1/12/2009 Woelfel: Conley deal waiting for Herb (poll added)

[htr]

Has anyone mentioned a possible Hollins connection to this trade, maybe somehow putting it back on the front burner? Does anyone know if Hollins is a big Sessions fan? I could see this thing getting rekindled a bit with Hollins taking over in Memphis. Thoughts?

[paulpressey25]

Hey Press, what are the record thread length for us & the board in general or aren't they kept. Just curious.

Smauss, we've gone over 100 on a couple game threads in the past, usually the season opener. And there was a thread two years ago entitled "Sports Betting" that went well over 100 and stayed alive for almost a year.

The Toronto board's thread on the night CV was traded for TJ went something like 120 pages.

[ReasonablySober]

I don't think it's doing backwards, it's just signing a good player at the right contract. The Bucks are not good enough to worry about "fit", they need talent first.

This addresses something I thought about last night when Paul said that Mo clearly didn't fit this team.

Talent trumps fit when you're a bad team.

[MajorDad]

I've read about 5 pages of this thread. it appears the original trade is dead. kohl is meddling once more , and oh do i wish the bucks hadn't traded with Dallas to get traylor when we could have stayed where we were and drafted pierce instead. We're shopping players around , but kohl is worse than jerry jones in allowing his GM to accomplish anything. We might have still made the deal for Conley if he didn't totally suck in the last two games when memphis made him a starter to showcase his talents. All that did was get the memphis coach fired. Did i miss anything in the other 95 pages?

i saw a post by Luke that peeked my interest on page 101 or 100. he made the point that Bogut, redd ,Ridnour and jefferson are good/great players, but we need somebody better to be able to win a play-off series. I totally agree with that opinion. These guys are great players. but they are complimentary ones. What the bucks lack is a true superstar that will get the calls and will be able step up his game in a 7 game series.

Luke made another great point about about how the bucks can improve their team. No superstar FA is going to sign with the Bucks unless they way overbid the competition. and the Bucks are not a team that would be willing to go over the luxury tax threshold to do something like that. The bucks are going to have to find that great player either through the draft or via a trade.

i would have loved for the bucks to have made the type of trade the Clippers made to obtain Camby. But you need financial flexibility to make something like that happen. On the plus side, that trade paved the way for future one sided trades (salary dumping) to become more common place. maybe the bucks will be able to make a trade like that in the future.

CV is a great player. but he's a better 6th man than a starting PF. tthere's nothing wrong with that. Ginobli is a great player off the bench. ben gordon was a better player for the bulls when he came off the bench. the Bucks have a long history of having great 6th men.

I will also agree with luke that the current cast is capable of winning 40-45 games every year. But in doing so, it will never be able to land a premium draft pick to take the team to the next level. Winning 40 games every year will continue to net us guys like YI and joe. they are good players, but not ones to build a franchise around. Think about it. Paul is a cornerstone player. D Williams is a corner player. Bogut is a good center, but no a cornerstone. I would hate to be the team that drafted Yi and Joe thinking they would be cornerstone players to build around. OOOPS , that was the Bucks.

I agree with Luke on almost everything he said. but i know we have differing viewpoints of how to get to the next level. In the past, my plan was to keep tanking until we got lucky and landed a corner stone player in the draft. The bucks tried that for two years, but didn't get lucky. I realize the bucks can't continue to tank in hopes of getting lucky. So, offer a new plan.

My new plan is to trade our draft picks. When the draft comes, if we have a top 5 pick, keep it and draft wisely and get that cornerstone player. if we don't believe a cornerstone player wil be available, trade that pick to some other team for a future draft pick. and then fill the hole with a very cheap free agent. while I' m not a big lue fan, he is bettter this year than any low first round point guard would be. rather than drafting a guy like joe Alexander, i would have traded that pick for a future pick and signed a FA small forward to fill his position. let Joe be a project for some other team and in three years , if the Bucks really like him, sign him then.

Don't give bench players anything more than a 1 year contract unless they are really good.

The premise of my plan is to stop drafting mediocre players and projects. Fill your bench with cheap/old guys like juwan howard. Who is making a better contribution this year ? howard or joe? I'm not talking about next year. I'm talking this year. There will be 20 Joe alexanders in next year's draft if you really ike Joe for his future potential. trade your draft pick for future ones until you can draft a premium cornerstone player. be willing to swap picks lottery unprotected.

if a guy like haislip is the best player you can draft, then you need to trade that pick for a future one. if joe Alexander is the best you can get, you need to trade that pic k for a future one. if yi is the best player you can get, you need to trade that pick. if bogut is the best you can get, you get the idea.


the bucks need financial flexibility. But more importantly, they need to use their first round picks to draft cornerstone players, not complimentary role bench players. there were over 30 FA who could do for the bucks what joe is doing. and there will be 30 more next year. the Bucks should have been able to assess joe's ceiling on draft night. if all he projected out to be is a nice 8th man coming off the bench, like brian Cardinal or Skinner, then they should never have drafted him and signed brian cardinal or skinner or juwan howard instead.


IN other words , stop using your first round picks to draft future bench players and projects. make your first round picks count. Draft corenerstone players. use your second round picks to take chances on projects.

[LUKE23]

This addresses something I thought about last night when Paul said that Mo clearly didn't fit this team.

Talent trumps fit when you're a bad team.

It trumps it until you have a superstar. Amassing "fit" when you cannot contend makes little to no sense. Contract also needs to be taken into account, that is the one thing that doesn't make me fret over the Mo trade anymore, if he and Ridnour had the same contracts I'd probably be a lot more upset.

[jerrod]

I don't think it's doing backwards, it's just signing a good player at the right contract. The Bucks are not good enough to worry about "fit", they need talent first.

This addresses something I thought about last night when Paul said that Mo clearly didn't fit this team.

Talent trumps fit when you're a bad team.

let me ask you this, what happens if lebron's campaigning gets mo into the all star game over redd.

does the world explode? i'm a little worried

[ReasonablySober]

I'm not upset over the deal anymore, either. With Mo we win maybe three more games at this point (Ridnour was awful in November and with Mo's scoring we probably pull out a couple of those close wins) but in the end it doesn't matter as we're still a first round door-mat if we even make the playoffs. The most disturbing part of the deal was it was Mo who was dealt and not Redd.

[LUKE23]

I'd agree that Mo at half Redd's salary is probably more valuable if you're looking at salary vs. production.

[aaprigs311]

103 pages.. ?!

[Ayt]

Good points by Ayt, I still liked him better when he was a caveman, though.

I definitely need a new avy.

[Ayt]

And I think the Bucks will be able to address their backup C spot without too much difficulty in the years to come.

What in the world gives you that indication?

Because I'm not as big on Lopez - despite the fact he's been better thus far than I anticipated - as some in this thread. Ayt posted some stats and used them as evidence that Lopez will be a player the Bucks will regret missing out on for years. I would counter by saying the Nets have such dismal frontcourt talent that someone has to put up numbers at the center position on that team and that someone right now is Brook Lopez.

Allow me to post some stats for a starting center in the NBA:

9.7 points per game
11.2 rebounds per game

Not bad, huh? Whose stats were those?

Dan Gadzuric in the final month of Terry Porter's last season.

Did Gadz go on to greatness? Of course not. He put up those numbers because he was given minutes because somebody had to get them in the frontcourt for the Bucks that year and he was it. Now I'm not saying Lopez will be another Gadz. He's more talented. But numbers alone don't always tell the story with players. Just as I swore up and down after that season that the numbers didn't tell the whole story with Gadz, I'm not sure the numbers now are telling us that Brook Lopez is someone who the Bucks will end up kicking themselves for years for passing on. I think if Hammond has any skills whatsoever as a GM, he'll find a solid backup for Bogut and the Bucks will be fine there. I'm not as worried about that as others here seem to be.

So Lopez doing what he's doing at age 20 on a team fighting for one of the final playoff spots is similar to Gadz putting up the number you posted in 11 games on a team in tank mode at the end of the season at the age of 26?

Lets conveniently not compare Lopez to the 20 year old center we drafted a few years ago that played on a team that fought for a final playoff spot. Lopez is definitely much more comparable to 26 year old garbage time Gadz than same age Bogut.

[europa]

So Lopez doing what he's doing at age 20 on a team fighting for one of the final playoff spots is similar to Gadz putting up the number you posted in 11 games on a team in tank mode at the end of the season at the age of 26?

Lets conveniently not compare Lopez to the 20 year old center we drafted a few years ago that played on a team that fought for a final playoff spot. Lopez is definitely much more comparable to 26 year old garbage time Gadz than same age Bogut.

My point is Ayt, stats don't tell the whole story. As I said, Lopez is better than Gadz. I'm not comparing the two in terms of talent. I'm saying that on the Nets, Lopez has to get numbers because their other centers are truly awful. I'm not sure his numbers make him a great player. Perhaps they do and if he becomes a great player I'll be here saying I was wrong just like I'm here now saying I was wrong about how good he'd be thus far.

But even though he's been better than I anticipated, I don't believe he's a mega-star who the Bucks are going to be kicking themselves for passing on for the next several years. I think a reliable backup center can be found without much difficulty and I believe a player of Lopez's ability will be found in subsequent drafts - even if the Bucks don't have a lottery pick. The Lakers got Marc Gasol with the 48th pick in the 2007 draft. I'm not sure there's much difference between Lopez and Gasol in terms of talent. Their production sure isn't much different.

[steger_3434]

So Lopez doing what he's doing at age 20 on a team fighting for one of the final playoff spots is similar to Gadz putting up the number you posted in 11 games on a team in tank mode at the end of the season at the age of 26?

Lets conveniently not compare Lopez to the 20 year old center we drafted a few years ago that played on a team that fought for a final playoff spot. Lopez is definitely much more comparable to 26 year old garbage time Gadz than same age Bogut.

My point is Ayt, stats don't tell the whole story. As I said, Lopez is better than Gadz. I'm not comparing the two in terms of talent. I'm saying that on the Nets, Lopez has to get numbers because their other centers are truly awful. I'm not sure his numbers make him a great player. Perhaps they do and if he becomes a great player I'll be here saying I was wrong just like I'm here now saying I was wrong about how good he'd be thus far.

But even though he's been better than I anticipated, I don't believe he's a mega-star who the Bucks are going to be kicking themselves for passing on for the next several years. I think a reliable backup center can be found without much difficulty and I believe a player of Lopez's ability will be found in subsequent drafts - even if the Bucks don't have a lottery pick. The Lakers got Marc Gasol with the 48th pick in the 2007 draft. I'm not sure there's much difference between Lopez and Gasol in terms of talent. Their production sure isn't much different.

WTF is that logic? He's putting up numbers similar to Bogut did his rookie year with high games well above what Bogut has EVER done. All while playing with two players Harris, Carter that are better than the any player we had during Boguts rookie year. If anything what Lopez is doing should make you think he's a guy that you could possibly build around. That is if you think that way with Bogut.

[steger_3434]

So Lopez doing what he's doing at age 20 on a team fighting for one of the final playoff spots is similar to Gadz putting up the number you posted in 11 games on a team in tank mode at the end of the season at the age of 26?

Lets conveniently not compare Lopez to the 20 year old center we drafted a few years ago that played on a team that fought for a final playoff spot. Lopez is definitely much more comparable to 26 year old garbage time Gadz than same age Bogut.

My point is Ayt, stats don't tell the whole story. As I said, Lopez is better than Gadz. I'm not comparing the two in terms of talent. I'm saying that on the Nets, Lopez has to get numbers because their other centers are truly awful. I'm not sure his numbers make him a great player. Perhaps they do and if he becomes a great player I'll be here saying I was wrong just like I'm here now saying I was wrong about how good he'd be thus far.

But even though he's been better than I anticipated, I don't believe he's a mega-star who the Bucks are going to be kicking themselves for passing on for the next several years. I think a reliable backup center can be found without much difficulty and I believe a player of Lopez's ability will be found in subsequent drafts - even if the Bucks don't have a lottery pick. The Lakers got Marc Gasol with the 48th pick in the 2007 draft. I'm not sure there's much difference between Lopez and Gasol in terms of talent. Their production sure isn't much different.

Then my JA equals Haislip posts are spot on. Thanks.

[europa]

WTF is that logic?

I'm not sure where your confusion lies. The point is clear - I don't think Brook Lopez is someone who the Bucks are going to spend the next several years regretting they passed on. Could they use him now? Yes. Do I think they can find someone who can fill the backup center position at a later date more than capably? Yes.

[Ayt]

So Lopez doing what he's doing at age 20 on a team fighting for one of the final playoff spots is similar to Gadz putting up the number you posted in 11 games on a team in tank mode at the end of the season at the age of 26?

Lets conveniently not compare Lopez to the 20 year old center we drafted a few years ago that played on a team that fought for a final playoff spot. Lopez is definitely much more comparable to 26 year old garbage time Gadz than same age Bogut.

My point is Ayt, stats don't tell the whole story. As I said, Lopez is better than Gadz. I'm not comparing the two in terms of talent. I'm saying that on the Nets, Lopez has to get numbers because their other centers are truly awful. I'm not sure his numbers make him a great player. Perhaps they do and if he becomes a great player I'll be here saying I was wrong just like I'm here now saying I was wrong about how good he'd be thus far.

But even though he's been better than I anticipated, I don't believe he's a mega-star who the Bucks are going to be kicking themselves for passing on for the next several years. I think a reliable backup center can be found without much difficulty and I believe a player of Lopez's ability will be found in subsequent drafts - even if the Bucks don't have a lottery pick. The Lakers got Marc Gasol with the 48th pick in the 2007 draft. I'm not sure there's much difference between Lopez and Gasol in terms of talent. Their production sure isn't much different.

If you want to use the argument that Lopez hasn't had anyone around him, look at Bogut. What frontcourt players did he play with in his second year? CV got hurt right away and never looked the same when he finally did come back. Skinner is Skinner. What else did we have?

Also, don't make this into a strawman argument. I'm not saying Lopez is going to be a megastar. In fact, all I'm doing is arguing against your view that guys like him are available every year, even in the second round. So far, you have one example, which is Gasol. How many guys taken in the second round (or even anywhere out of the lottery), have played like him or Lopez as rookies in the last 5 years?

[steger_3434]

WTF is that logic?

I'm not sure where your confusion lies. The point is clear - I don't think Brook Lopez is someone who the Bucks are going to spend the next several years regretting they passed on. Could they use him now? Yes. Do I think they can find someone who can fill the backup center position at a later date more than capably? Yes.

Care to reply about Lopez putting up similar stats to Bogut with greater highs on a team very comparible to the Bucks in Bogut's rookie.

[Ayt]

So Lopez doing what he's doing at age 20 on a team fighting for one of the final playoff spots is similar to Gadz putting up the number you posted in 11 games on a team in tank mode at the end of the season at the age of 26?

Lets conveniently not compare Lopez to the 20 year old center we drafted a few years ago that played on a team that fought for a final playoff spot. Lopez is definitely much more comparable to 26 year old garbage time Gadz than same age Bogut.

My point is Ayt, stats don't tell the whole story. As I said, Lopez is better than Gadz. I'm not comparing the two in terms of talent. I'm saying that on the Nets, Lopez has to get numbers because their other centers are truly awful. I'm not sure his numbers make him a great player. Perhaps they do and if he becomes a great player I'll be here saying I was wrong just like I'm here now saying I was wrong about how good he'd be thus far.

But even though he's been better than I anticipated, I don't believe he's a mega-star who the Bucks are going to be kicking themselves for passing on for the next several years. I think a reliable backup center can be found without much difficulty and I believe a player of Lopez's ability will be found in subsequent drafts - even if the Bucks don't have a lottery pick. The Lakers got Marc Gasol with the 48th pick in the 2007 draft. I'm not sure there's much difference between Lopez and Gasol in terms of talent. Their production sure isn't much different.

WTF is that logic? He's putting up numbers similar to Bogut did his rookie year with high games well above what Bogut has EVER done. All while playing with two players Harris, Carter that are better than the any player we had during Boguts rookie year. If anything what Lopez is doing should make you think he's a guy that you could possibly build around. That is if you think that way with Bogut.

Its actually even worse than that. I think some of us forget that Bogut put up only 9 and 7 his rookie year. HIs second year, he averaged 12 and 9, which is basically what Lopez is doing now as a rookie starter.

[europa]

Care to reply about Lopez putting up similar stats to Bogut with greater highs on a team very comparible to the Bucks in Bogut's rookie.

I think Lopez is doing well. I don't believe he has Bogut's overall talent and upside. Lopez also doesn't share time with other solid frontcourt players the way Bogut did with Magloire and Smith during his rookie season. The Nets' frontcourt situation is pretty dismal.

[steger_3434]

Who knows how Lopez will mature as a player. However, as of right now he's on a team with no frontcourt with two gaurds that possibly could be all-stars on a team that is fighting for the playoffs.

That sounds pretty damn familiar to the Bucks team Bogut was on.

Don't take me comparing Lopez to Bogut as me bashing Bogut. I'm saying that is how good of a player Lopez has been so far this year. Just a shame that the Nets landed a "bogut" with the number 8 pick while we passed on him for Haislip.