1/12/2009 Woelfel: Conley deal waiting for Herb (poll added)

[skones]

I wasn't a Conley guy heading into the 2007 draft. In fact I was against drafting him. I thought he'd be a good starting point guard in this league but I didn't think he'd be a star. With that being said, I like him is a player a hell of a lot more than I do Sessions at this point.

When I watch Sessions run this team it makes me want to pull my hair out, and I have long freaking hair. Ridnour runs an offense, he promotes ball movement. He makes an effort to get guys involved and spread the ball around. When I watch Sessions play I don't feel that he's doing that AT ALL. I see a score first combo guard who happens to be solid at passing. I was very optimistic with regards to Sessions earlier this season given his April last year, but I have since soured. The guy dribbles, dribbles, dribbles, and runs around the floor on offense. He looks for his shot first and when he doesn't see it, he makes a last ditch effort to set somebody up. It's like he's Mo but instead of shooting jumpers, he gets into the lane. I'm not saying that's not a valuable commodity in this league, but I don't think it fits AT ALL what we're trying to do here. I DON'T think he'll be an all-star. I think he's destined to be a starting point guard on a bad team or a good backup on a good team. Period.

Joe Alexander, what do you say? I figured he would have more value around the league but apparently not. He's not shown ANYTHING this season. I completely agree with the sentiments mentioned earlier in this thread with regards to there not being room on this roster with the emergence of LRMAM.

With Conley you get a guy who was highly regarded a year and a few short months ago. He's almost a full year younger than Alexander and his scouting reports and projections point to a guy that Skiles and Hammond really seem to like in this situation. I also like how Conley knows how to play with a big man. He played with Oden for how many years? The guy will look to get Bogut involved and will likely get the ball to him in some pretty damn good spots. Also, here's some food for thought, Conley played with Gasol for exactly one month last season. In that month, he posted his best numbers notching 10.3 points, 3 rebounds, 5.4 assists, 1.2 steals and 2 TO's on 44% from the field and 71% from the line.

Some point guards who posted lackluster rookie campaigns:
Deron Williams
Steve Nash
Jose Calderon
Baron Davis
Rajon Rondo
Chauncey Billups
Tony Parker
Devin Harris

I realize the majority of those guys had better sophomore seasons than Conley up to this point but it's food for thought nonetheless.

[Bernman]

Point guards who have improved dramatically after switching teams:

Devin Harris- Dallas to New Jersey
Steve Nash- Phoenix to Dallas
Chauncey Billups- Boston/Toronto/Minnesota to Detroit

People are flat out ignorant to be writing off young point guards like Mike Conley and Raymond Felton almost completely, just because they produced modest results in the NBA w/ their first teams.

[bigkurty]

OK so say you are Hammond and you have to talk Kohl into doing signing off, what would actually be your argument. For as much as I get on Kohl, he watches a lot of basketball and is not stupid and knows Conley hasn't done anything remotely resembling a player who will develop into a really good player while Sessions has done that. So how the hell do you actually talk him into this?

[europa]

Point guards who have improved dramatically after switching teams:

Devin Harris- Dallas to New Jersey
Steve Nash- Phoenix to Dallas

Assuming one believes Mo Williams is a PG he would be another to put on this list.

[carmelbrownqueen]

I find it amusing that the same people praising Hammond for cutting his losses are the same people who were up in arms against the rest of us who criticized Alexander's ability in summer league and in the first half of the season.

If Hammond makes this trade too me it says.. "I love Luc Richard Mbah a Moute" and he's playing so well for us that I am no longer willing to wait for Joe Alexander to live up to his potential."

I just can't get with that line of thinking for a couple reasons. Joe was going to need time to develop, why pull the plug after a few short months? That's not 'waiting', they didn't give the guy the opportunity because they're so gung-ho on making the playoffs like always. Could Peterson not do his magic with Joe? What makes us think he can with Conley, who has been terrible his first 1+ years in the league?

DB made the point to think of Luc as the first rounder and Joe as the second rounder. Although that may make things easier for some, it's simply living in a fantasy world, not realistic. I could pretend Michael Redd makes 6 million a year but he doesn't. The fact remains that we wasted a pick in the top 10 and we're giving him away in the reported deal (assuming nothing more is added). Huge opportunity cost and so many of us knew it.

Personally I would prefer to wait on Joe to develop because I believe he will end up being a good player (probably not a star though).. however that doesn't seem to be the line of thinking with the Bucks right now because they have gotten so much from a guy like M & M. I could see M & M + Alexander equalling the future for us at the SF position but the Bucks have apparently made the decision that Conley could be their Billups here (possibly).

[Jollay]

I also like how Conley knows how to play with a big man. He played with Oden for how many years? The guy will look to get Bogut involved and will likely get the ball to him in some pretty damn good spots. .

I like your post, and I agree, but really I don't give Conley all that much credit for being able to lob the ball to Oden, in AAU and for one year at Ohio State.

Still, I say why not? JA is redundant with Luc and I think clearly Conley remains a gamble with a far bigger possible reward than with Sessions.

[icat2000]

I don't mind the deal. Sometimes players just need a change of scenery. Roll the dice.

Sessions makes numerous mistakes at crucial times and Skiles ends up yanking him and the team spacing seems out of whack when Sessions is in the game.

JA, well as many have alluded to Luc has taken that role and makes him redundant so why keep someone around that the Bucks can't really give him minutes.

[aaprigs311]

I'm sickened that Hammond even needs Kohl's approval for this trade.

[rilamann]

I have to say Conley's man-love for Oden scares me. Add to the fact his dad is his agent as well as Odens agent and that has to be in the back of their mind of them trying to reunite in a couple of years.

In that case maybe Oden comes here to join his buddy Conley in Milwaukee.

I'd rather have Conley at PG than Session but im not a huge fan of the trade because we give up JA.I guess im one of the fe wpeople on this board that still has solid expectations for JA.

I guess i'd probably do it if its Sessions/JA for Conley/1st rd pick.If it Conley develops and gets with the right team I could almost see him becomming a poor man's Chris Paul type of player.Even a poor man's Chris Paul would be pretty damn good.

[TheMachine]

And why does Herb have to approve? If he wants to actually approve it, it shouldn't spend more than 30 seconds on his desk. So is Hammond actually running this team, or is it Herb and cronies again?

Exactly. I am asking the same thing. This is not a major move financially so even if Herb has to sign off, it shouldn' t ake more than 30 seconds. If your GM and coach are coming to you with this move they want to make, you sign it and don't even question it. Who is making the bball decisions anyway?

That's why I don't think this is anywhere near a done deal and my guess is it probably won't happen (at least in the form it is being rumored at). Surely Kolh's approval can't be the hold up right?

[Dags]

I like it if, and only if, we get a high first out of it. Nothing worse than top-3 protected, and then unprotected next year. Sessions >>> Conley. The difference is moving up from #8 of Alexander to top-5. Don't see why anyone would be ok with this not getting us into top-5. Unrealistic? No more than giving up 2 assets for someone who is a bust so far.

[carmelbrownqueen]

I wasn't a Conley guy heading into the 2007 draft. In fact I was against drafting him. I thought he'd be a good starting point guard in this league but I didn't think he'd be a star. With that being said, I like him is a player a hell of a lot more than I do Sessions at this point.

When I watch Sessions run this team it makes me want to pull my hair out, and I have long freaking hair. Ridnour runs an offense, he promotes ball movement. He makes an effort to get guys involved and spread the ball around. When I watch Sessions play I don't feel that he's doing that AT ALL. I see a score first combo guard who happens to be solid at passing. I was very optimistic with regards to Sessions earlier this season given his April last year, but I have since soured. The guy dribbles, dribbles, dribbles, and runs around the floor on offense. He looks for his shot first and when he doesn't see it, he makes a last ditch effort to set somebody up. It's like he's Mo but instead of shooting jumpers, he gets into the lane. I'm not saying that's not a valuable commodity in this league, but I don't think it fits AT ALL what we're trying to do here. I DON'T think he'll be an all-star. I think he's destined to be a starting point guard on a bad team or a good backup on a good team. Period.

Joe Alexander, what do you say? I figured he would have more value around the league but apparently not. He's not shown ANYTHING this season. I completely agree with the sentiments mentioned earlier in this thread with regards to there not being room on this roster with the emergence of LRMAM.

With Conley you get a guy who was highly regarded a year and a few short months ago. He's almost a full year younger than Alexander and his scouting reports and projections point to a guy that Skiles and Hammond really seem to like in this situation. I also like how Conley knows how to play with a big man. He played with Oden for how many years? The guy will look to get Bogut involved and will likely get the ball to him in some pretty damn good spots. Also, here's some food for thought, Conley played with Gasol for exactly one month last season. In that month, he posted his best numbers notching 10.3 points, 3 rebounds, 5.4 assists, 1.2 steals and 2 TO's on 44% from the field and 71% from the line.

Some point guards who posted lackluster rookie campaigns:
Deron Williams
Steve Nash
Jose Calderon
Baron Davis
Rajon Rondo
Chauncey Billups
Tony Parker
Devin Harris

I realize the majority of those guys had better sophomore seasons than Conley up to this point but it's food for thought nonetheless.

There a number of people who share this same assessment when it comes to how Sessions runs a team, and believe that all ball movement stops when he gets minutes behind Ridnour.

[power4wardjinx]

This deal sucks.

Sure does. Achieve's very little on the money end. Wrong guys, and too soon with JA, though I'll be shocked if he isn't a bust.

I honestly believe RFA's will be very cheap this coming summer.

We'll need to pay a PF, Charlie or no Charlie.

As for JA, I don't really care about him that much. I didn't like the pick on draft day and he hasn't proven anything different yet so I am fine with him leaving. However is we are using him as a chip, we need to use him to help trade one of Gadz, RJ, or Redd. One of those 3 needs to go before anyone else.

I'm beginning to think Hammond isn't real good at making proactive deals.

[Isocleas2]

I'm signed on for this deal. I don't like Sessions as a starter and after this season we're going to have to pay him like one. My only gripe is giving up on Joe before we get to see what he's all about. But I guess that's why we have coaches to make those kinds of decisions.

Potsie, Sessions, and Gadz for Conley and Darko.

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

What about all of Sessions' point guard instincts which can't be learned?

Different subject - prior to this trade coming up, I was about to create a thread asking Alexander supporters (I'm agnostic in that regard) about the timeline they see for him. If he's going to be good down the road, how good will he be and when? To me, it's hard to imagine him being good next year, and after that it's impossible to say. Many said projects take years and can't be judged before then, but how many years were we talking about, and how would we know if he was on track?

That whole discussion may be Memphis's problem soon, so perhaps it doesn't matter.

[jerrod]

i think the idea that some point guards have had bad rookie seasons and then improved drastically as an agrument to make the trade is hilarious.

i've seen a ton of people claim that sessions is a rookie this year because of his limited playing time last year.

and some of those 2 groups of people, are the same

[carmelbrownqueen]

What about all of Sessions' point guard instincts which can't be learned?

Different subject - prior to this trade coming up, I was about to create a thread asking Alexander supporters (I'm agnostic in that regard) about the timeline they see for him. If he's going to be good down the road, how good will he be and when? To me, it's hard to imagine him being good next year, and after that it's impossible to say. Many said projects take years and can't be judged before then, but how many years were we talking about, and how would we know if he was on track?

That whole discussion may be Memphis's problem soon, so perhaps it doesn't matter.

I think it might be a couple of years before Joe is able to consistently contribute and I think he could end up being a good player.

[Fight the Tank]

We are about six months away from trading Alexander for cash anyways.

[worthlessBucks]

i think the idea that some point guards have had bad rookie seasons and then improved drastically as an agrument to make the trade is hilarious.

i've seen a ton of people claim that sessions is a rookie this year because of his limited playing time last year.

and some of those 2 groups of people, are the same

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=777168&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

[unklchuk]

All the folks who hate this proposed trade hate it right now. Which is fine because Conley hasn't proven anything so far in the NBA. But if Hammond/Skiles are right in believing he still has difference-maker potential, and if Skiles brings him along nicely, most of you will change your mind. (And BTW, he doesn't have to become an all-star - he just has to do a very good job of running this team together with improving the team defense. If he eventually manifests the intangibles, we can live very nicely with average stats.)

I'm guessing that both Sessions and Alexander will become solid NBA players (Sessions with I think Mo-like limitations). If Hammond/Skiles are right, we're trading value for value. But, since I have faith so far in Hammond/Skiles, I will expect that we'll be getting the best player. I like quality (and precise fit) over quantity.