1/12/2009 Woelfel: Conley deal waiting for Herb (poll added)

[BDUB_30]

That sucks, why do we have to get stuck with stupid Skiles and his stupid history of winning.

3rd team.... For a reason... And not his choosing...

You have about another year until he starts pissing off his players, and ultimately losing them...

Not if we keep getting new players

HAHHAHA !

[GrandAdmiralDan]

I really don't understand this at all. It is pretty much a consensus that we will have to decide between signing CV or Sesh correct?

No. There is no consensus on that.
It was never likely we were going to keep CV on a new contract. It was somewhat likely, but far, far from certain that we would try to retain Sessions. It was always possible that we retain neither, depending on financial factors especially when it came to Sessions.

- Luc Mbaute a Boute has exceeded expectations SO MUCH (long term starter, defensive game changing potential) that Joe Alexander is expendible. And maybe he is exactly where the organization thought he would be (though more likely he has dissapointed). Regardless, when you hit a home run (Luc), then you can afford to change your plans in other areas

I don't agree with that logic at all. You can use the Mbah A Moute pick as evidence that Hammond didn't completely botch the last draft, but that doesn't justify the Joe Alexander pick or make him expendable. That would severely diminish the "home run" hit with Mbah A Moute.

Even if you believe that Joe Alexander has more value to this team as a trade asset than as a player on our roster (particularly with the presence of Richard Jefferson and Mbah A Moute), we should still try and get good value for him in some kind of trade.

Perhaps this Memphis trade will prove to be good value, in which case that's fine. But I totally disagree with the implication that just because we struck gold with Mbah A Moute, it doesn't even matter if we would just waste JA.

However, you are far, far away from being totally off your rocker on this, and I do understand what you are saying about having to perhaps outbid other teams trying to trade for Conley by "overpaying" with what we are offering. The truth is that because of budget concerns in the reality of the NBA, and our market in particular, it just isn't possible to keep all of your assets anyway. Therefore, if Conley is a guy we really want, and we have to give up more of our assets than we probably should to get him, this also might allow us to keep an asset down the road that we otherwise might have had to let walk if we had kept Alexander and were still developing him, with perhaps a new contract on its way after his rookie scale contract.

That to me is a reasonable justification, even if all we get back in addition to Conley is a 2nd round pick, although I do really hope there is some additional benefit to us, whether it be a better pick, right to swap 1st round picks, cash, etc.

I think another point to keep in mind is in Woefel's article. We all know that LRMAM has sort of taken Joe's spot now and for the next couple years. But it also sounds like they team is high on Ersan and feels that he'll be coming back soon. If that is the case then this move also clears room and playing time for him when that happens.

I agree with the Ersan angle.
Some of us recognized the Ersan component even before we drafted Alexander though.
We already had acquired Richard Jefferson. We still wanted to bring Ersan back over at some point. We were targeting Mbah A Moute in the 2nd round. Our 2nd string center behind Andrew Bogut, the guy that he practices against and is supposed to sharpen his skills agains, was Dan Gadzuric. Why did we still pick Joe Alexander? Why not Brook Lopez or Roy Hibbert? Or even DJ Augustin, to some degree? Those were really the only players that made sense for this team if we were planning on keeping them. If we weren't married to keeping that player anyway, not only did those three likely have more initial value in a possible trade during their rookie years, but so did Bayless (who I would not in any way have wanted US to keep).

midranger in particular has been pointing to the Ersan angle ever since then.

Now that I think about this trade a bit more, if its going to be a 2nd round pick, I'd rather try to get them to include Darko. We desperately need some size going into the playoffs and he can play both frontcourt positions and would probably be our starter next to Bogut.

If its Conley/Darko for Sessions/JA then that would almost be a slam dunk deal for me

We're not sending out anywhere close to enough salary to be able to take back Darko. If that was not a factor, I'd be on board with you in wanting Darko.
If they want to add Darko while we add Gadzuric, that would make me feel much better about this deal.

It would be kind of funny if Hammond sent away Joe Alexander and acquired Darko in the same trade. Two of his botched top 10 picks.

I don't like the deal. I'm guessing that even if a first rounder is the pick included it will be lotto or top 3 protected and at this point that is the direction Memphis is headed. That would leave the deal and Conley for Sessions/JA. Although JA is not playing right now, the times he does play you can see the intensitiy players we have drafted before have lacked. As of this point I view Sessions as a better PG than Conley. In my eyes, both teams are traded for these players' potentials, but we are trading 2 players and they are trading 1 and if I had to bet I would go with one of Sessions or JA panning out over Conley.

If it is a 1st round pick, it wouldn't necessarily be Memphis' own pick.
They own the Lakers 2010 1st, top 6 protected, they got as part of the Pau Gasol trade.
That is almost certainly at this point going to be one of the last 5 picks in the 1st round, but you never know. I think we could reasonably get that included in this deal, whereas we'd have almost no shot at getting Memphis' own 1st round pick without such heavy protection that we don't get it for 4 years and/or it ends up turning into a 2nd round pick at some point perhaps.

This deal works in the checker and the one I'd like to see done.

I know where you are going on having more players involved but it seems like that won't happen. I think the Memphis poster sent us in the right direction. This will probably be the Lakers 2010 pick they got as part of the Gasol trade.

Can we take that pick right away and package it with CV?

Perhaps that could get us the frontcourt help we so desperately need

Yes. No waiting period required.
We'd have that 2010 pick, our own 2010 pick, and our own 2009 pick. We could trade away two of those 1sts, just not all three.

I agree, sis. I think this deal sends out a strong signal that Hammond and/or Skiles aren't convinced Sessions is the right PG long-term for this team. And they believe Conley can be.

Hammond still really likes Sessions.
Skiles initially really liked Sessions but didn't like what he saw from Sessions in training camp.
Neither ever liked Sessions as much as people on this board liked him.
Sessions managed to win himself into Skiles good graces again not long after that, but Sessions play in recent weeks (other than the last few games) caused Skiles to really sour on Sessions, it seems somewhat permanently.

Hammond is aware of this and has no intention of getting rid of Skiles, therefore he is attempting to adjust the roster accordingly. I have no problem with adjusting the roster (within reason) for a GOOD coach like Skiles. I just wasn't a fan of when Kohl and the committee forced Harris to do that for Stotts (especially when Stotts himself apparently wasn't even a real fan of Villanueva, further evidence of how messed up our organization was).

We just need a time machine in order to get this deal the 100% RealGm stamp of approval. Perhaps we can teleport back 18-months to July 2007. Imagine this thread being started on the board.

"Guy's, Woelfel is reporting that the Bucks have traded the guy the Bucks just picked in the secound round (Ramon Sessions) along with our 2008 pick (top-7 protected) for Mike Conley, Jr. AND the Lakers 2010 pick."

I realize there is a massive obvious flaw here of Conley playing 100 games and not doing much, but it you don't like this deal, just pretend it went down 18-months earlier as stated above in italics.

If this is the trade that happens I wont be happy unless somebody kneecaps Kobe before next season.

I'm glad this has never happened, but is anyone else surprised that we haven't heard of some crazed fan attempting to do something like that in an attempt to get their team a better draft pick?

What if Memphis throws in Darrell Arthur?

(Suggested on dimemag.com)

I'd be much more interested in Sessions/JA for Conley/Arthur.

Fine.
At this point I just want something else in addition to Conley that is more beneficial to us than a 2nd round pick.

Sessions has been aweful this year at the pg ...just aweful .

Are you xTitan's long lost brother?

Sessions and JA both active....

Once again, this means nothing in the NBA.
It would be very telling if they were INACTIVE, but them being active only means that the trade isn't 100% final with all paperwork being submitted to the league office, etc.

[steger_3434]

yeah i dont like the trade if we dont get the pick ....if we dont get the pick and we make the trade , one of the two ( ja /sessions ) .. must really suck ass .. for real .


i mean **** ...what kind of a blunder is that ..you guys that didnt like ja seem to have been right ....what a damn shame ...to bad we didnt draft brook lopez's ol frankenstien lookin ass .

at the frankestein comment.

I'm just surprised more people haven't been up in arms on JA. The fact he looked worse than a street free agent in summer league was enough to make me think this kid had nothing in him. I do see a lot of people calling Conley a bust and JA a guy with a ton of potential. Just because you haven't seen a guy play doesn't mean he has potential. He might just suck. I'm not saying Conley isn't a bust or is a good player. I'm just saying JA is Marcus Haislip with hustle so instead of being out of the league in 3 years he'll be out in 5.

[Epicurus]

I think small market teams to get beyond mediocre (41 wins plus or minus 4 or 5), especially to get into the plus 50 range need either to 1) be innovators in style of play or 2) take some personnel risks which pay off. Relating "2" to the Bucks, perhaps the acquisition of Conley makes it more possible to get Oden (I think his contract in his third year is at the option of the club). The Bucks with Conley create for Oden a place with his long-time buddy (and skill enabler), not far from their mutual hometown and thus improved and simplified access for the dad/agent. Now the Bucks would need to give Portland something for a sign and deal of Oden, I suppose, as I doubt if Portland would just let him walk (not picking up the option).

The point being the Bucks could become a elite team with both Conley and Oden clicking as they did from junior high through one year of college. Both would fit well with the fellow Hoosier Skiles and his prefered style on offense and defense (another Indiana All-Star, like those two).

Just really pulling this out of the anal cavity in an attempt to understand why Conley (and assuming the GM is building for a more than mediocre team).

[aaprigs311]

That sucks, why do we have to get stuck with stupid Skiles and his stupid history of winning.

3rd team.... For a reason... And not his choosing...

You have about another year until he starts pissing off his players, and ultimately losing them...

You have about another year until Lebron jets and your team moves to Vegas. See you at the bottom.

[aaprigs311]

This trade only benefits us. Conley is putting up 9/4 in Memphis, and his assist numbers and mind for the game will improve under Skiles' wing. You guys have to remember that Conley was injured at least half the season last year, and for whatever reason, coach Ivaronnie hasn't seen Mike as the right fit for that squad. He's got a lot more potential than Sessions, we all know that. Skiles has worked wonders for many pg's in this league. He even got a Starbury team in the playoffs. We have one of the best development guys in the league in Bill Peterson, who will get the most out of a players potential. We won't have a contract situation on our hands this year. This is a no brainer.

I don't mean to burst your bubble, but Conley is putting up closer to 7/3 a game in Memphis.

[paulpressey25]

It would be funny if we got a 30 page thread like we did with Landry only to have nothing happen.

Is it out of the realm of possibility for Kohl to say "Let Ramon and Joe play on last game in DC that I can personally attend and I'll decide for good after I watch them once more"

[RideEmCowboy24]

It would be funny if we got a 30 page thread like we did with Landry only to have nothing happen.

Is it out of the realm of possibility for Kohl to say "Let Ramon and Joe play on last game in DC that I can personally attend and I'll decide for good after I watch them once more"

...or to find out Hammy does a Gadz for Boozer swap instead

[emunney]

Any scenario that doesn't include the Senator stepping onto the court himself and dominating has to be considered at least in the realm of possibility.

[Shoot it FatBoy]

It would be funny if we got a 30 page thread like we did with Landry only to have nothing happen.

Is it out of the realm of possibility for Kohl to say "Let Ramon and Joe play on last game in DC that I can personally attend and I'll decide for good after I watch them once more"

Under that assumption it looks like the trade is a go. There is no way Kohl can like what he sees so far.

[RAtheMONsession]

First off I would like to say... I need a new screen name

But, I want this trade to happen. Mostly for the reasons already mentioned. Sessions is gone after this season. Harris put us in such bad cap shape that we are stuck with Gadzuric, Redd and Jefferson (I do want to keep both until contracts are expired now that we have them though.)

So, with being forced to hold on to some big contracts, we cannot let our RFA's just go for free. Sessions right now is nothing more than a backup PG for us. Conley would do exactly that, and maybe a little more. Alexander has 0 value for us THIS SEASON. So this season, the trade would put us either the same or ahead by a very little bit.

As for next season and beyond... It is Alexander or Conley. It is a project for project swap. At PG we have Ridnour. At SF Jefferson and Mbah a Moute. That alone shows we have a much bigger need at PG in the future than SF. Then who has more potential for the future? Once again, nod goes to Conley.

I really do not understand why people aren't for doing this trade. It is not a Sessions and Alexander long term for Conley long term. It is Alexander only.

[trwi7]

Wait, Harris stuck us with Jefferson?

[smauss]

I think small market teams to get beyond mediocre (41 wins plus or minus 4 or 5), especially to get into the plus 50 range need either to 1) be innovators in style of play or 2) take some personnel risks which pay off. Relating "2" to the Bucks, perhaps the acquisition of Conley makes it more possible to get Oden (I think his contract in his third year is at the option of the club). The Bucks with Conley create for Oden a place with his long-time buddy (and skill enabler), not far from their mutual hometown and thus improved and simplified access for the dad/agent. Now the Bucks would need to give Portland something for a sign and deal of Oden, I suppose, as I doubt if Portland would just let him walk (not picking up the option).

The point being the Bucks could become a elite team with both Conley and Oden clicking as they did from junior high through one year of college. Both would fit well with the fellow Hoosier Skiles and his prefered style on offense and defense (another Indiana All-Star, like those two).

Just really pulling this out of the anal cavity in an attempt to understand why Conley (and assuming the GM is building for a more than mediocre team).

epi, really good post. A well thought out, creative with enough soundness to make it plausible. I never gave that angle a thought. Best yet, the word "sucks" wasn't even used.

Best post on this thread since the Parker/Conley comparison IMHO.

[Shoot it FatBoy]

Was Kohl at the game tonight? That 5 minutes JA played early in the first quarter after how many games of not seeing the court seems a bit fishy.

[RAtheMONsession]

Wait, Harris stuck us with Jefferson?

No, Harris stuck us with things much worse than Jefferson. Wasted cap space in Simmons and a soft PF in Yi.

To get rid of Simmons, Hammonds did what he had to and got Jefferson. If it werent for Harris the Bucks would not be stuck with 2 15+ million dollar/year contracts in Redd and Jefferson.

You just love trying to make new members look like idiots dont you.

[Jez2983]

Wait, Harris stuck us with Jefferson?

No, Harris stuck us with things much worse than Jefferson. Wasted cap space in Simmons and a soft PF in Yi.

To get rid of Simmons, Hammonds did what he had to and got Jefferson. If it werent for Harris the Bucks would not be stuck with 2 15+ million dollar/year contracts in Redd and Jefferson.

You just love trying to make new members look like idiots dont you.

Firstly, chill out MON. You kinda did word that sentence pretty poorly - it kinda implies Harris is responsible for all those players, and then you say you want to keep 'both' players after naming 3 people. I assume you mean Redd and RJ (as no-one wants Gadz!) but you can't have a go at someone when you don't write clearly. It also takes people pointing out errors in other's posts that stops us ending up like the Raptors board, who believe Kobe Bryant currently holds the NBA scoring record

Secondly, I agree with most of what you said. Except we'd be a lot ahead - Alexander has a long way further to go than Conley. Conley at least showed himself capable of starting, but Alexander ain't close. It's a bummer to lose Sessions but you're right, he's likely gone end of season anyway.

I don't know if this has been mentioned elsewhere, but could this indicate we're trying to keep CV in the offseason???

[aboveAverage]

Yeah, Alexander playing tonight was suspect. Maybe trying to showcase him a little?

[drew881]

Was Kohl at the game tonight? That 5 minutes JA played early in the first quarter after how many games of not seeing the court seems a bit fishy.

Charlie Bell was out...I'm sure the rotations have to be different to account for this.

[RAtheMONsession]

Wait, Harris stuck us with Jefferson?

No, Harris stuck us with things much worse than Jefferson. Wasted cap space in Simmons and a soft PF in Yi.

To get rid of Simmons, Hammonds did what he had to and got Jefferson. If it werent for Harris the Bucks would not be stuck with 2 15+ million dollar/year contracts in Redd and Jefferson.

You just love trying to make new members look like idiots dont you.

Firstly, chill out MON. You kinda did word that sentence pretty poorly - it kinda implies Harris is responsible for all those players, and then you say you want to keep 'both' players after naming 3 people. I assume you mean Redd and RJ (as no-one wants Gadz!) but you can't have a go at someone when you don't write clearly. It also takes people pointing out errors in other's posts that stops us ending up like the Raptors board, who believe Kobe Bryant currently holds the NBA scoring record

Secondly, I agree with most of what you said. Except we'd be a lot ahead - Alexander has a long way further to go than Conley. Conley at least showed himself capable of starting, but Alexander ain't close. It's a bummer to lose Sessions but you're right, he's likely gone end of season anyway.

I don't know if this has been mentioned elsewhere, but could this indicate we're trying to keep CV in the offseason???

Youre right. I did word it poorly. And yes I am talking about Redd and Jefferson. I hate trades that send the best player for two mediocre players (RJ trade). Gadzuric, I cannot wait until he is gone obviously.

As for Villanueva, he will be traded by the deadline. Probably not as soon as Sessions, but he will not be a part of this team after the all star break.

[Jez2983]

I'd love Gadz and CV to go, the problem is I don't know how we're gonna get it done. I think the Landry trade was the best one to get rid of CV and now that's gone. It's always so hard to tell with CV but he has been consistent lately - is he an asset now?

Don't sweat the wording, either - I suppose it's trying to write as fast as you think and your points were valid