Have We Improved?

[APerna]

A lot has been said of our record, which after tonight's win over Houston stands at 16-27. The players believe that they are better than their record, but at this point in time I'm not so sure. We appear to be very close to the 36-46 squad we were in 2007-08, according to the numbers.

We are slightly better offensively, but have regressed a little defensively. You can contend that we've been in a majority of our losses, but a loss is a loss. We have also stunk up the join on occasion. Without taking hype, or the sum of what our parts should be into account, are we a better club?

You guys can read a substantially more organized argument that we aren't yet a better team on RealGM's main page. I'd like to believe I'm above linking my own stuff.

[chatard5]

I think we have improved. According to some computer rankings, we have had the toughest schedule so far. And we are what, 5-9 in games decided by 3 points or less? If we were 9-5 we would be 1/2 a game back. I think our schedule gets a little easier, so we will get some more wins. Hopefully Dunleavy coming back can give us a few more points a game. We have beaten the Lakers and the Celtics, and have shown we can beat or at least put up a good fight against any team. 4 1/2 games back isn't toooo much to overcome, but I am optimistic. We're pretty much at the halfway point, so I give us a chance at the playoffs and would definitely say we are improved and closer to being a regular playoff team like we were for those 15 straight years.

[xxSnEaKyPxx]

PP its nice to see ya start posting in things other than the PaceSetter. I miss your old posts.

I agree with you, I don't think we've improved. We barely beat the Rockets without their 3 best players today. I think our team as a whole have improved, but Obie's style really works against our team in most cases. If we had a coach who coached defense, take advantage of mismatches and could draw up a decent play towards the end of a game, we could have a good record. Instead we have Obie, who seems to get off with his awful choices because he has the whole "We aren't talented excuse." But I don't buy it. We may not have the best team in the NBA, but we are better than our record shows, our coach just screws us over too much.

Sadly, I believe Bird has Obie's back for at least another year, which means we'll be in the lottery next year also. Get used to it.

[cdash]

On paper, we have improved. As a team, I think we have improved. The real problem here is: The entire Eastern Conference has improved too. I really think we arent going to make the next step until we can learn how to play some decent defense. Hell, we can continue to have our blase attitude on defense for 3 1/2 quarters, as long as we can learn to lock it down in the fourth.

[Grang33r]

I think we have improved. According to some computer rankings, we have had the toughest schedule so far. And we are what, 5-9 in games decided by 3 points or less? If we were 9-5 we would be 1/2 a game back. I think our schedule gets a little easier, so we will get some more wins. Hopefully Dunleavy coming back can give us a few more points a game. We have beaten the Lakers and the Celtics, and have shown we can beat or at least put up a good fight against any team. 4 1/2 games back isn't toooo much to overcome, but I am optimistic. We're pretty much at the halfway point, so I give us a chance at the playoffs and would definitely say we are improved and closer to being a regular playoff team like we were for those 15 straight years.

I agree. I do think the Pacers have improved and i think the improvement is actually great. Just because a team isn't winning, i don't think it really shows that they are not "improving" and heading towards a bright future. On top of those 3 points or less stats that chatard5 posted, but Pacers have lost 11 games with 4 of less. I was watching the telecast on Martin Luther King day, which was the New Orleans feed. And they said on their telecast that Pacers lead the league in that category.

TJ Ford in my opinion can succeed but only for two reasons. Last season he had the most assists for 3-pointers then any point guard in the league, so he needs shooters. And when Mike Dunleavy missed as much time as he did, that hurt Ford's chances of success. When Dunleavy returned, Ford has been playing banged up. And two, like my last point, he needs to be healthy. Which he isn't right now.

There will be growing pains and i do think the Pacers need to improve several things before making the playoffs, but if someone tells me right now we are NOT going to make the playoffs next season, i will call them crazy. We are only like 4 games behind Milwaukee for 8th right now and we are struggling with our growing pains and injuries. The defense needs to improve and i truly believe, developing Roy Hibbert and Brandon Rush from now to the end, and then having a full off-season with both of them with NBA experience, both will have much greater impacts next season. Hopefully the Pacers can add a little bit in the draft, maybe a Greg Monroe? Maybe they draft a guy who some (like me) are not high on like Jordan Hill and he blossoms into a very good player?

This team alone though, i do think have improved. From game 1 of this season to now, i think their a much better team. When the season began, not many believed we'd be close to a playoff spot, and yet, if Dunleavy was healthy all year, or even if Ford was healthy all year, we could argue that we'd be in the top 8 right now. I honestly don't remember reading one person say they think we are top 8 this season, even in a weak Eastern conference. But we are close.

[Miller4ever]

I think we have improved. The stats may be against it, but it's the way we're playing. Obviously, we are horrible at defense, but I don't think the team needs big changes (besides a coaching change as soon as the playoffs end). We are only one or two key components away from greatness. One trade. One pick. Last year, we were farther away. We were four or five trades back, three picks short, and one All-Star away from competing with the big boys.

Look at the opponents we have taken down. If this was BCS, Pacers wouldn't be ranked so low. We'd be ranked higher than our spot last year.

I can see how statistically our numbers don't seem to be better than last year's, but I think our basketball is better.

[APerna]

Here's a key portion of stats I looked at:

Stat – 2008-09 Season, 2007-08 Season
Points – 104.2, 104.0
FG% - 45.2, 44.4
3P% - 37.0, 37.4
FT% - 80.6, 76.8
Points Allowed – 106.7, 105.4
FG% Allowed – 45.9, 45.4
3P% Allowed – 37.0, 38.6
Rebounds – 43.7, 43.1
Rebounding Differential – (0.3), (2.4)
Assists – 23.0, 22.7
Steals – 7.0, 7.6
Blocks – 5.0, 5.0
Turnover Differential – (0.8), (0.3)
Assist-Turnover Ratio – 1.51, 1.54

You can see, we are better in some areas, but look substantially worse defensively.

[PR07]

We're a better team. I think this group has definitely taken a step forward, but we're still not where we need to be. The backcourt has definitely improved with Jack, Ford's, and to a lesser extent Brandon Rush's arrival. Teams are barely beating us, and while a loss is still a loss, I think it's still something you have to consider.

[JarrettJackSG]

PG: We have traded off. Tinsley made players like Brandon Rush look legit. Ford, while injured, provides great scoring. However, he is limited by Obie's system, since he is not a true PG.

SG: We lost a lot with BRush sucking and playing worse than KRush, but Quis was good for a while. Dun being back helped us lately, and Jack plays well here. But we are still worse as of now.

SF: Granger took a step.

PF: Murphy took a huge step. I think one more season and we'll see the Murphy of old that could live up to 75% of GSW's contract.

C: No question, losing O'Neal hurts us defensively, and we still are getting killed down low (remember Duncan?)

Bench: Somehow, we used KRush, Murray, and Harrison better than Hibbert, Rush, and Jack. Jack has been good for us though.

I think that we really need better players for this system. Trade Rush, Hibbert, Jack, these players don't fit in. Trade ford for a PG that Obie likes, maybe. I trust O'Brien with our system, with the defense he runs (it looks just like Boston's and SA's, except we don't have a big that can defend even Shawn Bradley).

I think that overall the team needs to learn O'Brien's system better and we need to get him some better pieces. Rasho won't be back. Hibbert is not a defensive answer. Foster isn't the type of defensive ceneter we need. As the son in law of Jack Ramsey, as a coach who has coached in the Conference Finals and brought poor teams into the playoffs, I don't see how we need to fire him.

[writerman]

I think we have improved. The East has gotten noticeably tougher, and we've had overall possibly the toughest schedule in the league since day one.

Let's put it this way--considering who we've beaten so far this season, and how competitive we've been in the vast majority of our games, if we shouid sneak into the playoff as an 8th seed, do you think whoever the 1st seed turns out to be would be salivating at getting the opportunity to play us in the first round?

I don't think so. I think there are a number of other teams that might win the 8th seed that any 1st seed would much prefer to play rather than us. Less chance of them getting an embarrassing early vacation.

We aren't a winning team that's indisputable--but we are not a bad team. "Good" teams that look at our record and think so will often get a nasty surprise. That's been established, folks.

Any disappointments? I'd like to see the kids play more, especially Hibbert. You don't seriously contend in this league without a quality big man. I think Hibbert has shown he can be that for us. You have to be patient with good young bigs and give them the opportunity to play through and learn from their mistakes.

I'm satisfied thus far. I think we have a bright future. I hope we don't make the playoffs--I want a good lottery pick.

[mr_merriweather]

I think the players on the team have improved, but the team itself has not. Losing JO was necessary but it also was a big blow to the quality of our team--post presences like that change games. The fact that we're still more or less in the same boat as last season is a testament to the quality and improvement of our new guys, but we have one of the worst frontcourts in the NBA, especially defensively, so you have to expect that to affect our record.

I don't think we have to tank to fix this. The cap space we'll have and the midlevel exception will make it possible for us to maybe pick up one or two of solid front court players, thinking like Wilcox, Bass or Milsap, nothing fancy but it'd probably do wonders for the team.

[FreeRon]

No offense, JarretJack, but even if O'Brien is a great coach you don't typically trade away half the team to accommodate a coach. I don't think he is as good a coach as you are giving him credit for, either. I think he's better than most give him credit for, but it's hard to tell because the whole purpose of last offseason was to rebuild. I'm obviously all for trading Tinsley, but to give up on Rush and Hibbert after less than a year seems really silly. I understand they were supposed to be more NBA ready than the other draftees, but you have to give them some time! With Foster I can see your point, but I'll never like the idea of trading him because he's sometimes the only guy trying on the floor.

[xxSnEaKyPxx]

PG: We have traded off. Tinsley made players like Brandon Rush look legit. Ford, while injured, provides great scoring. However, he is limited by Obie's system, since he is not a true PG.

SG: We lost a lot with BRush sucking and playing worse than KRush, but Quis was good for a while. Dun being back helped us lately, and Jack plays well here. But we are still worse as of now.

SF: Granger took a step.

PF: Murphy took a huge step. I think one more season and we'll see the Murphy of old that could live up to 75% of GSW's contract.

C: No question, losing O'Neal hurts us defensively, and we still are getting killed down low (remember Duncan?)

Bench: Somehow, we used KRush, Murray, and Harrison better than Hibbert, Rush, and Jack. Jack has been good for us though.

I think that we really need better players for this system. Trade Rush, Hibbert, Jack, these players don't fit in. Trade ford for a PG that Obie likes, maybe. I trust O'Brien with our system, with the defense he runs (it looks just like Boston's and SA's, except we don't have a big that can defend even Shawn Bradley).

I think that overall the team needs to learn O'Brien's system better and we need to get him some better pieces. Rasho won't be back. Hibbert is not a defensive answer. Foster isn't the type of defensive ceneter we need. As the son in law of Jack Ramsey, as a coach who has coached in the Conference Finals and brought poor teams into the playoffs, I don't see how we need to fire him.

O'Brien is the worst coach in the history of the NBA, he isn't qualified to coach a JV High School team. I am convinced that you want the Pacers to suck. Its so clear now. "Trade our 2 youngest players to bow down to our awful coach's desires." Its funny, Obie has openly said how he thinks he sees a very bright future in both of them. I swear, you do not understand basketball, at all.

I can't figure out why you are not a Warriors fan. A bunch of undersized players who do nothing but score seems right up your ally.

[JarrettJackSG]

No offense, JarretJack, but even if O'Brien is a great coach you don't typically trade away half the team to accommodate a coach. I don't think he is as good a coach as you are giving him credit for, either. I think he's better than most give him credit for, but it's hard to tell because the whole purpose of last offseason was to rebuild. I'm obviously all for trading Tinsley, but to give up on Rush and Hibbert after less than a year seems really silly. I understand they were supposed to be more NBA ready than the other draftees, but you have to give them some time! With Foster I can see your point, but I'll never like the idea of trading him because he's sometimes the only guy trying on the floor.

Re:Trading away half a team for a coach/system

See:
Larry Brown
Gregg Popovich
Phil Jackson
D'Antioni
Jerry Sloan
Phil Riley

I feel like we were lied to in the NBA draft on Rush. He should have come in and lighted it up with at least 12/4/1/1 and much better shooting. I understand that it is way too early to give up on them (they need 2 seasons more at least) but I wouldn't put them at untouchable either, nor would I put them over Murphleavy atm.

As for J'OB being a bad coach, hate all you want. I don't need to respond to slander on my character or his. He's the best coach for the job, and there are maybe only 7 active coaches better than him. In Bird we trust, and J'OB's track record speaks for himself. If he makes the playoffs this year, it just strengthens his resume. i wish that he had a better opportunity to prove himself, as he certianly has not got as lucky as some coaches have gotten with players.

And as for why I am not a Warriors fan, I used to watch them before they got Nellie, and my favorite team other than the Pacers is the Spurs, whom I used to watch 40+ games regularly of before focusing my coverage on the Pacers instead.

[cdash]

Dude, get over Rush already. All your whining and bitching isnt going to change anything, and I think we all are very aware of your position on the matter at this point.

7 or 8 active coaches better than JOB? Off the top of my head: Jackson, Popovich, Sloan, D'Antoni, Larry Brown, Stan Van Gundy, Rivers, Frank, Mike Brown, Adelman, McMillan, Karl.

Now, with this being said, I do agree with you that Rush and Hibbert should not be deemed untouchable. Granger is the only player worthy of such a tag at this point. Also, while I dont think JOB is a particularly good coach, his style fits the personnel fairly well. I dont think he is a guy who can lead you to a title, or win you anything more than a series or two (yes, I'm aware he coached Boston to a ECF).

[JarrettJackSG]

Dude, get over Rush already. All your whining and bitching isnt going to change anything, and I think we all are very aware of your position on the matter at this point.

7 or 8 active coaches better than JOB? Off the top of my head: Jackson, Popovich, Sloan, D'Antoni, Larry Brown, Stan Van Gundy, Rivers, Frank, Mike Brown, Adelman, McMillan, Karl.

Now, with this being said, I do agree with you that Rush and Hibbert should not be deemed untouchable. Granger is the only player worthy of such a tag at this point. Also, while I dont think JOB is a particularly good coach, his style fits the personnel fairly well. I dont think he is a guy who can lead you to a title, or win you anything more than a series or two (yes, I'm aware he coached Boston to a ECF).

And no one so far has called out other people for being just as annoying about other subjects? (Hibbert, O'Brien to name a few. As long as there are people beating dead horses, I will too.)

Out of that list, Frank hasn't proved anything, Rivers is a medicore coach who got lucky (do you really want to list Rivers as good coach? Really? I don't want to go down the road of labeling the faults of Frank/Rivers, but I can if you want), M.Brown would be a medicore coach without LBJ, I will concede the rest.

I fully believe that if J'OB had the players that Rivers/M.Brown had, he would do just as good if not better than them.

[cdash]

Who's beating a dead horse about Hibbert? With JOB, its not just one person. Its quite a few, and when your team is struggling and the coach makes some odd moves, well, you are going to have that.

I never said they were good coaches, I just said they are better than JOB. Frank has done a good job at NJ, this season in particular. That team looked awful, and he has restructured the offense to fit Devin Harris fairly well. Not to mention, he's getting quite a bit out of Brook Lopez and Vince Carter. The same Vince Carter who everyone thought would half-ass it all year. There's something to be said for keeping your job as long as he has. Doc Rivers won a title last year with a largely new roster. I agree to an extent that he lucked into KG, Allen, and Pierce, but winning a title still isnt easy. Mike Brown you can argue about, but that Cavs team that made the Finals a few years ago was awful aside from LBJ. He stresses defense and gets results. Is he a great coach? Probably not, but hes done more than JOB has.

[xxSnEaKyPxx]

And no one so far has called out other people for being just as annoying about other subjects? (Hibbert, O'Brien to name a few. As long as there are people beating dead horses, I will too.)

Out of that list, Frank hasn't proved anything, Rivers is a medicore coach who got lucky (do you really want to list Rivers as good coach? Really? I don't want to go down the road of labeling the faults of Frank/Rivers, but I can if you want), M.Brown would be a medicore coach without LBJ, I will concede the rest.

I fully believe that if J'OB had the players that Rivers/M.Brown had, he would do just as good if not better than them.

No one else has been annoying about other subjects in my eyes.

[JarrettJackSG]

And no one so far has called out other people for being just as annoying about other subjects? (Hibbert, O'Brien to name a few. As long as there are people beating dead horses, I will too.)

Out of that list, Frank hasn't proved anything, Rivers is a medicore coach who got lucky (do you really want to list Rivers as good coach? Really? I don't want to go down the road of labeling the faults of Frank/Rivers, but I can if you want), M.Brown would be a medicore coach without LBJ, I will concede the rest.

I fully believe that if J'OB had the players that Rivers/M.Brown had, he would do just as good if not better than them.

No one else has been annoying about other subjects in my eyes.

I'm glad you don't look at your own posts then.

[xxSnEaKyPxx]

Hey man, if I annoy other people here, I have no problem leaving. I don't want to be somewhere where I annoy everyone.