurt by not getting interior rush/push from that area, it would allow offenses to slide protection to our ends given they had zero to fear when passing that our DT's would get any pressure. That's exactly what ended up happening. The lack of any quality depth at DE is also on Ted, he hadn't drafted a single pass rusher since becoming GM. Even say a younger mid-round guy they hoped could develop. You can't just assume perfect health at any position when it's the NFL, to violent of a sport. As for Bigby, i was cautiously optimistic about his future. No question he had a great second half to last year, but that was it on his resume. We'll find out next year just how much we should be able to count on him as a fixture of the defense going forward, but like Jenkins, the defense was hurt by crap being behind Bigby. Instead of our second year 3rd round pick in Rouse stepping up to be at least solid, he was so unreliable, the coaches dreaded playing him unless there was no other option.

That comes to nine of the eleven starting positions. Lastly you have Hawk and Poppinga. Hawk hadn't been Brian Urlacher or Derrick Brooks, but he's been far from a liability. Poppinga is mostly just a guy but he plays the most insignificant position on the field, too. When the defensive line has been healthy those two, like any linebacker in the NFL, have looked significantly better


Hawk was the fifth pick in the draft and so far in his career, has played more like a 4th round pick. He had a miserable one tackle for a loss this year and is below average in coverage. I've heard many try to use the excuse, well Veron Davis hasn't been good either, as if that matters at all. Ted is paid to evaluate the talent of players and whiffed badly on how good Hawk would be. If TT had evaluated Hawk properly, he'd have passed on Hawk and either taken someone else or traded down, we certainly know that trading down isn't something he fears doing. Costly mistake, whiffing on top five picks hurt a lot. Poppinga is what he is, just a guy. If we had more playmakers on the front seven, having a spare part like Poppinga starting would be no big deal. I'd rather see Chillar in there because even though you seem to feel linebackers shouldn't ever have to cover backs or tight ends, i've yet to see a NFL defense where they don't. When offenses passed on early downs/potential running downs and both AJ/Poppinga were in there, that's an area i'd certainly target if running an offense. Getting so little from the 5th and 16th overall picks, Hawk/Harrell, is a sizable reason our front seven lacks playmakers. One or two playmakers can really help in transforming any unit.


I'm not saying the defense is completely bereft of talent and there should be hope a new coordinator that is more skilled and creative helps some. The age of Woodson/Harris is a concern, but they don't seem to be in any obvious decline. If Bigby can stay healthy and show there was no fluke to his late play in 2007 and also a safety who is at least reasonably reliable can be added as depth, the secondary should be good next year. Hopefully Lee makes a jump to where he deserves play in the nickle/dime. It goes without saying Jenkins/Kampman need to to be healthy. Even if they are, someone with at least reasonably decent pass rush ability has to be added as depth. If we stay a 4-3, DT badly needs to be addressed, it's the weakest unit on the roster and vital to the success/failure of any 4-3 defense. Lastly, we badly need some playmaking at LB. Hopefully Barnett can bring some of that, but we can't have the other two spots invisible except for when chasing some back or TE that scorched them in coverage. We've seen often in the NFL that a few bright moves and say improvement from a young player or two can turn around quickly a unit that struggled the year prior. My sincere hope is that TT and the new coordinator is up to the task.

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