ImageImage

1/12/2009 Woelfel: Conley deal waiting for Herb (poll added)

Moderators: MickeyDavis, paulpressey25

Are you in favor of the proposed trade (Conley for Sessions/JA)?

YES
127
49%
NO
133
51%
 
Total votes: 260

GrandAdmiralDan
RealGM
Posts: 15,168
And1: 1,458
Joined: Jul 24, 2004
Location: New Berlin, WI (Milwaukee)
Contact:
     

Re: 1/12: Woelfel: Conley deal waiting for Herb (poll added) 

Post#681 » by GrandAdmiralDan » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:04 am

power4wardjinx wrote:
GrandAdmiralDan wrote:
And you are referring to Jeff Weltman, not Wetland :lol: For those that aren't aware (I think YOU are, but am not sure) he is Hammond's Assistant GM here.


oops. Thanks for correcting that, GAD. That was an honest mistake -- wasn't trying to make a stupid joke out his name. I haven't been able to keep that in my head (unlike the spelling of Szczerbiak, for example). I used to know a guy name Wentlend, and I'm pretty sure that's what trips me up.


No problem. I figured it was something like that.
Similar to how there were a number of Bucks fans who kept calling Larry Harris "Lenny" Harris from time to time, because of the former Brewer.
97-98
Nick Van Exel (LAL) on defending the Stockton-Malone pick-and-roll: "Yeah,
I got a way to defend it. Bring a bat to the game and kill one of them."
User avatar
power4wardjinx
Pro Prospect
Posts: 955
And1: 0
Joined: May 07, 2008
Location: Milwaukee
Contact:

Re: 1/12: Woelfel: Conley deal waiting for Herb (poll added) 

Post#682 » by power4wardjinx » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:18 am

GrandAdmiralDan wrote: I think if we had stuck to our guns, ultimately OKC would have accepted Damon Jones instead of Joe Smith. I just don't see how it mattered so much to them as compared to how much it would have mattered to the Bucks to have Joe Smith instead of Damon Jones.


OK City didn't want another little guard. That was the whole point of trading Ridnour. They had drafted Westbrook, had Watson and they didn't want one back for what they were shedding. You see how they stockpile big men and just signed another one in Krstic. Also, Smith asked to be traded out of milwaukee in 2007 after the Bucks acquired Charlie V. He didn't want to come back here and I doubt Hammond would demand a player back who didn't want to come back, especially a respected veteran; his value would have been diminished from the get go.
"Power forward ... again, that's something we'll probably have to address." - Larry Costello, Don Nelson, George Karl, Scott Skiles.
http://community.sportsbubbler.com/blog ... fault.aspx
User avatar
Sigra
RealGM
Posts: 15,473
And1: 1,511
Joined: Sep 08, 2005
Location: Aug 02, 2002
     

Re: 1/12: Woelfel: Conley deal waiting for Herb (poll added) 

Post#683 » by Sigra » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:13 am

AussieBuck wrote:Just a thought, is Darko Serbian? If so would he have a problem playing with Bogut or vice versa?


Darko is Serbian but I don't think that would be problem at all. Actually, It is posible that he and Andrew would become best friends. Serbia was in war with Croatia but that was long time ago. Since then many Serbians played with many Croatians and have been great friends (Radja-Bodiroga for example). There in USA Darko and Bogut would be friends trust me.
User avatar
AussieBuck
RealGM
Posts: 42,388
And1: 20,928
Joined: May 10, 2006
Location: Bucks in 7?
 

Re: 1/12: Woelfel: Conley deal waiting for Herb (poll added) 

Post#684 » by AussieBuck » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:43 am

Sigra wrote:
AussieBuck wrote:Just a thought, is Darko Serbian? If so would he have a problem playing with Bogut or vice versa?


Darko is Serbian but I don't think that would be problem at all. Actually, It is posible that he and Andrew would become best friends. Serbia was in war with Croatia but that was long time ago. Since then many Serbians played with many Croatians and have been great friends (Radja-Bodiroga for example). There in USA Darko and Bogut would be friends trust me.

I'm not doubting you at all, I just remember a season or two ago reading about a Serb who didn't want to play with Croats I just don't remember who the guy was but I know it was in the NBA.
emunney wrote:
We need a man shaped like a chicken nugget with the shot selection of a 21st birthday party.


GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:
if you combined jabari parker, royal ivey, a shrimp and a ball sack youd have javon carter
User avatar
MILILL
Sophomore
Posts: 140
And1: 0
Joined: Apr 17, 2008
Location: Only Albanian on RealGM.

Re: 1/12: Woelfel: Conley deal waiting for Herb (poll added) 

Post#685 » by MILILL » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:59 pm

The cultural differences between a Serb and Croat are heavily based upon the differences in religion - Catholic vs. Serbian Orthodox and the premise behind many Balkan wars (except for Albanians which Serbs hated all Catholic and Muslim Albanians). Many, especially in Bosnia, inter-married because the cultural differences were so subtle and during the communist 70's, religion wasn't a factor in being a communist JUGOVIC - of which even the minorities aspired to be. Language and a new collective identity during that time helped exemplify the commonalities - which are many - that exist amongst the Slavs of the former Yugoslavia. This also included Muslim Bosnians as well.

Would Bogut and Darko be friends? Well, they speak the same language, they probably eat the same ethnic food. I guess if politics don't come into play, I say yes. However, Croatians have a tendancy to be more accepting of ethnic diversity so I would suspect Bogut wouldn't be the one starting arguments.

As for the trade itself, I'd do this: Sessions/CV/Gadzuric for Darko and Conley. The Bucks can further dump salary by trading Malik Allen in that same deal but they would have that roster spot unfilled. I'd rather have Darko than Gadz on the team and has a year less on his contract.
User avatar
LUKE23
RealGM
Posts: 72,801
And1: 7,051
Joined: May 26, 2005
Location: Stunville
       

Re: 1/12: Woelfel: Conley deal waiting for Herb (poll added) 

Post#686 » by LUKE23 » Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:15 pm

So if the voting for the dunk contest ends today, and the results are released tomorrow, is it safe to say that if we don't see this trade happen by Friday, then it's likely not going to happen?
User avatar
europa
RealGM
Posts: 44,919
And1: 471
Joined: Jun 25, 2005
Location: Right Behind You

Re: 1/12: Woelfel: Conley deal waiting for Herb (poll added) 

Post#687 » by europa » Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:40 pm

GrandAdmiralDan wrote:Yes, the "more" is the only thing at play here. It is Sessions/Alexander for Conley. The plus is what is at stake, and I imagine (this part is still a guess) that we are making a case that the financial/marketing bonus of Alexander being in the dunk contest should allow us to come out of this deal in more favorable financial terms than if he doesn't get in, as in Gadz for Darko, or cash, etc.

It has nothing to do with Kohl being unwilling to part with Alexander if he makes it into the dunk contest, as far as I can tell. Someone involved in these negotiations seems to think that the dunk contest angle should impact some of the trimmings on this trade.


Thanks GAD. It makes more sense that Alexander's potential marketability impact is coming from the Bucks' end.

As to your point about trying to squeeze as much out of Memphis as possible and putting the trade at risk compared to the Mo situation, I think these are two extremely different sets of circumstances. As you know, Hammond decided that Mo simply had to go and he was going to get rid of him. So there was a sense of urgency to that trade because the market for Mo was dreadful and there was a chance (perhaps a strong one) nobody else was going to make the Bucks an offer for Mo and then the team would have been stuck with him. Hammond didn't want that and it's probably safe to say Skiles didn't want that either. So perhaps Hammond can be accused of blinking first, but it's a blink he had to make and as we've seen the trade has benefited the Bucks greatly.

With regard to Sessions, I'm not getting the sense Hammond and Skiles want to be rid of him and are doing everything they can to get rid of him. It appears to be more a sense that they aren't convinced he's the PG they want and given his RFA status, they might as well move him now. And if Conley is someone they are really high on, then the deal makes sense. But if the deal falls through, Sessions is young and talented with plenty of upside. Combine that with a very questionable market next summer (potential for a reduced salary cap; perhaps not as much heavy interested in RFAs etc.) and it isn't likely to paralyze the team if Sessions is still on the roster.

I'm also curious if Hammond wants anything to do with Darko given their history and whether Gadz/Darko is in play or if the Bucks are insisting upon the higher of the Grizzlies' draft pick or maybe even something else.
Nothing will not break me.
User avatar
paulpressey25
Senior Mod - Bucks
Senior Mod - Bucks
Posts: 62,948
And1: 30,319
Joined: Oct 27, 2002
     

Re: 1/12: Woelfel: Conley deal waiting for Herb (poll added) 

Post#688 » by paulpressey25 » Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:43 pm

GrandAdmiralDan wrote:It has nothing to do with Kohl being unwilling to part with Alexander if he makes it into the dunk contest, as far as I can tell. Someone involved in these negotiations seems to think that the dunk contest angle should impact some of the trimmings on this trade..


See I think that if this deal is truly being held up over something "extra" should Alexander make the dunk contest, that would have Kohl meddling written all over it.

During a poor cash flow time, the Bucks have been fronting the cost of all those electronic billboards around town and all the vote for Joe garbage. To me Kohl would be the guy to demand a higher payment if those efforts are a success. Unless for some reason Memphis is not willing to meet the Bucks asking price and they somehow feel they can sell the deal better to their fans if he makes the dunk contest.

Either way it seems totally inconsequential, which is why I'm questioning the validity of that angle. But if somehow this gets us a better deal, I won't complain. Vote Joe. 8-)
In depth discussions here - shorter stuff on Twitter

https://twitter.com/paulpressey25
User avatar
LUKE23
RealGM
Posts: 72,801
And1: 7,051
Joined: May 26, 2005
Location: Stunville
       

Re: 1/12: Woelfel: Conley deal waiting for Herb (poll added) 

Post#689 » by LUKE23 » Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:52 pm

I think I'd rather have the 2010 Lakers first (2010 draft is strong) than Darko, although I'd rather have a Gadz/Darko swap then just Sessions/JA for Conley straight.
User avatar
europa
RealGM
Posts: 44,919
And1: 471
Joined: Jun 25, 2005
Location: Right Behind You

Re: 1/12: Woelfel: Conley deal waiting for Herb (poll added) 

Post#690 » by europa » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:13 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:
GrandAdmiralDan wrote:It has nothing to do with Kohl being unwilling to part with Alexander if he makes it into the dunk contest, as far as I can tell. Someone involved in these negotiations seems to think that the dunk contest angle should impact some of the trimmings on this trade..


See I think that if this deal is truly being held up over something "extra" should Alexander make the dunk contest, that would have Kohl meddling written all over it.


I'm not sure I agree that he's meddling and something we all have to be up in arms about. Kohl signed off on a much greater financial risk when he agreed to trade Yi. He signed off on a much greater fan favorite when he agreed to trade Mo. I don't see him "meddling" here if he's willing to let those two trades go through. If he does believe Alexander would have more market value if he's in the dunk contest, I'm thinking Hammond may agree with him. And frankly, it's not the most outrageous argument to make. Not saying I totally agree with it, but the Bucks are giving up the best player currently in the trade so I don't think it's out of the question they want to sweeten the deal a little more and are hoping to use Alexander's dunk status as a means to do so.
Nothing will not break me.
User avatar
ReasonablySober
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 108,800
And1: 42,877
Joined: Dec 02, 2001
Location: Cheap dinner. Watch basketball. Bone down.
Contact:

Re: 1/12: Woelfel: Conley deal waiting for Herb (poll added) 

Post#691 » by ReasonablySober » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:28 pm

If this deal falls through because of JA and the **** dunk contest, that screams of an owner that's out of touch with what it takes to build a successful team. How do you explain that to Hammond and Skiles, two guys who are simply trying to build a winner.
User avatar
LUKE23
RealGM
Posts: 72,801
And1: 7,051
Joined: May 26, 2005
Location: Stunville
       

Re: 1/12: Woelfel: Conley deal waiting for Herb (poll added) 

Post#692 » by LUKE23 » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:30 pm

DrugBust wrote:If this deal falls through because of JA and the **** dunk contest, that screams of an owner that's out of touch with what it takes to build a successful team. How do you explain that to Hammond and Skiles, two guys who are simply trying to build a winner.


I would think they are waiting on the dunk contest results to try and add more value to the trade on the Bucks end, not waiting to see if he's in it and nixing the trade if he is. At least that is the way I read it.
LISTEN2JAZZ
RealGM
Posts: 13,298
And1: 201
Joined: Feb 21, 2005
Location: Madison
 

Re: 1/12: Woelfel: Conley deal waiting for Herb (poll added) 

Post#693 » by LISTEN2JAZZ » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:31 pm

How many ticket sales do you think the dunk contest is worth? Certainly more than zero and less than a sell-out. There are a lot of casual fans who watch the dunk contest, but not normal games. I could never in a million years get my friends to come over for a regular season Bucks game, but it's always easy to throw something together for all-star Saturday night. If he impresses with some jaw dropping dunks, those casual fans could be fooled into buying tickets to a Bucks game. But how many? 1,000 extra tickets sold? 10,000 over the course of the season?
User avatar
ReasonablySober
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 108,800
And1: 42,877
Joined: Dec 02, 2001
Location: Cheap dinner. Watch basketball. Bone down.
Contact:

Re: 1/12: Woelfel: Conley deal waiting for Herb (poll added) 

Post#694 » by ReasonablySober » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:41 pm

What happens if JA makes the contest, Milwaukee asks for a pick and/or cash and Memphis tells Milwaukee to go screw themselves?

Are we really holding this thing up over the god damn dunk contest?
msiris
RealGM
Posts: 11,057
And1: 2,311
Joined: Jul 25, 2005
Location: Central Wisconsin

Re: 1/12: Woelfel: Conley deal waiting for Herb (poll added) 

Post#695 » by msiris » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:42 pm

adamcz wrote:How many ticket sales do you think the dunk contest is worth? Certainly more than zero and less than a sell-out. There are a lot of casual fans who watch the dunk contest, but not normal games. I could never in a million years get my friends to come over for a regular season Bucks game, but it's always easy to throw something together for all-star Saturday night. If he impresses with some jaw dropping dunks, those casual fans could be fooled into buying tickets to a Bucks game. But how many? 1,000 extra tickets sold? 10,000 over the course of the season?
And that would be the stupid fans that do so, considering he does not play that much. When is the voting done?
Ride the tank
User avatar
LUKE23
RealGM
Posts: 72,801
And1: 7,051
Joined: May 26, 2005
Location: Stunville
       

Re: 1/12: Woelfel: Conley deal waiting for Herb (poll added) 

Post#696 » by LUKE23 » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:44 pm

DrugBust wrote:What happens if JA makes the contest, Milwaukee asks for a pick and/or cash and Memphis tells Milwaukee to go screw themselves?

Are we really holding this thing up over the god damn dunk contest?


I doubt they are holding it up and then HOPING they get more because of it, my guess is it's already understood that the deal would change somehow if JA made it in.

I don't think Hammond is sitting there going, "oh, we need to wait for the dunk contest results, then Memphis will definitely offer more". I don't view Hammond as a moron.

If the trade is being held up, it's being held up for a reason, not on blind faith. Again, just my guess.
LISTEN2JAZZ
RealGM
Posts: 13,298
And1: 201
Joined: Feb 21, 2005
Location: Madison
 

Re: 1/12: Woelfel: Conley deal waiting for Herb (poll added) 

Post#697 » by LISTEN2JAZZ » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:54 pm

If it were true that there was an agreed upon ammendment given different voting results, can you imagine what Bucks and Grizzlies headquarters must look like right now? Everyone employee from top to bottom furiously logging in to proxy servers trying to cast as many votes as possible to save their team a million bucks or a draft pick.
GrandAdmiralDan
RealGM
Posts: 15,168
And1: 1,458
Joined: Jul 24, 2004
Location: New Berlin, WI (Milwaukee)
Contact:
     

Re: 1/12: Woelfel: Conley deal waiting for Herb (poll added) 

Post#698 » by GrandAdmiralDan » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:15 pm

adamcz wrote:If it were true that there was an agreed upon ammendment given different voting results, can you imagine what Bucks and Grizzlies headquarters must look like right now? Everyone employee from top to bottom furiously logging in to proxy servers trying to cast as many votes as possible to save their team a million bucks or a draft pick.


:rofl:

Certainly if you or I were in any significant position with either franchise, that would indeed be what would be happening right now :)

That being said, regardless of what this "extra" stuff is, I think we need to do whatever we can practically do to help the Bucks obtain it. Vote Joe!
:nod:
97-98

Nick Van Exel (LAL) on defending the Stockton-Malone pick-and-roll: "Yeah,

I got a way to defend it. Bring a bat to the game and kill one of them."
Big Mokeski
Sophomore
Posts: 117
And1: 0
Joined: Mar 17, 2004

Re: 1/12: Woelfel: Conley deal waiting for Herb (poll added) 

Post#699 » by Big Mokeski » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:18 pm

I can understand the reasoning here, and see at least one benefit. Kohl and the folks in marketing might be concerned, after Yi, about the long-term costs to once again trading away a young, relatively recently drafted player after everyone in the organization has worked to sell fans and the community on them. At some point, we have to see this is not just a team but as a product to market, and continual turnover makes a product more difficult to market. And yes, I realize, that nothing increases ticket sales like more wins, but my guess is no one in this deal thinks this is either a win-now move or one that's guaranteed to work in the long term. If this is Kohl pushing this, it seems perfectly reasonable to me. As the poll and the 40+ page thread indicates, this isn't a slam-dunk deal.

One benefit is that if we're viewed as the team that walks away from this, that sets the value of our players as more than Conley. It's always good after a failed negotiation to be seen as the one who walked away.
GrandAdmiralDan
RealGM
Posts: 15,168
And1: 1,458
Joined: Jul 24, 2004
Location: New Berlin, WI (Milwaukee)
Contact:
     

Re: 1/12: Woelfel: Conley deal waiting for Herb (poll added) 

Post#700 » by GrandAdmiralDan » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:19 pm

BTW (and I'm channelling PP25's tendency for conspiratorial paranoia here) wouldn't it be funny if the very reliable sources this came from were being manipulated in some way by the Bucks/Kohl into putting this info out there, just as a convoluted way to get Joe more votes for the dunk contest, and that there never was going to be any such trade? :)
97-98

Nick Van Exel (LAL) on defending the Stockton-Malone pick-and-roll: "Yeah,

I got a way to defend it. Bring a bat to the game and kill one of them."

Return to Milwaukee Bucks