Salmons Frustrated w/ the Coaching Staff, Me w/ Petrie

[OGSactownballer]

Even Donte is a better fit (primary scoring ability as a wing shooter) than Salmons by the logic I read here - and that makes sense.

Back to John - I think that on a team without another primary WING option for scoring that he would be fantastic. That's why I think that a TO trade makes so much sense. They just don't have that every night punch guy from the wing. John would fit in nicely there and would have plenty of iso touches like he likes with the bigs (Bosh, JO) that would allow him to go one on one with his man. He just doesn't really fit here (other than defensively) with Martin and all the other guys that need to be taking shots from the 2/3.

[pillwenney]

Of course it does, because Kevin is apart of the rotation and he is going to take a lot of shots, sure he is probably taking minutes from someone else but the fact remains, there are less shots to go around. Now not only do you have Beno, Garcia, Jackson, and Brown looking for shots at the wing next to John, you have Beno, Garcia, Jackson, Brown, and Martin. Martin is going to take anywhere from 15 to 20 a game, that's 20 less shots over the total. You take 4-5 shots away from someone only taking 15 or so a game and that's nearly 33% of his output. In the last 3 games Salmons hasn't taken more than 12 shots. The minutes thing is an issue too which will only compound the problem down the road.

Since Kevin has come back Salmons hasn't been the 2nd option really, the offense is running through Brad again so he is the one with the ball, and no surprise Brad has been playing really well since Kevin came back. Our offense has been way better and way smoother lately because our team is better suited for that type of play, once again going back to the reason I think Salmons doesn't fit long term, I think Garcia and Martin are the best fit at the 2/3 going forward. They can both play off of Brad Miller and fit this style of play.


And no it comes down to the rotation as I stated above. John isn't going to lose his minutes, although he has a little in the last couple of games, but John is going to lose shots and his role within the offense. I said the whole time we wouldn't really see the effects until healthy, someone either gets cut out or we platoon, so far we have platooned, I said the pissed off players would follow, the very next day this report came out. John is the most likely victim because he isn't the type that is going to destroy the teams rhythm to get his game going, and yes he could fit better, but if he's getting the shots, that means somebody else is going to be mad. My guess would be Cisco. You simply do not run 6 guys at the wings and 4 in the paint, especially not with a couple of them being well aged veterans you need to trade pretty soon.

Another thing I forgot to mention, you can't look at this as some type of hypothetical situation, like player X gets this amount of minutes which typically correlates to this number of shots and so on, the properties involved are very real and adding someone that is going to take at least 20% of your overall total (which is close to a hard factual and precise number as well) is going to have an impact. If there were an infinite number of shots, sure, no problem, but we are only going to average so many shots per game do to the time restraints, style of play, etc.

Right, but my point is that John isn't really losing any shots to anyone but Kevin and maybe Cisco on occasion. He's not actually losing shots to Beno, or either of the Bobbys because Kevin is here, so the size of the rotation is irrelevant. It's not like John's shots go down while everybody else's stay still. The more likely scenario once everyone is a bit more settled, and if John stops being a baby is that his shots go down a little, as do everyone else's one of the Bobbys gets cut out of the rotation from time to time. He does have to make an effort to play within the offense, but the fact remains that he is a very capable scorer. And while your point about Brad and the offense running through him more now does have some merit, it's hardly related to the size of the rotation.

[SacKingZZZ]

Of course it does, because Kevin is apart of the rotation and he is going to take a lot of shots, sure he is probably taking minutes from someone else but the fact remains, there are less shots to go around. Now not only do you have Beno, Garcia, Jackson, and Brown looking for shots at the wing next to John, you have Beno, Garcia, Jackson, Brown, and Martin. Martin is going to take anywhere from 15 to 20 a game, that's 20 less shots over the total. You take 4-5 shots away from someone only taking 15 or so a game and that's nearly 33% of his output. In the last 3 games Salmons hasn't taken more than 12 shots. The minutes thing is an issue too which will only compound the problem down the road.

Since Kevin has come back Salmons hasn't been the 2nd option really, the offense is running through Brad again so he is the one with the ball, and no surprise Brad has been playing really well since Kevin came back. Our offense has been way better and way smoother lately because our team is better suited for that type of play, once again going back to the reason I think Salmons doesn't fit long term, I think Garcia and Martin are the best fit at the 2/3 going forward. They can both play off of Brad Miller and fit this style of play.


And no it comes down to the rotation as I stated above. John isn't going to lose his minutes, although he has a little in the last couple of games, but John is going to lose shots and his role within the offense. I said the whole time we wouldn't really see the effects until healthy, someone either gets cut out or we platoon, so far we have platooned, I said the pissed off players would follow, the very next day this report came out. John is the most likely victim because he isn't the type that is going to destroy the teams rhythm to get his game going, and yes he could fit better, but if he's getting the shots, that means somebody else is going to be mad. My guess would be Cisco. You simply do not run 6 guys at the wings and 4 in the paint, especially not with a couple of them being well aged veterans you need to trade pretty soon.

Another thing I forgot to mention, you can't look at this as some type of hypothetical situation, like player X gets this amount of minutes which typically correlates to this number of shots and so on, the properties involved are very real and adding someone that is going to take at least 20% of your overall total (which is close to a hard factual and precise number as well) is going to have an impact. If there were an infinite number of shots, sure, no problem, but we are only going to average so many shots per game do to the time restraints, style of play, etc.

Right, but my point is that John isn't really losing any shots to anyone but Kevin and maybe Cisco on occasion. He's not actually losing shots to Beno, or either of the Bobbys because Kevin is here, so the size of the rotation is irrelevant. It's not like John's shots go down while everybody else's stay still. The more likely scenario once everyone is a bit more settled, and if John stops being a baby is that his shots go down a little, as do everyone else's one of the Bobbys gets cut out of the rotation from time to time. He does have to make an effort to play within the offense, but the fact remains that he is a very capable scorer. And while your point about Brad and the offense running through him more now does have some merit, it's hardly related to the size of the rotation.

No, but Beno is about as uninvolved in the offense as anyone. Like I said, John needs to be traded, if he doesn't fit our style and his value will only go down and there are plenty of teams out there that he could produce in a much better manner for him. We can't let John shrink back down to that 12 ppg pouter worrying about his shot selection. Sell 'em high!

And the offense running through Brad has a lot to do with John being bumped down to 3rd or 4th option many plays. Now if John can learn to play off of Brad then great, but I don't even think it's even worth trying to find out at this point. It would have been great to focus on that earlier, now is most likely too late.

[pillwenney]

No, but Beno is about as uninvolved in the offense as anyone. Like I said, John needs to be traded, if he doesn't fit our style and his value will only go down and there are plenty of teams out there that he could produce in a much better manner for him. We can't let John shrink back down to that 12 ppg pouter worrying about his shot selection. Sell 'em high!

And the offense running through Brad has a lot to do with John being bumped down to 3rd or 4th option many plays. Now if John can learn to play off of Brad then great, but I don't even think it's even worth trying to find out at this point. It would have been great to focus on that earlier, now is most likely too late.

Beno is somewhat involved but it's tough to keep him involved when he doesn't even have a 2/1 Assist to Turnover ratio and while a decent scorer, isn't good enough to warrant getting a ton of opportunities. the solution isn't to get rid of a better scorer. The solution is Beno sucking less. And for what it's worth, I don't think he's a terrific fit with Brad either. I think his greatest strengths are his crafty finishing around the basket and his pull-up mid-ranger jumper. He's not particularly great coming off of screens.

And I really haven't seen John becoming the 3rd or 4th option. What I see is us getting it to Brad who looks for Kevin, and then if that doesn't happen, we look to John for some kind of bail out.

But it's also important to note that if we can't get what we want for John now, we never will, unless he finds a way to fit in here. He has the ability, he just has to not get so butthurt every time the offense doesn't revolve around him.

[SacKingZZZ]

Beno is somewhat involved but it's tough to keep him involved when he doesn't even have a 2/1 Assist to Turnover ratio and while a decent scorer, isn't good enough to warrant getting a ton of opportunities. the solution isn't to get rid of a better scorer. The solution is Beno sucking less. And for what it's worth, I don't think he's a terrific fit with Brad either. I think his greatest strengths are his crafty finishing around the basket and his pull-up mid-ranger jumper. He's not particularly great coming off of screens.

And I really haven't seen John becoming the 3rd or 4th option. What I see is us getting it to Brad who looks for Kevin, and then if that doesn't happen, we look to John for some kind of bail out.

But it's also important to note that if we can't get what we want for John now, we never will, unless he finds a way to fit in here. He has the ability, he just has to not get so butthurt every time the offense doesn't revolve around him.

He played pretty well off of him last season. He is also showing improvement as a spot up shooter. According to Beno his preference is to play pick and roll which is something Brad can do very well. They should run it like they used to for Webber and Bibby.

The order goes, ball to Beno, ball to Brad, Brad looks for Kevin, Brad looks for another cutter, ball goes to John. Some plays John gets a chance, and he does need to suck it up and play better, just like Beno, you're are exactly right about that. It won't change the negative impact surrounding the issue itself however.

[pillwenney]

He played pretty well off of him last season. He is also showing improvement as a spot up shooter. According to Beno his preference is to play pick and roll which is something Brad can do very well. They should run it like they used to for Webber and Bibby.

The order goes, ball to Beno, ball to Brad, Brad looks for Kevin, Brad looks for another cutter, ball goes to John. Some plays John gets a chance, and he does need to suck it up and play better, just like Beno, you're are exactly right about that. It won't change the negative impact surrounding the issue itself however.

I mean he's fine as a spot up shooter (although I think he was definitely better last year--his 3 point % backs that up), and on that token, so is John. But I'm just not sure it's the best way to use either of them. But I hope I'm wrong.

And I'm not saying there isn't negativity surrounding the issue. I'm just saying that it has a lot more to do with John's personality (I would guess it's the same mental thing that makes him play so much worse off the bench), and the fact that our best player came back than the size of the rotation.

[SacKingZZZ]

I mean he's fine as a spot up shooter (although I think he was definitely better last year--his 3 point % backs that up), and on that token, so is John. But I'm just not sure it's the best way to use either of them. But I hope I'm wrong.

And I'm not saying there isn't negativity surrounding the issue. I'm just saying that it has a lot more to do with John's personality (I would guess it's the same mental thing that makes him play so much worse off the bench), and the fact that our best player came back than the size of the rotation.

He's been getting better at it, but he's still pretty selective about when he takes those shots. If it isn't wide open he usually passes on it or chooses to make a move to the rim. The point is that the negativity of a veteran losing his role shouldn't even have a place on a team that is a) as horrible as this one, and/or b) a "rebuilding" one trying to develop it's youth.

[pillwenney]

He's been getting better at it, but he's still pretty selective about when he takes those shots. If it isn't wide open he usually passes on it or chooses to make a move to the rim. The point is that the negativity of a veteran losing his role shouldn't even have a place on a team that is a) as horrible as this one, and/or b) a "rebuilding" one trying to develop it's youth.

Right, the problem with John is that he's complaining about his touches a) after a game when he played like crap, and b) when the team's offense is clearly more effective with Kevin as the 1st option. The rebuilding part isn't really all that relevant.

[SacKingZZZ]

He's been getting better at it, but he's still pretty selective about when he takes those shots. If it isn't wide open he usually passes on it or chooses to make a move to the rim. The point is that the negativity of a veteran losing his role shouldn't even have a place on a team that is a) as horrible as this one, and/or b) a "rebuilding" one trying to develop it's youth.

Right, the problem with John is that he's complaining about his touches a) after a game when he played like crap, and b) when the team's offense is clearly more effective with Kevin as the 1st option. The rebuilding part isn't really all that relevant.

You say to-may-toe, John says to-ma-toe. He thinks he's played like crap because of that though, and the truth is he does have a point somewhat. True he needs to suck it up, but I don't even care at this point. I was saying that this shouldn't even be an issue on the kind of team this is, or at least should be and are supposed to be. It's just another negative in the mile long list of negatives that didn't need to be in the last few years. The problem is if John doesn't right the ship, or it can't be righted at all, his value will go down. Move him before it gets uglier.

[Smills91]

I'm one that actuallly believes our offense would be better suited with Salmons being the #1 option and Kevin feeding off of that with the #2 option.

I think BOTH players would be more effective in that situation.

[SacKingZZZ]

I'm one that actuallly believes our offense would be better suited with Salmons being the #1 option and Kevin feeding off of that with the #2 option.

I think BOTH players would be more effective in that situation.

I like John Salmons but Kevin is just far superior on offense, not only that he fits into the system the higher ups clearly want them to play. Now if they played differently it could work. For instance John is great in the open court so I'd say run and gun. I think Kevin could be pretty good with it too. Reggie kind of tried to play that way, or said he did, yet we seemed to do most of our work in the half court attempting to drive into the paint most of the time.

[pillwenney]

[

You say to-may-toe, John says to-ma-toe. He thinks he's played like crap because of that though, and the truth is he does have a point somewhat. True he needs to suck it up, but I don't even care at this point. I was saying that this shouldn't even be an issue on the kind of team this is, or at least should be and are supposed to be. It's just another negative in the mile long list of negatives that didn't need to be in the last few years. The problem is if John doesn't right the ship, or it can't be righted at all, his value will go down. Move him before it gets uglier.

I'm just saying that it shouldn't be an issue on any team, ever. And granted, I also think we're all probably making a bigger deal out of the comments than what is really called for. But the point is that if we can't move him for anything valuable right now, his value won't go down all that much, and actually would probably be most valuable when he expires.

Switching gears here, kinda, speaking of "when he expires", who else thinks it's actually quite likely that he'll use his early termination option and become a FA in the summer of '10? If he keeps up near his production, the only reason I don't think he would would be the competition, but so many teams have cap space, I think it would still be a wise move for him financially.

[SacKingZZZ]

I'm just saying that it shouldn't be an issue on any team, ever. And granted, I also think we're all probably making a bigger deal out of the comments than what is really called for. But the point is that if we can't move him for anything valuable right now, his value won't go down all that much, and actually would probably be most valuable when he expires.

Switching gears here, kinda, speaking of "when he expires", who else thinks it's actually quite likely that he'll use his early termination option and become a FA in the summer of '10? If he keeps up near his production, the only reason I don't think he would would be the competition, but so many teams have cap space, I think it would still be a wise move for him financially.

I bet anything it was John Salmons feeling somewhat called out for playing poorly, and knowing that it isn't entirely his fault he became a little defensive about it. Probably not a huge deal, but not so big deals turn into huge deals with the kind of environment the Kings are in right now. I'm sure John has more than a few complexes in regards to role/playing time looking at his history.