Ready for G-Force yet? READ THIS!!!

[INKtastic]

I'm debunking a post where you used no facts to support your claim. The burden of proof is on you, not me. You claim no proof because the league wouldn't make such information public.

And I really don't get your 30 million point. Are you saying the 30 million figure is referring to profits (before taxes), not gross revenue? If so, you're then saying the bobcats have $21 million in profits (before taxes). Business are taxed on earnings minus expenses, thus profit before taxes. If the bobcats are making $21 million, they aren't losing money, thus aren't getting economic relief.

Please explain again exactly what the $30 million average refers to. Something that is consistent with your posts.

[heathmalc]

I'm debunking a post where you used no facts to support your claim. The burden of proof is on you, not me. You claim no proof because the league wouldn't make such information public.

First, there is no "burden of proof" on anyone. This is no court room, but a forum of public opinion. You do not wish to believe what I said, and that is your opinion and choice. However, it doesn't change the fact that I know what I'm talking about, and you don't have a clue.

And I really don't get your 30 million point.

From the posts you have made, I find that very easy to believe...in fact, I'd be surprised if you even understood your own mumbo-jumbo

Are you saying the 30 million figure is referring to profits (before taxes), not gross revenue?

You have NO idea what you are talking about..OBVIOUSLY!!! Look at your question.

Profits before taxes ARE gross revenue!!! However, I already stated this in my last post, which again leads me to believe you didn't actually read the post.

This is what I said in my ORIGINAL POST:

So while the average team in making 30 million before taxes, the Bobcats are making about 21,300,000 before taxes (29% less than the average team).

I was a little ambiguous, as I was talking about the team's PERSONAL income... not the incomes/revenues that they all share (TNT/ESPN/ABC/Merchandise,etc). When talking about a team's PERSONAL revenue, you are talking about gate, and sponsorships,etc.

The AVERAGE team (all teams combined, divided by 30) GROSSES approximately 30 million dollars. The Bobcats, I estimated, make approximately 21 million (I was wrong BTW, it was only 17.6M last year).

If so, you're then saying the bobcats have $21 million in profits (before taxes). Business are taxed on earnings minus expenses, thus profit before taxes. If the bobcats are making $21 million, they aren't losing money, thus aren't getting economic relief.

Now you are trying to change my words. I never said that Charlotte made 21 million in PROFITS, I said that was their approximate income. Income and profits are two different things.

As for your other statement in this quote:

"Businesses are taxed on earnings minus expenses, thus profit before taxes."

Earnings minus expenses, before taxes is called EBIT. It is essentially your Operating income (revenue) minus expenses.

I covered this in my LAST POST!!!!

Here is what I said:

So while the average team in making 30 million before taxes, the Bobcats are making about 21,300,000 before taxes (29% less than the average team).

Thus, I said that Charlotte had approximately 21 million in REVENUE. That is not 21 million is NOT 21 million in PROFIT!!!!

Please explain again exactly what the $30 million average refers to. Something that is consistent with your posts.

Even though I explained it earlier in this post, I will say it again, because you either don't read very good, or you have a bad memory:

The Average team makes approximately 30 million per year. This 30 million dollars mostly comes from gate-sales. However, other sales and sponsorships are also included.

In the case of Charlotte, they only have an average attendance of 13K+... so they are nowhere near the average, and obviously their 71% capacity will change their income, which I said was approximately 21 million (It was actually less).

And to make you understand the league policy on helping teams financially, there is a rule (agreed upon by owners) that the NBA can give no more than 5 million to any single team. The reason the cap-rule was added is because so many teams were being irresponsible, and the profitable teams felt that they shouldn't have to pay for the continuous bad management of other franchises. Teams like New York, Chicago, Miami... they have large personal incomes... yet when managed poorly, even a rich team can have losses (none of those three did).

[stycool24]

to clear things out...

http://www.forbes.com/2007/12/06/busine ... intro.html

"The NBA remains a gate-driven league. Gate receipts for the league rose 6% last season to $1.2 billion. At 33% of the league's $3.6 billion in revenue, it represents the NBA's largest revenue stream; national broadcast deals are next up at $1 billion or 28%."

according to Forbes, in 2006-2007, NBA teams made an average of $40,000,000 through ticket sales.


About Collective bargaining agreement:

"Starting with the 2001-2002 season, a new system was put in place as a result of a collective bargaining agreement between owners and players. This system rewarded owners who kept spending on players in check. Last season the Charlotte Bobcats and Utah Jazz both went from showing a loss to posting a profit thanks to a $6.3 million check from the league for keeping player spending under control."


http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/32/biz ... 22435.html
Bobcats: # 27 in revenue in 2007-2008
1-Yr Value Chg. 4%
Ann. Value Chg. 2 -1%
Debt/Value 3 52%
Revenue 4 $93 mil
Operating Inc. 5 $5.3 mil
Player Expenses 6 $46 mil
Gate Receipts 7 $23 mil

[INKtastic]

^^ and that refers to the escrow tax and luxury tax as outlined in the CBA

One component of the new system is an escrow tax. The escrow tax is designed so that teams only spend 57% of league-wide revenues on player salaries. Last season, players contributed 9%, or $177 million, of their $2 billion salary haul to an escrow account. That money is split between owners and players, so total player salaries and benefits are reduced to 57% of league-wide revenue. Last season, owners divvied up $155 million of the escrow account, while $22 million went back to the players.

The second component of the system is a luxury tax. The luxury tax threshold is proving to be much more important than the salary cap number, as teams are loathe to pay the tax. Teams must pay one dollar in tax for every dollar they spend on players over a certain threshold--last season, it was $65.4 million. The tax is a double-whammy in that tax-paying teams are ineligible to receive distributions from the tax revenues collected. Five teams paid the tax last year, with the Knicks leading the way with a $45 million tax bill. The other four taxpaying teams chipped in $10 million.

[INKtastic]

Heath - these things aren't hard to find. Charlotte had 95 million in gross revenue last year, paid $59 million in player salary, and showed a loss of $4.9 million (this is their before tax number of income - expenses).

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/32/nba ... 22435.html

They had $21 million in ticket sales (which is only part of their total revenue).

This is how they rank among other teams in the league

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/32/nba ... venue.html

[heathmalc]

Why are you telling me this??????????

Heath - these things aren't hard to find...

They had $21 million in ticket sales (which is only part of their total revenue).

I told you the same thing in damn near every post I made to your assertion that I made this up. As for the link you just gave me, if you'd have actually read my first post, the link is right there..in the OP!!

So why give me the link that I already provided you?

Second:

The financial profile you see on Forbes is provided by the NBA, and Tax statements that add tax benefits to the team's revenue. The thing you should look at that Forbes shows you, is the NOI (Net operating income) versus Player cost. Notice that while their NOI has dropped every year, their player salaries have increased. And while the Cats may be 27th in income, they are #1 in debt, and 29th in NET value... And it is getting worse!!!

And that was the whole point of my post. Player Salary/Expenses/Debt are too high for the income that is received. If the Bobcats don't do something quickly (within 2 years by my estimation), Mr. Johnson will be forced to sell, and the team may be forced to move (Seattle???).

The fact that Mr. Johnson is the first African American Majority owner in the NBA (or any major sporting franchise) is reason enough for the NBA to do everything in it's power to try and help him succeed. One of the things that has to be done is to remove heavy contracts while putting together a competitive team. Unfortunately, Michael Jordan is nowhere near as successful in the executive level of the NBA, as he was as a player.

It is well known that swingmen are much easier to find than big men. So, it would stand to reason, that if the Bobcats were to make another move (I GUARANTEE THEY WILL), it will likely be Wallace that goes. The fact that the Cavaliers are one of only a few teams that can actually afford Gerald, and have the contracts needed to make a deal happen, makes it a very real possibility.

Bob Finnan's suggestion that the trio of Snow, Sasha and Kinsey being traded for Wallace, made me think really hard about why he would say something like that. And, although I don't think that exact deal would be the one we made...if we were to make a deal... I do at-least understand why he used those particular player - and I wanted to share that with other Cavalier fans, as I thought they'd find it interesting.

Anyway... can we move on to something else now? This topic is really stale.

[INKtastic]

Why are you telling me this??????????

Heath - these things aren't hard to find...

They had $21 million in ticket sales (which is only part of their total revenue).

I told you the same thing in damn near every post I made to your assertion that I made this up. As for the link you just gave me, if you'd have actually read my first post, the link is right there..in the OP!!

you actually never explained what you were talking about and then changed the number to something else right before anyone could figure out what you really were talking about. You also arrived at the $21 million number by using some arbitrary percentage of a clearly incorrect $30 million number.

And you've still found nothing to indicate there is anything special about being under the salary cap. That link clearly refers to being under the luxury tax. This is the main point I've been questioning, and one that you've offered no evidence to support beyond claiming knowledge to insider information. It's this sort of nonsense that has gotten you repeatedly banned from the other cavs board.

As I said in my very first post in this thread.

if you claim they would do the trade for salary relief, fine, but don't make up a reason.

referring to some magic reason to be below the salary cap.

Johnson might sell, but the team isn't moving. If he sells, it'll be to Jordan, and Jordan isn't moving the team out of North Carolina. And moving one of their main players in Wallace will only make their attendance situation worse. THe solution to their problems is to start winning basketball games.

[heathmalc]

you actually never explained what you were talking about and then changed the number to something else right before anyone could figure out what you really were talking about. You also arrived at the $21 million number by using some arbitrary percentage of a clearly incorrect $30 million number.

It seems to me that you were the only one who had a problem understanding. And the 30 million dollar number wasn't "arbitrary," nor was it incorrect. The 21 million was not reached by some "arbitrary" percentage, it was reached by taking the Bobcats' attendance percentage in contrast to the league average, and adding in approximate sponsorship money (IE:Naming rights,etc).

And you've still found nothing to indicate there is anything special about being under the salary cap. That link clearly refers to being under the luxury tax. This is the main point I've been questioning, and one that you've offered no evidence to support beyond claiming knowledge to insider information.

Once again, you put words in my mouth. Please show me the quote where I claim anything. As for the link I provided, it was to support the part of the post from which it was attached.

It's this sort of nonsense that has gotten you repeatedly banned from the other cavs board.

Again, you are incorrect. I was banned from real cavs fans for arguing with the moderators that thought they knew something that they didn't... kind of like you now. It seems that some people take the role of "moderator" to an extreme, as if it makes them more important or something. In reality, a moderator is given their position out of necessity by the webmaster, or his/her administrator(s). You continuously want to bring up things that are off-topic (IE: me being banned from a forum, or me supposedly claiming insider knowledge) in an effort to make your post sound more valid. However, you are wrong, and no matter what you say, that wont change.

Johnson might sell, but the team isn't moving. If he sells, it'll be to Jordan, and Jordan isn't moving the team out of North Carolina.

LMAO!!!! You cannot possibly be serious. Jordan has nowhere near the capital needed to own a controlling interest in an NBA franchise. And with the job he has done thus far in Charlotte, I find it highly unlikely that he could form any type of successful group that could buy the Bobcats...even at their reduced value.

And BTW... Johnson would move the team to Seattle before he sold.

And moving one of their main players in Wallace will only make their attendance situation worse. The solution to their problems is to start winning basketball games.

Actually, it doesn't get much worse (the attendance)... there are a certain number of guaranteed seats. But, you are finally right about one thing... at least partially: The solution does start with winning. What it takes to make that happen is what we are talking about in this thread..........

... Reduced player payroll, plus young,cheap players who make the team exciting and give hope for the future, as opposed to high-priced stars who take-up too much of the team's payroll, and make it impossible to rebuild.

You can have a roster of superstars... 1-15, and if they don't win, then people wont pay to see them. So, if you are the owner of a team, and you are looking to stop the bleeding and start the rebuild of a franchise, what is your first move?
#1 Change the culture - IE: New coach
#2 Get rid of high-priced talent that has not helped you win - IE: Jason Richardson + ???
#3 Package overpaid players with others to lower cost
#4 Get the market excited after you break them down - cheap young talent with a future.

These are just some of the well known steps that a franchise takes to turn things around.

At any rate, this thread has run it's course. We will see what happens.

Regardless, we'll get an up-close view of GW tonight.

-Peace

[INKtastic]

you were banned from RCF (the first time) for claiming to be an insider without actually being one. Long, drawn out posts that were supposed to be insider knowledge that were both ripped to shreds by the two actual insiders on the board and full of factual inaccuracies in terms of what was even possible under the CBA.

Of course this whole claim only came about because you were wrong about this

Amazingly, with this trade, they have an immediate $2,939,319.00 savings from their cap. Putting them under the cap by $64,205. This means they get 4 Million from the NBA for being under the cap (paid by the teams in the luxury tax).

first you're talking about luxury tax payments, which are paid to teams under the luxury tax, not the salary cap. Once you were questioned about this, you came up with this

The money I am referring to is money paid to the teams by the NBA (from the proceeds the NBA TAKES -IE: Stern), for economic reasons. In order for the NBA to give money to a team for ECONOMIC relief, they must be under the salary CAP... not the tax-level.

This is the claim I've asked you for two pages to show

Now you claim that there is a magic switch at the salary cap to trigger some relief payments when there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever of such. When asked to provide some documentation to support this claim, you said

No, I do not. There is no such link, as the league's business office doesn't regularly post private matters on the internet.

which once again sounds like you are claiming to be an insider as you claim to know the details of something you can't substantiate because it's a league private matter.

Which is it?

- were you confusing being under the luxury tax with being under the salary cap in your original post?
- do you have any proof of your claim about economic relief based on being under the salary cap?
- are you again claiming to be an insider who posts league private matters on the internet while saying the league would never do such a thing?

The answer has to be one of the 3.

Oh, and Michael Jordan's net worth is over $400 million, well over the value of the Bobcats, and he has stated interest in buying majority ownership in the team if it ever is sold.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3689324

[drewd]

heathmalc why would Tarence Kinsey be involved in this trade? If we got Gerald we would have no reason to keep Wally... We don't need Nazr if we can offer wally to sac straight up for Brad Miller! Remember JJ and Wally was their asking price. Our asking price is Wally for Brad Straight up!

Mo, Boobie
West, Gerald
LBJ, Gerald
Ben, AV
Miller, JJ (Z "injured")

[Smooth32]

Heath you know exactly what you were banned for and it had nothing to do with arguing with moderators.

BTW--nice try, Titus.

For those of you who don't know Heath: don't take a word he says seriously or else you'll end up looking like a fool.

[heathmalc]

heathmalc why would Tarence Kinsey be involved in this trade? If we got Gerald we would have no reason to keep Wally... We don't need Nazr if we can offer wally to sac straight up for Brad Miller! Remember JJ and Wally was their asking price. Our asking price is Wally for Brad Straight up!

Mo, Boobie
West, Gerald
LBJ, Gerald
Ben, AV
Miller, JJ (Z "injured")

Because, the Bobcats would need incentive to trade Wallace. Nazr is that incentive. Anyway, Kinsey is in the trade because that was the scenario laid out by Bob Finnan.