Comparing Amare/Shaq to Duncan/Robinson

[enigmatics]

I'm curious. Having twin towers worked for the Spurs when Robinson and Duncan absolutely destroyed people up the middle. Why is it that that philosophy cannot work with Shaq and Amare? Is it because Amare is one-dimensional? As in he needs space to be effective?

[flanpaw42]

EGO!!!!!!!!

Thats it. robinson and duncan didnt have one, and amare and shaq do.

[TASTIC]

Yeah I mentioned this in another thread. Robinson and Duncan = two professionals devoid of ego/jealousy/greed

Shaq/Amare = the complete opposite. Both demand attention, money and THE BALL...

[enigmatics]

The day we acquired Shaq I knew that we'd have another Kobe/Shaq situation just due to the egos involved. Notice how you never hear Shaq refer to Amare as though he wants to make him the best big man in the league. In fact, he doesn't talk about him at all.

[rsavaj]

The day we acquired Shaq I knew that we'd have another Kobe/Shaq situation just due to the egos involved. Notice how you never hear Shaq refer to Amare as though he wants to make him the best big man in the league. In fact, he doesn't talk about him at all.

lol it is interesting how last season it was all "AMARE STOUDEMIRE PROJECT" and "HE'S THE BEST BIG MAN IN THE LEAGUE!" and this season...not a peep.

[Stix]

Yeah I mentioned this in another thread. Robinson and Duncan = two professionals devoid of ego/jealousy/greed

Shaq/Amare = the complete opposite. Both demand attention, money and THE BALL...

pretty much

[tsherkin]

Well, both played defense in San Antonio. Amare doesn't. Both were epic rebounders in San Antonio. Amare isn't.

Both were good passers in San Antonio. Amare isn't.

Both D-Rob and Duncan were also better defenders than Shaq, and yeah, Robinson was willing to suffer individual statistical repression in order to facilitate team victory. Amare isn't.

[Never Fear 33 Is Here]

Well, both played defense in San Antonio. Amare doesn't. Both were epic rebounders in San Antonio. Amare isn't.

Both were good passers in San Antonio. Amare isn't.

Both D-Rob and Duncan were also better defenders than Shaq, and yeah, Robinson was willing to suffer individual statistical repression in order to facilitate team victory. Amare isn't.

Exactly what I was about to say and the most important factor in my opinion. Having said that, it shouldn't be Ama're who has to suffer individual stats. It should be Shaq................no ifs or buts about it.

[ChuckTaylors310]

don't 4get about Bynum/Gasol (before the injury)

[tsherkin]

Exactly what I was about to say and the most important factor in my opinion. Having said that, it shouldn't be Ama're who has to suffer individual stats. It should be Shaq................no ifs or buts about it.

And in reality, it should be neither, but Porter isn't arranging the offense sensibly. Mind this, Shaq's taking a hair over 11 shots a game and posting the second-lowest usage rate of his career.

Phoenix's problems are not the result of Shaq touching the ball a lot, certainly not at over 58% FG and shooting a 6-year high from the foul line on over 7 attempts a game. It's not even the offense, which is generally fine (5th in the league in pace and in ORTG). The Suns continue to be plagued by a mediocre defense with critical holes at the 1 and the 4 and (despite Shaq) a rebounding deficiency. Now, they're outrebounding teams this year, but there's a significant advantage for their opponents on the offensive glass, just about 2 extra offensive boards a game, and that means that the Suns need to man up on the defensive glass more effectively than they have done thus far. That's not a Shaq problem, that's an "everyone else" problem. For example Amare, who's posting the second-worst DREB% of his career this season.

Amare is a scorer, yes. And he's as useless as tits on a bull if he's not getting the ball... but since the team's offense is still generally doing fine without him, the answer isn't necessarily "feed Amare the ball more," though that would help in the regular season. The answer instead is "halve the number of critical failures on defense you field in your starting lineup and improve your rebounding and team play," which is more sensible in any case.

Also, I might point this out:

Loyalty to Amare is, at least in part, coming because people see him as a young guy (26) who could anchor a team as the star.

But are we forgetting that he's like 2 years away from another round of microfracture surgery? His own doctor said the surgery wasn't going to be a permanent thing, that it'd have to happen again about 3 or 4 years after the initial surgery. This is something that should be legitimately considered too, especially with issues of longevity and stardom and what-not being bandied around.

The Suns have mortgaged their future for a title window and that's fine; it worked out beautifully for the Celtics. Now Phoenix needs to stick to that plan, move Amare for the right pieces and make a real title run.

In any case, I wouldn't say Shaq needs to sacrifice much of anything. I think if anything, if the Suns plan on keeping Amare around, his role needs to be intensified in the nearly 20 minutes a game when Shaq isn't playing. There's more than enough time to give Amare the ball when Shaq's riding pine, you just have to be clever with your rotations so Amare only spends like 2/3s of his time on the floor with Shaq... which has the added effect of bolstering your offense when Shaq isn't on the floor.

Porter's just too stupid to figure this stuff out.

[rsavaj]

Would Rasheed Wallace help this team get over the hump tsherkin? Or is he not the player he once was?

[BeRight32]

not even close

[tsherkin]

Would Rasheed Wallace help this team get over the hump tsherkin? Or is he not the player he once was?

Well, he's not the offensive force that is Amare, and he's not even as good a mid-range or FT shooter, but he's a solid 35%+ threat from downtown, he's great at boxing out (though not a very good rebounder) and he's still a pretty good defender. And he definitely plays better at the 4 than the 5, so that'd be a pleasant shift for him.

Hard to say. I think he'd do alright and he's an expiring, so it'd attract Sarver's attention. Over the hump? There'd still be the issue of guarding the 2/3 and the 1 and Sheed wouldn't much help with that, but he'd plug one hole and offensively, he'd fit well next to Shaq in a very Robert Horry-like role. He's also a decent shot-blocker, nothing epic, but useful.

Dunno where the extra scoring load would fall, though. Nash, probably, he could score another 3-4 ppg this year if it was asked of him, especially if he was PnR'g with Rasheed a lot, and I guess Richardson could use some post touches with Shaq on the bench, etc. And it's only a 9 ppg difference, not that big a deal to make up.

HUGE drop in scoring efficiency on those points, though, since you're replacing Amare and his high FG%, high DrawF scoring with Rasheed, who's almost exclusively a perimeter shooter (89% jumpers, 50% eFG on Js, 37% 3P this year).

It's a tough call but I'd say that no, by himself, Sheed wouldn't put the team over the top. Sheed and a good backcourt player (even a G/F) who can defend some, shoot reasonably well and create a shot off of a wing iso and then yeah, the Suns are good.

And we're not talking like Lebron here for the latter, either, I mean I think someone like Eric Gordon, or Ben Gordon, Josh Howard... guys in that tier, they'd be fine.

[Never Fear 33 Is Here]

Porter's just too stupid to figure this stuff out.

You should have put this at the start of your post and I wouldn't have had to read the rest.