McHale: Its Harder for Rookie Big Men

[shrink]

McHale was on KFAN at noon, and said a couple things that I'd never considered.

One was that he thinks the transition to the NBA is far harder for rookie big men than for guards or small forwards. He said that the game doesn't change that much for the smaller players, and you're still being guarded by a 6' 3" player. For the big men, they suddenly are facing multiple guys who are as big or bigger than they are, and are as athletic, or even mroe athletic.

My guess is that this was about Love getting blocked. However, he went on to say that Love is one of the best young rebounders he's ever seen, and sometimes on the bench, they just look at each other and say, "How the %$^^%$ did he get that board?!"

[wolves_fan_82au]

yeh Love has impressed me with hes rebounding,i had no idea he would be so good so quick

i also didnt think he would have so many 10 plus ppg

[mandurugo]

McHale seems to be forgetting that even if you're still being guarded by a 6'3" guy, it's the strongest and fastest 6'3" guy you've ever played against. And behind him are the biggest, fastest and strongest big men you've ever tried to drive against. Plus, you probably aren't being guarded by a 6'3" guy anymore. Going to the NBA is tough for every position, but I would think it would be hardest for point guards who suddenly have dramatically less time to set up plays and run the offense. Beyond that it probably depends on the individuals style of play more than his position.

[Devilzsidewalk]

you can't get physical with a perimeter player, plus they get to work off screens. Big man work is all mano a mano. Pretty rare for a bigman to have an immediate scoring impact unless you're a physical freak like Amare, but perimeter guys do it all the time.

even the best scoring bigmen in the NBA had troubles at the start because you can't jump right in and play 40 minutes and score like perimeter guys
rookie seasons for elite bigs:

Bosh 11.5 ppg
yao 13.5 ppg
Amare 13.5
Boozer 10.0
Howard 12.0

perimeter guys:
Wade 16.2
Melo 21.0
Butler 15.4
Pierce 16.5
Vince 18.3

if you're a talented wing, you can jump right in and play 35 mpg without worrying about foul trouble because perimeter defense is soft and if your man beats you, it's up to the bigmen to clean up after you. If you're a big man you're playing under 30 mpg most of the time because you're fouling everything in sight and you have to take care of your man on your own a lot, plus clean up after that guards and run out on picks.

[Chipotle_GM]

you can't get physical with a perimeter player, plus they get to work off screens. Big man work is all mano a mano. Pretty rare for a bigman to have an immediate scoring impact unless you're a physical freak like Amare, but perimeter guys do it all the time.

even the best scoring bigmen in the NBA had troubles at the start because you can't jump right in and play 40 minutes and score like perimeter guys
rookie seasons for elite bigs:

Bosh 11.5 ppg
yao 13.5 ppg
Amare 13.5
Boozer 10.0
Howard 12.0

perimeter guys:
Wade 16.2
Melo 21.0
Butler 15.4
Pierce 16.5
Vince 18.3

if you're a talented wing, you can jump right in and play 35 mpg without worrying about foul trouble because perimeter defense is soft and if your man beats you, it's up to the bigmen to clean up after you. If you're a big man you're playing under 30 mpg most of the time because you're fouling everything in sight and you have to take care of your man on your own a lot, plus clean up after that guards and run out on picks.

POST OF THE YEAR.

[TDWOLVESFAN]

I agree in total with Devilzsidewalk!

Not only is there the normal jostling for positon but the elbows fly higher and harder in the NBA. How many times have we seen our forwards/centers walk away from a play rubbing their head or have the clock stopped for them for bloody noses etc. I know some of the time they are doing this to make a point to the refs. No matter, some of these guys have to get headaches or mild concussions during the games.

One thing that many people forget is that the forwards run the full length of the floor both on offense and defense many more times than the guards. In college these guys played 30-32 minutes per game being able to coast occassionally with the 35 sec clock. In the pros, with the 24 sec clock, those same minutes mean an additional 30-40 times up and down the court and at a faster pace.

[skorff26]

you can't get physical with a perimeter player, plus they get to work off screens. Big man work is all mano a mano. Pretty rare for a bigman to have an immediate scoring impact unless you're a physical freak like Amare, but perimeter guys do it all the time.

even the best scoring bigmen in the NBA had troubles at the start because you can't jump right in and play 40 minutes and score like perimeter guys
rookie seasons for elite bigs:

Bosh 11.5 ppg
yao 13.5 ppg
Amare 13.5
Boozer 10.0
Howard 12.0

perimeter guys:
Wade 16.2
Melo 21.0
Butler 15.4
Pierce 16.5
Vince 18.3

if you're a talented wing, you can jump right in and play 35 mpg without worrying about foul trouble because perimeter defense is soft and if your man beats you, it's up to the bigmen to clean up after you. If you're a big man you're playing under 30 mpg most of the time because you're fouling everything in sight and you have to take care of your man on your own a lot, plus clean up after that guards and run out on picks.

Your big man list is pretty misleading since a lot of those guys you listed weren't supposed to be stars right away...
-amare and howard were both drafted right out of HS and neither were expected to put up big points right away (KG only had 10.4 as a rookie out of HS as well)
-yao had to make a huge adjustment coming over here to play
-boozer was drafted in the 2nd round so he wasn't expected to have a large contribution
-bosh is the only one that doesn't have an excuse, and even then he was a college freshmen coming into the NBA, and he wasn't even 20 years old until December in his rookie year

While your perimeter guys all have more experience
-wade had 3 years of college ball
-melo had 1 year of college
-butler had 2 years
-pierce had 3 years
-carter had 3 years (I think)

You could have included a couple of big men that did adjust well to the NBA
Duncan 21.1, camby 14.8, gasol 17.6, shaq 23.4, brand 20.1

[big3_8_19_21]

yes, but the list is much longer for perimeter players making an impact right away than it is for big men.

OJ Mayo 19.7
Derrick Rose 16.7
Chris Paul 16.1
LeBron 20.9
Brandon Roy 16.8
Iverson 23.5
Steve Francis 18.0

[mandurugo]

As has been pointed out, Devilsidewalk only used (cherry picked ) scoring averages, I don't think that is sufficient to prove the case. For example, Love is having no trouble getting rebounds, that part of his game has translated fine. Shouldn't these flying elbows have effected that part of his game as well? Perhaps players remain good at some aspects of their game but other parts are suffering as they meet higher level competition. Certainly their are plenty of counter-examples of perimeter scorers like Ammo, Dejuan Wagner, Shawn Respert who got to the pros and struggled.

Though perhaps it is true that bigs have to change their position more often than guards and wing players, which would add another layer of difficulty. Certainly to go back to Love, he is no longer able to play center, which has been his natural position for the last couple of years. Another question I have is if the preponderance of man defense is an advantage for point guards making the jump, the fact that the defense in the pros is more consistent from team to team? I still think they have the hardest jump though. As for players like Mayo, in college the average skills and athleticism of the guy he was beating off the dribble and the shot blocker he was driving against could hardly compare to going up against a Mike Miller followed by Al Jefferson... and some nights he might even go up against tougher D than that!

[Zeitgeister]

yes, but the list is much longer for perimeter players making an impact right away than it is for big men.

OJ Mayo 19.7
Derrick Rose 16.7
Chris Paul 16.1
LeBron 20.9
Brandon Roy 16.8
Iverson 23.5
Steve Francis 18.0

I think that's a combination of a bunch of things. Mainly because its simply harder to find good talented big men, often times big men are chosen high in the draft simply because they have good size, even though their skill set isn't polished. When guards are chosen high in the draft, its typically because they have the talent and skill to justify the position in which they were picked. Not to mention you probably have a larger sample size of perimeter players to choose from compared to post players.

[shrink]

Greg Oden should be the poster child here. He looks horrible, getting lost, frustrated, and fouling everyone in sight despite jaw-dropping physical ability that's even better than the opposition.

[Devilzsidewalk]

you can't get physical with a perimeter player, plus they get to work off screens. Big man work is all mano a mano. Pretty rare for a bigman to have an immediate scoring impact unless you're a physical freak like Amare, but perimeter guys do it all the time.

even the best scoring bigmen in the NBA had troubles at the start because you can't jump right in and play 40 minutes and score like perimeter guys
rookie seasons for elite bigs:

Bosh 11.5 ppg
yao 13.5 ppg
Amare 13.5
Boozer 10.0
Howard 12.0

perimeter guys:
Wade 16.2
Melo 21.0
Butler 15.4
Pierce 16.5
Vince 18.3

if you're a talented wing, you can jump right in and play 35 mpg without worrying about foul trouble because perimeter defense is soft and if your man beats you, it's up to the bigmen to clean up after you. If you're a big man you're playing under 30 mpg most of the time because you're fouling everything in sight and you have to take care of your man on your own a lot, plus clean up after that guards and run out on picks.

Your big man list is pretty misleading since a lot of those guys you listed weren't supposed to be stars right away...
-amare and howard were both drafted right out of HS and neither were expected to put up big points right away (KG only had 10.4 as a rookie out of HS as well)
-yao had to make a huge adjustment coming over here to play
-boozer was drafted in the 2nd round so he wasn't expected to have a large contribution
-bosh is the only one that doesn't have an excuse, and even then he was a college freshmen coming into the NBA, and he wasn't even 20 years old until December in his rookie year

While your perimeter guys all have more experience
-wade had 3 years of college ball
-melo had 1 year of college
-butler had 2 years
-pierce had 3 years
-carter had 3 years (I think)

You could have included a couple of big men that did adjust well to the NBA
Duncan 21.1, camby 14.8, gasol 17.6, shaq 23.4, brand 20.1

but your list of bigmen is the most physically dominant center of all time by far and the best PF of all time, 3 college seniors, 1 junior, and 1 professional european player, 3 of them are #1 picks, 1 #2 and 1 #3 pick.

Wade/Melo/Butler/Pierce/Carter are a 2 #5 picks, #2 pick Freshman, and 2 #10 picks, None of them are best at their position at anytime in their career, much less of all time, and they all came into the NBA with less experience than the big men you mentioned.

My point is a valid one, usually if you're scoring big as a bigman, you're a stud and very experienced, but you can be a rookie perimeter guy and put up big scoring numbers when inexperienced, or even not that great a player. Look at Marbury, Glen Robinson, Jerry Stackhouse, Steve Francis....they were all scorers coming into the NBA as rookies. There's no way you can say working off of screens and shooting open threes and jumpers and running full momentum into somebody for free throws is the same as what a bigman has to go through.

[john2jer]

I gotta agree with Devilz.

[C.lupus]

Me too. I will say learning the point is difficult too, but for different reasons.