Wow is Glen Davis inefficient...

[BillessuR6]

You do understand that that is Leon`s role on the team. We have no inside game when second unit is in so we post up Powe. If we had anyone better he wouldn`t have to play this way and could shoot jumpers like baby every time...

[cisco]

It's amazing how many people hated on BBD, considering he is a big only in his 2nd year and everyone knows (or should know) most bigs take several years to develop their games. It is a testament to Big Baby that he is carving himself a spot in the rotation of a championship team only in his second year. Actually he did that as a rookie. Remember how many years it took Perk to get minutes? More good to come from BBD as he continues to develop.

[billfromBoston]

...there has been mass speculation about who will stick between Powe and Davis and whom is better long-term for this team...if you can't see how ridiculous this guy is in terms of decision making and overall ability you are delusional......

Haha. Wow. Way to write Big Baby off. Glen Davis is a lot better passer and decision maker than the black hole known as Leon Powe.

You do understand that was a factual quote at the time I made it right? Just because a player has a good game after the fact doesn't make the assessment of his body of work inaccurate.

Davis still hasn't turned the corner in the consistency dept. so acting like the past few games or weeks id indicative of anything other than those games and weeks is wishful thinking.

[billfromBoston]

And that is the reason Leon will not get minutes, he's a major black hole, he doesn't get any assists, he holds the ball too long, he doesn't make his inside shots. He has a role on the team, but it's limited.

Actually, is NBA rank in terms of finishing post plays is one of the highest at his postion...as far as passing goes, he has displayed a much more acute eye for when to pass out of the post and when to attack..considering this was one of his main areas the needed development I'll rate him based off the improvement and not the level.

Glen Davis can't shoot any better than Powe can pass...how about that one?

[billfromBoston]

It's amazing how many people hated on BBD, considering he is a big only in his 2nd year and everyone knows (or should know) most bigs take several years to develop their games. It is a testament to Big Baby that he is carving himself a spot in the rotation of a championship team only in his second year. Actually he did that as a rookie. Remember how many years it took Perk to get minutes? More good to come from BBD as he continues to develop.

....and everything you wrote their applies to Powe as well, who has played about the same amount of NBA minutes as Glen Davis and shown more overall in that time frame...

Davis is hot right now, so by all means every BBD fan-boy sound off...but player development is about much more than what-have-you-done-for-me-lately....Powe isn't finished contributing to this team or this debate...

[Kefa461]

It's about BBD/Powe.....it's about which one in which situation. Doc is coaching and the player has to be ready to produce. They both have their good and bad points and Doc has to use them in different games in different matchups.

[billfromBoston]

It's about BBD/Powe.....it's about which one in which situation. Doc is coaching and the player has to be ready to produce. They both have their good and bad points and Doc has to use them in different games in different matchups.

Absolutely agree...each player has had ups and downs and been used more when the other isn't playing well...up until 3-4 weeks ago it was Powe who won out a majority of the time...recently Davis has been playing better, but neither has been the slam dunk winner of the positon in the rotation...

They will both continue to get a chance to play and I expect Powe's game to improve in the coming weeks...

[sully00]

Davis is hot right now, so by all means every BBD fan-boy sound off...but player development is about much more than what-have-you-done-for-me-lately....Powe isn't finished contributing to this team or this debate...

You started the thread and have as big an agenda about this as anyone.

Anyway I don't think these two guys are locked in a competition, that is a "fanboy" way of looking at what is going on. They each bring two different skill sets and that is what has to be looked at. If you get a chance to listen to Max break some of this down it is worthwhile, assuming you can handle the mustard. He and Doc have both talked about how essentially Powe plays better with Garnett, as does everyone, but it hurts KG, a simliar thing happens with Perk were the paint gets so packed that it pushes KG out of the paint and Doc and everyone else wants the offense run through KG on the blocks.

That is why they have been using more of Scal and pushing Big Baby to take that jumper. If Baby can force teams to respect that jumper then it gets KG one on one on the blocks and opens the paint for everyone to attack the rim.

I am not a big fan of the duo of Baby and Powe on the floor but if Baby can continue to hit that shot as well as attack the offensive glass then he is going to open up the paint for Leon the same way he does for KG.

I like Leon a lot and think he is and will continue to be a very valuable piece, his ability to fight for long rebounds is amazing to watch and he can be explosive. But I think people want to pro rate his explosive production and it doesn't really work that way he is more of a big man version of Vinny Johnson or even Eddie House. If that match ups working ride it, if it isn't change it up because he presence on the floor doesn't help his teammates the same way others might. This about winning a championship not player development.

[billfromBoston]

Davis is hot right now, so by all means every BBD fan-boy sound off...but player development is about much more than what-have-you-done-for-me-lately....Powe isn't finished contributing to this team or this debate...

You started the thread and have as big an agenda about this as anyone.

Anyway I don't think these two guys are locked in a competition, that is a "fanboy" way of looking at what is going on. They each bring two different skill sets and that is what has to be looked at. If you get a chance to listen to Max break some of this down it is worthwhile, assuming you can handle the mustard. He and Doc have both talked about how essentially Powe plays better with Garnett, as does everyone, but it hurts KG, a simliar thing happens with Perk were the paint gets so packed that it pushes KG out of the paint and Doc and everyone else wants the offense run through KG on the blocks.

That is why they have been using more of Scal and pushing Big Baby to take that jumper. If Baby can force teams to respect that jumper then it gets KG one on one on the blocks and opens the paint for everyone to attack the rim.

I am not a big fan of the duo of Baby and Powe on the floor but if Baby can continue to hit that shot as well as attack the offensive glass then he is going to open up the paint for Leon the same way he does for KG.

I like Leon a lot and think he is and will continue to be a very valuable piece, his ability to fight for long rebounds is amazing to watch and he can be explosive. But I think people want to pro rate his explosive production and it doesn't really work that way he is more of a big man version of Vinny Johnson or even Eddie House. If that match ups working ride it, if it isn't change it up because he presence on the floor doesn't help his teammates the same way others might. This about winning a championship not player development.

Links to these Doc/Max discussions would be helpful...I plan on asking myself when I come up to Boston in March...

I don't see how Powe playing with KG hurts KG much however...KG plays with Perkins in the same capacity and the team willingly went to KG as the jump shooter because KG doesn't like to post up with the frequency they tried to force-feed him last year.

Regardless, player development is ALWAYS important, its just a matter of how the development fits into the total team concept.

I'm fine with what's going on right now...if Davis is doing his job effectively and Leon is not, then its Leon's job to improve and Davis' job to continue to perform while improving himself...

I hate these arguments because I don't "root" for either player...I support the player I believe has a higher probability of fulfilling his potential when the debate becomes whether or not one has to go...I originally thought that both could stay on in their current roles of C/PF as complementary pieces, but I have not seen the consistency out of Davis with the face-up shot or his rebounding and general decision-making to date.

I am always, always, always, re-evaluating the situation based off how things continue to progress, but I haven't seen Davis suddenly blossom into a substantially better player than he was before..he's played better, but he has to have far more games like the Orlando game to justify using him at center consitently.

The team NEEDS a face-up big who can hit that shot in order to open up the inside..Powe is already doing his job as a post up player, despite the recent slump...(remember those stats I showed you? Powe is still top-tier offensively while Davis ranks in the lowest category.)

Im open-minded, but I go with what's been established and adjust when their is substantial reason to...right now Glen Davis is merely showing a bit more promise, he hasn't arrived or done anything more consistently than before...

[sully00]

Max's comments were during the game last night. Doc's comments were in and interview last week maybe after the TOR game. He didn't say he "hurt" KG that is my take, he simply said that while he plays better with KG so does everyone, and that isn't always the most important thing.

While you are plenty perceptive, you clearly have a routing interest in Leon which is fine you just shouldn't mock other people for having one the other way. It is about the matchups on the floor more than either ones individual progress.

[PPAW4Life]

We will start seeing Leon work and display his jump shot soon.

[return2glory]

And that is the reason Leon will not get minutes, he's a major black hole, he doesn't get any assists, he holds the ball too long, he doesn't make his inside shots. He has a role on the team, but it's limited.

Actually, is NBA rank in terms of finishing post plays is one of the highest at his postion...as far as passing goes, he has displayed a much more acute eye for when to pass out of the post and when to attack..considering this was one of his main areas the needed development I'll rate him based off the improvement and not the level.

Glen Davis can't shoot any better than Powe can pass...how about that one?

When was the last time Leon Powe made anything outside of 15 feet? It's kinda funny how you can talk about BBD's weaknesses but when it comes to Powe you talk about his " skill set."

IMO, Leon Powe hasn't done much to improve his game. He gets the ball in the post, puts his head down, throws out an elbow and hopes his shot goes in or hopes he draws a foul. Leon has a hard time scoring against guys 6'10 or bigger. Until Leon can made a shot from 16-18 feet out, he will be the same player he was last year. That is the only way he is going to be able to keep the defenses honest, and take his game to another level.

[sully00]

I don't see how Powe playing with KG hurts KG much however...KG plays with Perkins in the same capacity and the team willingly went to KG as the jump shooter because KG doesn't like to post up with the frequency they tried to force-feed him last year.

It is a compound situation. Much like with Perkins it makes it difficult for KG to play in the paint, more so for the reason that it is usually in a second unit situation without the defensive attention that Paul and Ray will command. So it will at times leave Powe open or singled up on the block which can be good unless he is overmatched by size, which is not an issue with Perk, or KG is struggling with the jumper. Added to that is the man switch that has to occur at the other end, which is just another issue. It isn't a deficiency of Leon it is just the reality of the situation. Put Leon on the Magic or better yet the Rockets and he is killing people.

While being able to add a jump shot to his game obviously would help Leon he has more than that to contend with as far as expanding his game. He needs to add ball handling and passing elements, simply adding a catch and shoot 16 ft like PJ Brown doesn't completely change the situation. I also don't know how much Leon really has to change his game there is got to be 10 teams that could use 20+ mins a night of what he does right now, I just don't know that this team is the one, essentially because of the guy wearing #5 and the overall lack of height on the roster.

[SLCceltic]

The truth is that we only need one of them
Powe=Davis either could learn their role and take care of pairing problems w/ KG or any one else
right now they are competition to each other and have not been given a night in and night out role; we need to move one
I love em both though

If Cleveland werent so long we could use both, but eventually one will go due to $------do it now and we'll be able to get something solid in return while breaking up the logjam

[humblebum]

I also don't know how much Leon really has to change his game there is got to be 10 teams that could use 20+ mins a night of what he does right now, I just don't know that this team is the one, essentially because of the guy wearing #5 and the overall lack of height on the roster.

This is the question that I often ask when looking at Davis-Powe off the bench. The reality is that Doc believes that the third big (after KG and Perk) should be able to defend centers or power forwards (to take defensive pressure off of Garnett) and provide spacing on the offensive end. Those are the characteristics that Doc values off the bench a la the increased minutes for Davis-Scal. Powe has more potential to become a potent force off of the bench, but I doubt that he ever acquires that role in Boston.

The recent performance of Davis, however, does not prove ANYTHING, besides the fact that he has this type of ability. That is he can defend some of the biggest, most physical interior bigs while also showing a "respectable" jumpshot from 12-18 feet. By respectable I mean that the defense must respect that shot as he's proving on a much more consistent basis currently. And truly, it's not a surprise that his jumpshot is going down with greater regularity. Does anyone truly think that Doc would consistently give Davis the green light if he didn't think he had the ability to make that shot? And if your argument is that Davis gets those minutes and that role because there's no one else off the bench to fill that role, than why doesn't Perkins consistently have the green light?

And let's get real here billfromboston, if anyone is guilty of being a "fanboy" in this discussion than it's ludicrous for you to excuse yourself from that guilt. Other people on this site, besides yourself, watch the games and form analysis based on what they see and/or on the stats that they value. I've firmly planted myself in Davis' corner because I have seen a lot of things that he does on the court that I find valuable, the jumpers going down gets the headlines and attention, hence this thread being bumped, but I value his physical presence, hustle and solid defensive positioning much much more than the jumper that he's been hitting, though it's nice to watch go in because it clearly helps the team.

[GreenGrizz]

Did Doc use him properly? I thought Big Baby should be around the paint but he uses up his energy by going out and setting screens which is about one mile from the paint area. I am talking about someone near 300 pounds. He simply doesn't belong to that kind of job.

[sam_I_am]

I agree with Sully in his analysis of Powe and Davis. Powe is a PF and will backup Garnett. He is not the answer to our backup C problems. Davis is a back up center but his lack of size is not offset by a smooth perimeter game. He has a nice handle for a guy his size and passes well but he will always be 6-7.

Powe is the perfect backup to Garnett. He is a gritty second round pick talent who doesn't cost a lot of money and there is no drop in intensity and toughness when Garnett leaves. He doesn't have the talent to be a regular contributor but he is capable of having some big games. As soon as he demands more money though we will have to move on.

As far as showcasing Big Baby.....for what? He literally has no trade value unless you want a future second round pick. Whose team does he help? What need does he fill? What team needs another tweener with serious limitations? He is perfect for us but cannot be expected to bring anything back in a trade.

It is more likely that we are done showcasing Powe and that a trade is already in the works to explain Baby's increased minutes than that we are peddling him. I think Powe could help a lot of teams and will actually get a decent contract when his current one expires. Which means we should probably trade him before he hits free agency.

[billfromBoston]

Well, the team really isn't looking for anything substantial in a trade, they are just looking to get an aging veteran role player, such as Joe Smith - Joe Smith doesn't have much trade value either - no team will trade a top prospect for him or a 1st round pick, so making a trade is not as difficult as you make it out to be Sam.

OKC may have little interest in Glen Davis or Leon Powe, but they do need gritty frontcourt help and could use either player as they both fit the age range of the core.

[humblebum]

I agree that Smith shouldn't be impossible to acquire in trade but I really don't think Powe or Davis have any value to them, especially since both would need to be resigned. They already have Collison and Wilcox at PF. I see Tony Allen possibly having some value for them but that would leave the team awful thin at the 2-3 spot.