Salmons Frustrated w/ the Coaching Staff, Me w/ Petrie

[ICMTM]

http://www.sacbee.com/kings/story/1518907.html

Me, too! Me, too!

What's that have to do with you brickin' shots left and right in New Jersey. I'm tired of Salmons' pouting! I'm tired of people expecting this team to be any good. Lastly I'm tired of the lack of movement regarding player personell. Salmons, Martin, enter your current Kings player here, isn't the answer! It's not Salmons fault he isn't good enough, but it's Petrie's fault he's here. Here are the last FA signings:

Shareef Abdur Raheim
John Salmons
Mikki Moore
Beno Udrih
Bobby Brown

For as well as some say Petrie has drafted the last 5 FA's aren't all that great. SAR was a bust. Moore is overpaid. I never thought Udrih would be a consistent PG. Salmons is worth the money when he isn't pouting. Bobby Brown is cheap and so we'll see. I understand we're working with MLE money here but at the same time it's money! Why sign these long term deals if the players aren't any good? We can suck under the cap.

What has Petrie done lately in free agency?

[HUBlackstar83]

Looks like we posted at the same time, lol. Anyhow, I'm really beginning to view Salmons as a selfish guy. I recall several times this season where we'll have a 2 on 1 or maybe 3 on 1 break and he just won't pass the ball. He has great 1st halves then he disappears in the 2nd half.

We're desperately in need of some leadership on this team. These guys need to man up for real. We're simply not a tough team.

[pillwenney]

Salmons is still an absolute steal for the money he got--really one of the best contracts in the NBA. SAR was a failed risk (basically just because of injury), but he still would've been worth the risk. Mikki---meh, we weren't going to be under the cap anyway at that point. And I still have faith Beno will be better than he has. He won't be the long term answer, but he is better than he has played this year.

[cdt3]

Shareef was a 18/8 career guy and Petrie had to gamble on him he was the best FA of his class. His injuries happen with gambles. Salmons was a very good pickup and wouldn't be upset if we were winning. Mikki Moore sucks and is the greatest weak spot of our team but there were no vets left for minimum wage (JT should be starting for MM and Shelden should be getting the rest of his minutes). Brown is also a minumum wage rook. You cannot count on rooks to be solid. Rookies are rookies whether they are coaches, priests, cops, basketball, players, etc. Very few rookies can deal with pressure of the first year of the league and put up 20 points. The Bibby trade was the killer and it was the Maloofs who ran Bibby out of town with Petrie's buddy Adelman. If you think it was Petrie's idea to kick him to the curb, I can guarantee it was over his head. Petrie's gambles worked when he got Vlade, Webber and Bibby but didn't work out with Shareef. Every gamble doesn't work in trades. The guy has made far more good ones than bad ones, including JT who ESPN was laughing at when he was picked, but JT will prove them wrong.

Only 4 GM's have more playoff appearances in the last 13 years! It will take a few years to turn things around. There will be 30 other teams waiting for the Kings to fire Petrie, including the Lakers!

[Nicky Nix Nook]

im having problems seeing the light at the end of the tunnel these days.

maybe the draft will shine some light again

[wdrummel]

Suns fan here... Im not big on trade proposals and such, but how would you guys feel if the Suns offered Barbosa for Salmons? Their contracts are almost identical and Barbosa's minutes are suffering with the addition of J Rich.

Just thought I'd throw it out there.

[SacKingZZZ]

And so it begins, welcome the land of 10 man rotations!

[Smills91]

Suns fan here... Im not big on trade proposals and such, but how would you guys feel if the Suns offered Barbosa for Salmons? Their contracts are almost identical and Barbosa's minutes are suffering with the addition of J Rich.

Just thought I'd throw it out there.

Pass...Salmons plays both ends of the ball well. Barbosa is a cherry-picking, gunner albeit a good one at that, but he's a one trick pony in that regard. He's FAR from the answer. If we deal salmons I'd like to see a rebuild package or a stud PG with filler in return.

[SacKingZZZ]

I don't know, Barbosa would be pretty nice return wise.

[OGSactownballer]

Barbosa can't fix our problem because he isn't a true point and cannot effectively run a team so pass.

Back to the original points. Salmons has been proven not to have the off the bench/second wing option mentality to do well that way. The problem here is that he HAS to be so to Kevin and we are trying to showcase others (i.e. - Miller) to up their trade value. I have a pretty good feeling that everything up until this season was really more of the Maloofs pressure on Petrie to keep winning at all costs that made for some of the funky and so-so moves that we have seen. Basically they wanted to keep winning when they would have been better off scuttling the ship two years ago and taking the insurance payoff . If that had been the case they probably would have come out of the last two years poised right now to be moving back up. They waited too long to let Geoff unload Bibby and have done the same with others (Artest was an exception because of who and what he is - and I STILL think that trade will turn out to be to our advantage in the longer run).

I am still willing to be patient and see what happens now with Petrie REALLY running things. I don;t wish ill health on anyone, but Joe's health issues may turn out to have come on just in time to save this franchise from the pit of interfering ownership!

[pillwenney]

And so it begins, welcome the land of 10 man rotations!

Yeah, Salmons saying "they call the plays, so it's up to them" is completely related to that. This issue is so completely not about minutes.

[ICMTM]

Salmons is still an absolute steal for the money he got--really one of the best contracts in the NBA. SAR was a failed risk (basically just because of injury), but he still would've been worth the risk. Mikki---meh, we weren't going to be under the cap anyway at that point. And I still have faith Beno will be better than he has. He won't be the long term answer, but he is better than he has played this year.

I think Salmons is a great contract and agree

SAR was called damaged goods by New Jersey BEFORE we offered him a deal so I can't say we took a risk like it happened out of nowhere.

Brown may be a good signing?

If we don't sign Moore the minutes would have went to Kenny Thomas. I don't even think Moore has a bad deal since bigs cost more, but if you look at it in terms of who's better Thomas or Moore you couldn't come up with a consensus answer. So signing Moore is BAD IMO.

I think we paid market value for Beno, but the issue isn't if he's overpaid. The issue remains is Beno Udrih a starting PG or not? I've been saying he plays way too inconsistently to warrant the job. After seeing in person how the team was outwardly disfunctional when he was on the court I really understand why his minutes are being cut.

So the jury is out on Brown.
Salmons is a good value

SAR
Udrih
Moore

three signings the Kings could have done without IMO! I don't see how you can say Petrie has done a great job when you couldn't get an analyst that covers the NBA to say this is a talented roster. At best someone may say they see the potential in the roster, but that's it.

[Ballings7]

Barbosa doesn't make any sense for this team relative to any kind of long-term... and I'd definitely like better in terms of improvement in an area of the team in return, or a solid/nice overall trade package, for Salmons. Rather than a talented, excting, but limited scoring undersized SG, who is definitely soft and not a starter. He'd also add more of what we don't quite need right now - lacking body size.

We need a consistent play-making-for-others guard and more toughness. There's some here and there on the team, but definitely not enough as a whole.

Salmons had problems last year when guys were making their returns, also. Regardless, again, it's up to the coaching staff, the other players, and himself to get in better from. They should all recognize it and balance things out somehow.

[pillwenney]

I think Salmons is a great contract and agree

SAR was called damaged goods by New Jersey BEFORE we offered him a deal so I can't say we took a risk like it happened out of nowhere.

Brown may be a good signing?

If we don't sign Moore the minutes would have went to Kenny Thomas. I don't even think Moore has a bad deal since bigs cost more, but if you look at it in terms of who's better Thomas or Moore you couldn't come up with a consensus answer. So signing Moore is BAD IMO.

I think we paid market value for Beno, but the issue isn't if he's overpaid. The issue remains is Beno Udrih a starting PG or not? I've been saying he plays way too inconsistently to warrant the job. After seeing in person how the team was outwardly disfunctional when he was on the court I really understand why his minutes are being cut.

So the jury is out on Brown.
Salmons is a good value

SAR
Udrih
Moore

three signings the Kings could have done without IMO! I don't see how you can say Petrie has done a great job when you couldn't get an analyst that covers the NBA to say this is a talented roster. At best someone may say they see the potential in the roster, but that's it.

Right, I think probably the more accurate statement about SAR is that the people that tested him should be criticized because our medical guys seemed to think it was a non-issue at the time. Regardless, it's debatable whether or not Geoff really deserves the blame on that. Especially since SAR would have been a great deal, had he been able to stay healthy.

My point with Mikki is that we weren't going to have cap space any of these years anyway, so it doesn't really make a difference. You can argue that we didn't need to sign him, but it's not like it was a disastrous signing anyway.

And yes, Beno has not performed consistently enough so far this year, but I think he's capable of doing so. He's certainly talented enough to be a starting PG in this league, albeit not a great one. Regardless, it's not a great signing so far, but it's still early.

No, this isn't a talented roster, but it doesn't have to be when you're rebuilding. We do have nice young talent, and that's good--that's what we should have right now. Along with that, we'll have plenty of big expiring contracts in the next couple years to use as trade bait, or we can wait for the cap space that may arise. It's a team in transition, so of course it's not going to be the best team right now.

[SacKingZZZ]

Yeah, Salmons saying "they call the plays, so it's up to them" is completely related to that. This issue is so completely not about minutes.

OK, you're kidding right? How many times do I have to say it's not about minutes, IT'S ABOUT ROLE AND CONSISTENCY. You can give anyone and endless amount of minutes but when you start taking their role away, or their shots, they get pissed.

Adding players like Martin means less shots to go around. Adding Spencer back means even less shots to go around. Trying to fit Kenny Thomas into that means waaaay less shots to go around.

[KingInExile]

Looks like Natt doesn't agree with Salmons' assessment and has a pretty blunt message for him:

"I'll continue to make the decisions as long as I'm the coach of the team," Natt said before Tuesday's game. "I'll try to do whatever I can to make things better for the guys out there on the floor. But I don't shoot shots. I don't turn the ball over.

"I told him, 'Hey, I'm a man, just like all of you. I've made mistakes, and we have to learn to own up to our mistakes and our lack of effort and production."

Salmons' comments came after he had scored a season-low three points. But the issue of combining his isolation style with that of his teammates is not new. Natt has been preaching the sort of ball movement and tempo that often contradicts Salmons' tendencies, and Natt said that reality remains.

"He has to learn how to be with the other guys out there on the floor," Natt said.

http://www.sacbee.com/kings/story/1521999.html

Salmons didn't want to resign with Philly because he didn't like being second fiddle to AI. In his time with the Kings he has shown that he doesn't do well coming off the bench and struggles when he's not the focus of the offense. IMO this is HIS problem...not the problem of the coaching staff. HE is the one that has the attitude problem, HE is the one that can't adapt to the needs of the TEAM. He may be a good player that is certainly worth the contract that he has. But he is not good enough to be this much of a prima donna.

[pillwenney]

OK, you're kidding right? How many times do I have to say it's not about minutes, IT'S ABOUT ROLE AND CONSISTENCY. You can give anyone and endless amount of minutes but when you start taking their role away, or their shots, they get pissed.

Adding players like Martin means less shots to go around. Adding Spencer back means even less shots to go around. Trying to fit Kenny Thomas into that means waaaay less shots to go around.

Yes, but the size of the rotation doesn't affect Salmons' role. Only Kevin affects it. Salmons is clearly the second option with Kevin here. John can still get shots, he just has to learn to play within the system better. Before Kevin came back a lot of our offense was just isoing John because we didn't have any better options. Now we do have better options and John has to learn to adjust. But again, it's not about how many options we have, but the size of them.

And no, if anything Kenny playing means more shots for others, actually. When he's in it means that one of our other bigs (all of whom are more likely to shoot on a given play than Kenny) are out. Your argument about the size of the rotation applies only to minutes. It's not like if player X shoots 10 shots per game in 25 minutes, he keeps shooting 10 shots per game if his minutes are cut down to 18. It's all relative. Jason and Spencer are the only bigs we ever isolate, and that's pretty rare even.

If John plays like he's capable of playing (i.e. not going 1 for 8), he'll get his touches.

[SacKingZZZ]

Yes, but the size of the rotation doesn't affect Salmons' role. Only Kevin affects it. Salmons is clearly the second option with Kevin here. John can still get shots, he just has to learn to play within the system better. Before Kevin came back a lot of our offense was just isoing John because we didn't have any better options. Now we do have better options and John has to learn to adjust. But again, it's not about how many options we have, but the size of them.

And no, if anything Kenny playing means more shots for others, actually. When he's in it means that one of our other bigs (all of whom are more likely to shoot on a given play than Kenny) are out. Your argument about the size of the rotation applies only to minutes. It's not like if player X shoots 10 shots per game in 25 minutes, he keeps shooting 10 shots per game if his minutes are cut down to 18. It's all relative. Jason and Spencer are the only bigs we ever isolate, and that's pretty rare even.

If John plays like he's capable of playing (i.e. not going 1 for 8), he'll get his touches.

Of course it does, because Kevin is apart of the rotation and he is going to take a lot of shots, sure he is probably taking minutes from someone else but the fact remains, there are less shots to go around. Now not only do you have Beno, Garcia, Jackson, and Brown looking for shots at the wing next to John, you have Beno, Garcia, Jackson, Brown, and Martin. Martin is going to take anywhere from 15 to 20 a game, that's 20 less shots over the total. You take 4-5 shots away from someone only taking 15 or so a game and that's nearly 33% of his output. In the last 3 games Salmons hasn't taken more than 12 shots. The minutes thing is an issue too which will only compound the problem down the road.

Since Kevin has come back Salmons hasn't been the 2nd option really, the offense is running through Brad again so he is the one with the ball, and no surprise Brad has been playing really well since Kevin came back. Our offense has been way better and way smoother lately because our team is better suited for that type of play, once again going back to the reason I think Salmons doesn't fit long term, I think Garcia and Martin are the best fit at the 2/3 going forward. They can both play off of Brad Miller and fit this style of play.


And no it comes down to the rotation as I stated above. John isn't going to lose his minutes, although he has a little in the last couple of games, but John is going to lose shots and his role within the offense. I said the whole time we wouldn't really see the effects until healthy, someone either gets cut out or we platoon, so far we have platooned, I said the pissed off players would follow, the very next day this report came out. John is the most likely victim because he isn't the type that is going to destroy the teams rhythm to get his game going, and yes he could fit better, but if he's getting the shots, that means somebody else is going to be mad. My guess would be Cisco. You simply do not run 6 guys at the wings and 4 in the paint, especially not with a couple of them being well aged veterans you need to trade pretty soon.

Another thing I forgot to mention, you can't look at this as some type of hypothetical situation, like player X gets this amount of minutes which typically correlates to this number of shots and so on, the properties involved are very real and adding someone that is going to take at least 20% of your overall total (which is close to a hard factual and precise number as well) is going to have an impact. If there were an infinite number of shots, sure, no problem, but we are only going to average so many shots per game do to the time restraints, style of play, etc.

[deNIEd]

And if this is true, Salmons has pretty much no trade value then.

What team will want a player like Salmons that wants to be the star, when he clearly is far from being a top player.

[SacKingZZZ]

And if this is true, Salmons has pretty much no trade value then.

What team will want a player like Salmons that wants to be the star, when he clearly is far from being a top player.

I don't think it's that serious or to that extent, but it is a reason why we should either feature him or move him. It's not a problem with him IMO, it's a problem with how he fits into the picture. He fits this team like Artest did. Artest would have no problem making his own way though, John won't do that as evidenced last year.