Can the Hawks make or win the Finals with Horford at the 5?

[ATL DirtyBird]

In my opinion it depends on other people. So my answer is no. I could go on and on. Its possible if everyone else plays to their full potential. I would love to see a championship or even an Easter Conference Championship back in Atlanta but well have to see!

[D21]

I would say NO if it's with the same big guys we already have, or similar ones.
But if we can get another talented big, I would say YES. Actually, it would not be a full YES, because if we get another big, it has to be a 5, not one more 4/5.

So my YES would only be on Horford playing at "the 5 AND the 4".
Let him start at the 5 and play 16" at this position, with the other 16" at the 4 backing up Smith, with a 5 better than Zaza.
Something like
16" Horford / Smith
16" Brad Miller / Horford
16" Brad Miller / Smith
is the only solution I see if we keep both Horford and Smith (replace Miller by everyone who can match this case).

[killbuckner]

Could a team win the finals with Horford at the 5? I think absolutely. If you put Horford on the Celtics as the Center I don't see that being something that would be a problem at all.

Can the Hawks make the finals with Horford at the 5? I just think this team is pretty far away from being a championship quality roster but I don't think that Horford at center is the problem.

[Skyhawk1]

The answer is very simple, NO.

[JoshB914]

We can definetely win a title with Horford at the 5. But obviously we would have to improve in a multitude of other areas.

[Lue_4_MVP]

Finals? Finals?!

I just hope we pass the damn first-round.

[Retrovision]

FINALS? FINALS!!! we cant win a game but your talking about FINALS?

Do the Atlanta Hawks win it all assuming BK doesnt reject that twolve,sun,hawk trade #3 and #11 for STAT??

[ATL DirtyBird]

I didnt make this poll bc I thought we could make it to the finals this year cuz I know there is no chance in hell in that when we cant win the games were supposed to. Im saying that in 2 years or so can we do it. We suck as of now but who knows what will happen after the all star break, its a whole new season!

[HoopsGuru25]

Basketball is not about positions....which is why I hate when everyone says you need to draft a certain position(usually pg or center)just about every year. The Hawks(like every other team) need a superstar player to win a title. Find one of those and then you can nitpick about positions.

[HMFFL]

I voted yes. Are some of you forgetting the intensity Al played with against Boston during the playoffs? His game is far from being developed, but he's a positive impact on this team, and with the right pieces around him this team will be successful.

[parson]

Would we be any better with Kendrick Perkins? Would BOS be better with Horford? Of course, the correct responses are "no" and "yes."

Does that answer the question?

[tontoz]

Would we be any better with Kendrick Perkins? Would BOS be better with Horford? Of course, the correct responses are "no" and "yes."

Does that answer the question?

Not really. I don't see much of a gap between the two. Horford shoots better from the ft line but perkins shoots better from the field. Neither is a scorer.

Defensively Perkins is much better defending big post players. I saw him punk Yao defensively without help at all. Horford is better against smaller players.

They are both just role players. There is nothing special about either one.

[parson]

They are both just role players. There is nothing special about either one.

Sometimes, when you've staked out a position, you go a liiiiiiiittle too far. You've gone from saying Horford is a good player who's out of position at the 5 to saying that he's seriously flawed offensively to now saying he's "nothing special." Be careful or next you'll be saying he steals candy from babies and pushes little old ladies out into traffic.

There a lot of respected NBA minds who have spoken very highly of Horford. To have performed as well as he did in the playoffs as a rookie is a great indicator. He WAS the ROY last season.

'toz, I think BOS would fall all over themselves to make the trade if we offered them Horford for Perkins.

[tontoz]

They are both just role players. There is nothing special about either one.

Sometimes, when you've staked out a position, you go a liiiiiiiittle too far. You've gone from saying Horford is a good player who's out of position at the 5 to saying that he's seriously flawed offensively to now saying he's "nothing special." Be careful or next you'll be saying he steals candy from babies and pushes little old ladies out into traffic.

There a lot of respected NBA minds who have spoken very highly of Horford. To have performed as well as he did in the playoffs as a rookie is a great indicator. He WAS the ROY last season.

'toz, I think BOS would fall all over themselves to make the trade if we offered them Horford for Perkins.

I look at Horford the same way i look at Marvin. Neither is a star in the making but both are useful role players. The difference is that most people see Marvin for what he is but people still overrate Horford.

Sorry but 11/9 in his second season doesn't scream star potential to me. If i had said after he was drafted that he would be averaging only 11/9 in his second season you would have laughed at me.

Boston just won a title with Perkins as a starting center. I don't think they would be in a hurry to deal a guy who is a perfect role player for them. Who would guard Bynum and Gasol if Perkins wasn't there, Horford?

[parson]

Sorry but 11/9 in his second season doesn't scream star potential to me. If i had said after he was drafted that he would be averaging only 11/9 in his second season you would have laughed at me.

Or I'd assume he'd been injured. Look, he's never going to score much when our guards and Smoove take 80% of the shots. Seriously, do you expect anyone else to score with our backcourt? The only way Smoove gets his shots is by going outside and taking his opportunities. A big man depends on his guards -- and ours don't pass into the low post.

Boston just won a title with Perkins as a starting center. I don't think they would be in a hurry to deal a guy who is a perfect role player for them. Who would guard Bynum and Gasol if Perkins wasn't there, Horford?

They'd find Horford does everything Perkins does, and more.

By the way, did you look up what Horford did against Gasol before laughing? Check out his stats and you might be laughing out of the other side of your mouth.

1st game, against MEM, Horford scored 8 and rebounded 14; pretty good. Gasol scored 13 and had 10 rebounds, hardly what I'd call killing it.

2nd game, against the Lakers, Horford scored 15 and rebounded 20; pretty DARN good, huh? Gasol had 12 and 7. What's that you say?

3rd game, again against the Lakers, Horford got into early foul trouble and sat for a long time. He only recorded 4 and 5. Gasol went off against (mainly) Zaza and Solomon for 23 points. But then, the entire team got waxed that game.

Your point about Gasol? I'm missing head-to-head with Bynum.

Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way. Maybe I ought to look at how Horford did against Perkins head-to-head:
1st game: Horford 16-7; Perkins 4-7
2nd game: Horford 14-11; Perkins 11-12 (Oh, goody for you)
3rd game: Horford 17-11; Perkins 4-4

How about the playoffs?
1st game: Horford 20-10; Perkins 3-6 (!!!)
2nd game: Horford 9-9; Perkins 8-9
3rd game: Horford 17-14; Perkins 10-2
4th game: Horford 4-13; Perkins 6-9
5th game: Horford 14-10; Perkins 2-4
6th game: Horford 16-5; Perkins 14-5
7th game: Horford 8-12; Perkins 10-10

What am I missing?

Oh yeah, in 7 games against Gasol, Perkins averaged 4 and 3.6 (ouch!), while Gasol had 14.7 and 10.2
Horford, in 3 games, averaged 8.7 and 13 to Gasol's 16 and 7.7

I REALLY REALLY want to know where you get off equating Kendrick Perkins with Al Horford.

[tontoz]

Sorry but 11/9 in his second season doesn't scream star potential to me. If i had said after he was drafted that he would be averaging only 11/9 in his second season you would have laughed at me.

Or I'd assume he'd been injured..

He hasn't played since his injury. His injury has no effect on his numbers at all.

I REALLY REALLY want to know where you get off equating Kendrick Perkins with Al Horford

OK

Scoring per 40 minutes
Perkins 11.6
Horford 13.1

Rebounding per 40
Perkins 11.18
Horford 10.57

Try posting a Horford for Perkins trade on the Boston board. You might be surprised at the responses.

[killbuckner]

Perkins blocks more shots and is certainly the bulkier player. I think that on Defense I'd take Perkins. If Horford's going to make that up it would have to be on the offensive end and Horford just hasn't shown the ability to use his quickness to take advantage of lumbering centers. Perkins does turn the ball over a ton for someone who gets the ball so rarely. Horford went last season from having slightly more TO's than assists to this season having 84 assits to just 51 turnovers. (Perkins has 49 assists to 91 turnobers... Perkins sets a lot of illegal screens)

I still think that people are still judging Horford as a potential allstar type PF and that needs to be reassed until he starts showing more ability on offense. Right now he is a defense/rebounding center that doesn't block a ton of shots.

[conleyorbust]

I think Hoopsguru hit the nail on the head. The problem with this team winning a title with Horford at the 5 isn't that Horford can't play the 5, its that we don't have a superstar, and even more obviously, a superstar center.

Obviously the question here is whether or not we are better off with Al at the 5 and Josh at the 4 or whether we'd be better off moving one of them and finding a different center. Suppose we got Bogut/Kaman/Biedrins, the question becomes "Can the Hawks win the finals with Bogut/Kaman/Biedrins at the 5?" and the answer remains "probably not unless you get a superstar at the 1, 2 or 3." (Obviously either Josh or Al are going to be at the 4 and Al doesn't look to have superstar potential and if Josh does, its unlikely he'll ever be able to fully tap it).

That isn't to say I think we should tear the team down and hope for a superstar. Nor does it mean I think we should necessarilly try to sell the farm for a second tier star like Amare because its the next best thing. Just that a title is unlikely with this team and arguing about individual positions is really just academic without that key component. For the record, I think we are probably better off with the Smith/Horford combo than what we'd get in a trade for Smith if the trade was to specifically bring in a center. I think Al's value was probably inflated over the summer but it might have normalized at this point and the same holds for him as for Smith. I'd like to see us get a bruising backup C in our rotation to make up for the lack of size in the frontcourt but most games we lose, I don't really think the issue is size in the starting frontcourt.

[parson]

Tontoz, your #s are as players in a system. I gave you the answer to your claim (which you should acknowledge) that Perkins would be better against Gasol (I have no Bynum #s) and I added Horford head-to-head against Perkins. Your response is "per 40 minutes"???

Horford is getting 8.2 shot per game. It's hard to post any #s at all at that rate.

As for going over to the C's board, not gonna do it; wouldn't be prudent. Too many of 'em are still screaming about Horford being so rude to poor little Paul Pierce that Pierce was "forced" to make that gang sign last year.

[tontoz]

Tontoz, your #s are as players in a system. I gave you the answer to your claim (which you should acknowledge) that Perkins would be better against Gasol (I have no Bynum #s) and I added Horford head-to-head against Perkins.

Obviously you forgot the question that you asked. I will repost it for you.

I REALLY REALLY want to know where you get off equating Kendrick Perkins with Al Horford

you were the one who brought up Perkins in this thread. not me. Their production is very comparable. That is just a fact.

As far as Gasol goes Horford may have done better than Perkins agianst him but my point was more directed to big post players in general. Horford has shown time and again he can't handle guys that are much bigger than him. Boston has to go through Cleveland to get to the Finals and horford can't do anything with Big Z.

Who would guard guys like that if Perkins isn't around? Perkins has value specifically because he can effectively guard guys like that. Perkins is one of the few players i have seen that can effectively guard Yao without help. Horford has no chance against him.

I remember one game last year when Big Z was clowning Horford and Horford got benched. They put Smith at center. Obviously Smith is too small to defend big Z. However on consecutive trips down the floor Smith beat Big Z off the dribble for layups. the Cavs pulled big Z out of the game. horford never does that.

Horford is getting 8.2 shot per game. It's hard to post any #s at all at that rate.

I could make that same argument with Perkins. In fact it would be far more appropriate with Perkins since Boston has far more potent scorers than we do and therefore don't need him to score. We need more inside scoring from Horford but aren't getting it. When Smith was out horford didn't pick up his scoring at all.