1/12/2009 Woelfel: Conley deal waiting for Herb (poll added)

aboveAverage · Post #121 » by **aboveAverage** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:30 pm

No one here cares about trading Joe. Joe is worthless to me and I don't give a crap who we trade him for.

It's the Sessions thing that makes it a bad trade, because Sessions>Conley, and I don't believe Conley will ever be good in the NBA.

jeremyd236 · Post #122 » by **jeremyd236** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:31 pm

europa wrote:
jeremyd236 wrote:If Hammond makes this trade, it's basically saying "I made a mistake" with drafting Alexander.

It could also be saying he and/or Skiles don't believe Sessions is the right fit for this team as its PG of the future.

If that's the case, then you trade Sessions for Conley straight up. Sessions averages more points, assists, and rebounds per game over his career than Conley does in almost identical minutes. There's no way you trade Sessions + a number 8 overall pick for Conley, unless we're getting a 1st rounder back.

LUKE23 · Post #123 » by **LUKE23** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:32 pm

carmelbrownqueen wrote:If Hammond makes this trade too me it says.. "I love Luc Richard Mbah a Moute" and he's playing so well for us that I am no longer willing to wait for Joe Alexander to live up to his potential."

That doesn't make much sense that you would justify giving up on Alexander after only 1/2 season, but then being very happy about landing a PG that has shown little in 1 1/2 seasons.

How are they "waiting" for Joe Alexander? They knew he wasn't going to be a major impact guy in the first year as it was when they drafted him.

europa · Post #124 » by **europa** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:32 pm

carmelbrownqueen wrote:If Hammond makes this trade too me it says.. "I love Luc Richard Mbah a Moute" and he's playing so well for us that I am no longer willing to wait for Joe Alexander to live up to his potential."

Yup. And I'll go back to my prior point that it also stands in marked contrast to how the previous regime did things. Instead of keeping players around because they have perceived "talent" and or "value," Hammond is making moves to bring in the players he wants and build the team he wants and Skiles wants. I like that approach quite a bit. I don't like keeping players who are bad fits just because they carry a perception of talent or value. It weakens your team as we saw rather clearly the past two seasons. I like Sessions a lot but if Hammond and Skiles have any concerns or questions about him, now is the time to move him - especially if the return is a player with Conley's potential.

crkone · Post #125 » by **crkone** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:35 pm

The more that I think about it, Conley should have shown way more than he has for being a very high draft pick. He should at least be starting. Now is that because his coaches are not giving him playing time, or is it because he just isn't capable of playing on this level? His stats are garbage and he doesn't shoot the ball well. At least Sessions can get to the line nicely. What is the one skill Conley has that is above average for a PG? Sessions can penetrate with the best of them, and Ridnour is basically average at everything he does (which in itself may be an above average skillset).

EastSideBucksFan · Post #126 » by **EastSideBucksFan** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:37 pm

europa wrote:
carmelbrownqueen wrote:If Hammond makes this trade too me it says.. "I love Luc Richard Mbah a Moute" and he's playing so well for us that I am no longer willing to wait for Joe Alexander to live up to his potential."

Yup. And I'll go back to my prior point that it also stands in marked contrast to how the previous regime did things. Instead of keeping players around because they have perceived "talent" and or "value," Hammond is making moves to bring in the players he wants and build the team he wants and Skiles wants. I like that approach quite a bit. I don't like keeping players who are bad fits just because they carry a perception of talent or value. It weakens your team as we saw rather clearly the past two seasons. I like Sessions a lot but if Hammond and Skiles have any concerns or questions about him, now is the time to move him - especially if the return is a player with Conley's potential.

Don't you have to fault Hammond though for blowing it on a 1st round pick in his first draft and then basically giving him away halfway through the first season?

Does anyone think we would be trading Speights, Lopez, Bayless or Augustin at this point?

Probably not

Post #127 » by **ReasonablySober** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:37 pm

Sessions is being overrated here. He's a scoring point guard that can't shoot and doesn't defend. That being what it is, how likely do you see someone like that being given the keys to Skiles' team? Also, Will Perdue hit it on the head: Luc makes JA completely expendable. They play the same position, LRMAM just plays it much better and I don't see that changing any time soon.

In the end we're giving up two guys that don't fit into the future plans of this team and getting back a young, physically gifted kid that Skiles can work with on the cheap for the next few years.

LUKE23 · Post #128 » by **LUKE23** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:37 pm

crkone wrote:The more that I think about it, Conley should have shown way more than he has for being a very high draft pick. He should at least be starting. Now is that because his coaches are not giving him playing time, or is it because he just isn't capable of playing on this level? His stats are garbage and he doesn't shoot the ball well. At least Sessions can get to the line nicely. What is the one skill Conley has that is above average for a PG? Sessions can penetrate with the best of them, and Ridnour is basically average at everything he does (which in itself may be an above average skillset).

He hasn't shown one really big time skill yet in the pros. He's no question a better defender than Sessions, but he's not an elite defender like some people have been saying in this thread. Not to mention, the Bucks issue this season has not been defense, it has been offense.

The "bad fit" or "developing" excuse really shouldn't apply to top 5 picks. If you're a legitimate top 5 talent, then you play well regardless of your situation, assuming you're getting minutes, and Conley has gotten 25 minutes a night both season, adequate playing time.

aboveAverage · Post #129 » by **aboveAverage** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:38 pm

DrugBust wrote:Sessions is being overrated here. He's a scoring point guard that can't shoot and doesn't defend. That being what it is, how likely do you see someone like that being given the keys to Skiles' team? Also, Will Perdue hit it on the head: Luc makes JA completely expendable. They play the same position, LRMAM just plays it much better and I don't see that changing any time soon.

In the end we're giving up two guys that don't fit into the future plans of this team and getting back a young, physically gifted kid that Skiles can work with on the cheap for the next few years.

What is Sessions if he isn't an a young, physically gifted kid?

europa · Post #130 » by **europa** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:39 pm

EastSideBucksFan wrote:
europa wrote:
carmelbrownqueen wrote:If Hammond makes this trade too me it says.. "I love Luc Richard Mbah a Moute" and he's playing so well for us that I am no longer willing to wait for Joe Alexander to live up to his potential."

Yup. And I'll go back to my prior point that it also stands in marked contrast to how the previous regime did things. Instead of keeping players around because they have perceived "talent" and or "value," Hammond is making moves to bring in the players he wants and build the team he wants and Skiles wants. I like that approach quite a bit. I don't like keeping players who are bad fits just because they carry a perception of talent or value. It weakens your team as we saw rather clearly the past two seasons. I like Sessions a lot but if Hammond and Skiles have any concerns or questions about him, now is the time to move him - especially if the return is a player with Conley's potential.

Don't you have to fault Hammond though for blowing it on a 1st round pick in his first draft and then basically giving him away halfway through the first season?

Yup. That's a mark against him. But as noted earlier, I like the fact he will try to correct that mistake instead of allowing it to fester.

Maybe Alexander will become a player in time. That's certainly possible. But if the Bucks have identified M&M as the SF of the future, then Alexander is expendable - especially with Jefferson on the roster.

SupremeHustle · Post #131 » by **SupremeHustle** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:39 pm

crkone wrote:The more that I think about it, Conley should have shown way more than he has for being a very high draft pick. He should at least be starting. Now is that because his coaches are not giving him playing time, or is it because he just isn't capable of playing on this level? His stats are garbage and he doesn't shoot the ball well. At least Sessions can get to the line nicely. What is the one skill Conley has that is above average for a PG? Sessions can penetrate with the best of them, and Ridnour is basically average at everything he does (which in itself may be an above average skillset).

Conley can get to the cup off the dribble. Once he gets there, though -- not pretty.

I hope I'm dead wrong about the kid.

Post #132 » by **ReasonablySober** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:41 pm

LUKE23 wrote:
carmelbrownqueen wrote:If Hammond makes this trade too me it says.. "I love Luc Richard Mbah a Moute" and he's playing so well for us that I am no longer willing to wait for Joe Alexander to live up to his potential."

That doesn't make much sense that you would justify giving up on Alexander after only 1/2 season, but then being very happy about landing a PG that has shown little in 1 1/2 seasons.

How are they "waiting" for Joe Alexander? They knew he wasn't going to be a major impact guy in the first year as it was when they drafted him.

What they likely didn't know was that Luc was a legit starting SF the moment he inked that contract. I'm sure they had hopes he could contribute and perhaps get 10-12 minutes backing up three positions, but he looks like someone that should be playing 34 mpg and SF is his best position. Once that became obvious you had to believe JA's time here had an expiration date. There's just no room for him.

aboveAverage · Post #133 » by **aboveAverage** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:41 pm

At least Sessions provides scoring. Now our dreadful offense will be even worse when Conley comes in the game with the rest of the bench.

MilBucksBackOnTop06 · Post #134 » by **MilBucksBackOnTop06** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:41 pm

LUKE23 wrote:
I wasn't comfortable with the idea of giving Sessions big money this summer.

He wouldn't have gotten big money this summer, MLE max. The teams that have cap space beyond MLE are all saving it for the 2010 FA bonanza. He wouldn't have gotten more than the MLE.

This is only a good trade for the Bucks if Conley turns out the best player of the three involved (or the Bucks get a first and that player turns out the best of the four involved).

I am only gonna say this one more time...Luke23....YOU DO NOT LOOK AT DEALS ANYMORE LIKE THAT MY FRIEND!

Stop looking at value for value or even talent for talent or stats for stats in NBA trades anymore! You do not factor stuff like that in anymore...

What you may see as 'better' is not better to what this team needs! Statisically Sessions may be the one who is better right now...but in the long run Mike Conley is 'BETTER.'

And I can't wait until he is so I can say I told you so. I do not mean to sound repetitious but I am going through all of these post replies and read the same thing...Conley is a player who makes a team better. Sessions nor Alexande

Ultimately it will come down to who can grasp the concepts down the best and play within the system the best and seize their opportunity and then make it happen for their respective teams.

Any player can put up 'spot minutes numbers' like Sessions. But lets see when you go around the league a couple of times and smarter players and vets force you to make adjustments to all the weaknesses in your game...and see how you respond.

If you ask me the Bucks wanted to take Conley last year over Yi Jinalian and now that he is gone they have revisited it. Many thought he was a frontrunner to be a Buck last year along with Jeff Green. Now both of them would have been excellent choices.

I for the life of me do not understand what you people are thinking or what you have to complain about with this deal as it stands.

Look, you are getting a lottery pick in Conley for another one in Alexander. And then another pick for basically a second rounder (Sessions) who was in the D-League last year!

You can flip flop them around to suit your fancy. I wish they would simply give us Darrell Arthur as well and be done with it...because we do not draft well at all. But I'll take it...

So what is the problem!? :dontknow:

I love the deal...

Post #135 » by **ReasonablySober** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:42 pm

aboveAverage wrote:What is Sessions if he isn't an a young, physically gifted kid?

Not physically gifted? He's not as strong, fast or quick as Conley.

LUKE23 · Post #136 » by **LUKE23** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:43 pm

Not physically gifted? He's not as strong, fast or quick as Conley.

Why can Sessions get to the rim just as well if not better then?

SupremeHustle · Post #137 » by **SupremeHustle** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:43 pm

DrugBust wrote:
LUKE23 wrote:
carmelbrownqueen wrote:If Hammond makes this trade too me it says.. "I love Luc Richard Mbah a Moute" and he's playing so well for us that I am no longer willing to wait for Joe Alexander to live up to his potential."

That doesn't make much sense that you would justify giving up on Alexander after only 1/2 season, but then being very happy about landing a PG that has shown little in 1 1/2 seasons.

How are they "waiting" for Joe Alexander? They knew he wasn't going to be a major impact guy in the first year as it was when they drafted him.

What they likely didn't know was that Luc was a legit starting SF the moment he inked that contract. I'm sure they had hopes he could contribute and perhaps get 10-12 minutes backing up three positions, but he looks like someone that should be playing 34 mpg and SF is his best position. Once that became obvious you had to believe JA's time here had an expiration date. There's just no room for him.

That's fine, but you don't give him away. Swap him for a player in a similar situation. Preferably a SG or PF.

Post #138 » by **ReasonablySober** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:46 pm

LUKE23 wrote:
Not physically gifted? He's not as strong, fast or quick as Conley.

Why can Sessions get to the rim just as well if not better then?

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Where the athleticism makes a difference is on the defensive side of the ball.

carmelbrownqueen · Post #139 » by **carmelbrownqueen** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:46 pm

LUKE23 wrote:
carmelbrownqueen wrote:If Hammond makes this trade too me it says.. "I love Luc Richard Mbah a Moute" and he's playing so well for us that I am no longer willing to wait for Joe Alexander to live up to his potential."

That doesn't make much sense that you would justify giving up on Alexander after only 1/2 season, but then being very happy about landing a PG that has shown little in 1 1/2 seasons.

How are they "waiting" for Joe Alexander? They knew he wasn't going to be a major impact guy in the first year as it was when they drafted him.

I believe they like Joe and his potential, but they love Mbah a Moute and feel he is the future for us at the 3. Joe needs time to develop, they knew that.. but at this point it appears as if they believe Conley will be a better player than Alexander and Sessions long term. Perhaps they will be wrong in the end on that.. and Sessions will become a great PG, but I don't think anyone in the front office truly believes that right now or they wouldn't even consider this deal.

smauss · Post #140 » by **smauss** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:46 pm

DrugBust wrote:Sessions is being overrated here. He's a scoring point guard that can't shoot and doesn't defend. That being what it is, how likely do you see someone like that being given the keys to Skiles' team? Also, Will Perdue hit it on the head: Luc makes JA completely expendable. They play the same position, LRMAM just plays it much better and I don't see that changing any time soon.

In the end we're giving up two guys that don't fit into the future plans of this team and getting back a young, physically gifted kid that Skiles can work with on the cheap for the next few years.

I couldn't agree more, especially with the bolded part! Well said DB!

Are you in favor of the proposed trade (Conley for Sessions/JA)?