ATL-LAC idea

[gtmike]

The Mavs have apparently turned down Baron Davis + Chris Kaman for Jason Kidd, what do you guys think about this idea:

Atl gives:
Mike Bibby + Zaza Pachulia

Atl gets:
Baron Davis + Chris Kaman

I feel like the biggest concerns for most people would be the injury histories of Kaman and Davis and possibly Davis' motivation, but with a winning team, Davis has proven to be healthy and effective...
Gotta admit, it is at least intriguing.

Trade ID #4995427

[Harry10]

Yes, from this Hawks fan.

[Skyhawk1]

I'd do it in a heartbeat.

[D21]

It would provide a the big we need to cover the PF &C positions in a better way, with Kaman, Horford and Smith splitting minutes, and a PG for years for sure, without taking care of re-signing Bibby.

BUT at the cost of a big gamble on injuries !!!

Without Bibby, we are nearly nothing, and it would be the same thing if Baron get injured. Not talking about Kaman injury.

I would prefer keeping Bibby, and only trade for a big with Zaza and Speedy, even a pick if needed and justified.
And I would prefer someone like Brad Miller than Kaman, but it's mainly because I have problem to evaluate the potential real impact of Kaman.

[parson]

I just took a look at Davis' #s, wow!!, they're poor. He's shooting 35% from the floor (Acie, for comparison, is shooting 40%). Sometimes, those thicker-built guys can fade quickly.

I guess that's the reason LAC is trying to trade Davis and Kaman: their games have really dropped.

[mr_grabb]

are you kidding me? Of course any atlanta fan would do that anytime. But why in the world would the Clips do that? I know Davis' numbers are way down this year, but Davis is waaaaaaaaay better than Bibby and Kaman, even if often injured, still has a value well above Zaza's. I agree that both players have down years, but comon...

If the Clips would really be looking at dealing them they would certainly be offered a lot more value than just Bibby's expiring and Zaza.

[SwanseaJack]

But why in the world would the Clips do that?

Well, as you can read in the original post Dallas apparently turned down a Kidd for Davis&Kaman deal. That would have been a pure salary dump, as would this Bibby&Zaza deal too.

I actually wouldn't do this deal, even though I have to admit it is a bit tempting. Anyway, reasons why the Hawks should not do this:

-Baron turns 30 in two months. With his injury history and a playing style based on athletic ability, I wouldn't like to own him 14.750.000 $ in season 2012-13
-Joe Johnson needs a good shooter at PG, Baron is shooting 28% from behind the arc (Bibby 42%).
-Kaman's injury history doesn't look that nice either (just 15 games this season) and defensively he has never been that good. However, his salary in 2011-2012 is a whopping 12.200.000 $.

I like the Hawks current starting five just fine and the current guys give the team a bit more flexibility salarywise than a team with Davis&Kaman would do.

[conleyorbust]

Davis is a big negative in a trade for me.

I don't like Kaman's game at all.

[JoshB914]

B-Diddy for Bibby would absolutely kill team chemistry. I like Baron but he is not worth that contract and his game is clearly declining as he continues to age.

[HoopsGuru25]

The Clippers would have to offer their pick(maybe top 1 protected because it appears this is a 1 man draft) to even get me to consider taking on Baron Davis. Even if we pretended that we were getting a prime Baron Davis....you would still have to question his durability and that we run a half court(which Baron hates)and he's always been an inefficient chucker that teams don't mind doubling off of(which would hurt Joe). I might take a prime Bibby over a prime Baron for this team even though Baron had more talent.

Now Baron looks like one of the worst contracts of all time. He still hasn't shot over 50 percent in any game this year and we are almost at the all-star break. Francis and Marbury(who both turned into awful contracts))still produced at an all-star level in the 1st few years of their long term deals. Baron's already looks like a salary cap killer in year one.

[Rod700]

I would do it in a heartbeat so long as it does not greatly affect out ability to resign Joe. Even then, we could make a move if we had to to free up cap space. Joe doesn't necessarily need a three point shooter at point guard now that Marv is hitting the three as well and helping to spread the floor, besides we have Evans and Flip hitting the 3 off the bench too. Not trading Bibby and Zaza for these guys shows a complete lack of stones. It could mean a championship if these guys could even play at 75% of what they used to. Keep in mind to that Baron's numbers might be a bit low because he never had a chance to gel with his team, and they are both trying to get back in the flow after being out for a while. No one can say they all that talent has just evaporated at this point.

[evildallas]

Actually, I wouldn't do the deal as a Hawks fan. I don't believe in Baron Davis. When he's on, he's a great individual player. When he's off, he's poison to a team. Kamen's health is too iffy for his salary level as well.

The big negative is how the payroll is affected and the changing economy. All signs at this time point to the Hawks being able to resign Bibby to a 3 year deal for a lot less than the contract that Davis inked. This is because of a lack of teams with cap room and a desire for all teams to watch their long term commitments given economic uncertainty. Davis and Kaman would mean that the Hawks go to luxury tax next year to pay just the qualifying offer for Marvin and losing Flip (which might occur anyway).

If you make a deal like this you better hope that Davis and Kaman stay healthy, fit in chemistry wise, and are happy because you would be stuck with them for at least more 3 seasons. Given that Davis has missed double digit games in 6 of his 10 seasons and Kaman has missed double digit games in 3 of his 6 seasons, track history is not on your side.

[conleyorbust]

Actually, I wouldn't do the deal as a Hawks fan. I don't believe in Baron Davis. When he's on, he's a great individual player. When he's off, he's poison to a team. Kamen's health is too iffy for his salary level as well.

The big negative is how the payroll is affected and the changing economy. All signs at this time point to the Hawks being able to resign Bibby to a 3 year deal for a lot less than the contract that Davis inked. This is because of a lack of teams with cap room and a desire for all teams to watch their long term commitments given economic uncertainty. Davis and Kaman would mean that the Hawks go to luxury tax next year to pay just the qualifying offer for Marvin and losing Flip (which might occur anyway).

If you make a deal like this you better hope that Davis and Kaman stay healthy, fit in chemistry wise, and are happy because you would be stuck with them for at least more 3 seasons. Given that Davis has missed double digit games in 6 of his 10 seasons and Kaman has missed double digit games in 3 of his 6 seasons, track history is not on your side.

I agree. I feel like this is the sort of deal you do when you know something NEEDS to be done or you will fizzle. There is the possibiliy that Baron plays to his potential and that Kaman stays on the court and doesn't do too much stupid stuff, but it is more likely that Baron shoots 37% and Kaman gets injured and the team spirals out of control and you blow it all up in the summer using young talent to try and rid yourself of their long-term contracts.

[Rod700]

Actually, I wouldn't do the deal as a Hawks fan. I don't believe in Baron Davis. When he's on, he's a great individual player. When he's off, he's poison to a team. Kamen's health is too iffy for his salary level as well.

The big negative is how the payroll is affected and the changing economy. All signs at this time point to the Hawks being able to resign Bibby to a 3 year deal for a lot less than the contract that Davis inked. This is because of a lack of teams with cap room and a desire for all teams to watch their long term commitments given economic uncertainty. Davis and Kaman would mean that the Hawks go to luxury tax next year to pay just the qualifying offer for Marvin and losing Flip (which might occur anyway).

If you make a deal like this you better hope that Davis and Kaman stay healthy, fit in chemistry wise, and are happy because you would be stuck with them for at least more 3 seasons. Given that Davis has missed double digit games in 6 of his 10 seasons and Kaman has missed double digit games in 3 of his 6 seasons, track history is not on your side.

As always, good points dallas. What I'd like to know though, is roughly how many games they miss per season. I don't know if you have a resource that provides that info or not. (If so, please let me know what it is.) Here are some counterpoints though:

1. Concerning Baron not being a good fit for the Hawks, most people said the same thing about Bibby. A lot of people on this board saw him as an overpaid chucker. Yet, simply having an adequate point guard has done wonders for our team chemistry. I think that our current success shows that we need an adequate starting point to win. In this trade, we not only get such a point guard to replace Bibby, but big man we've been needing as well.

2. I don't think anyone will match us on Marv's qualifying offer.

Having said that though, I would like to see how many games they have each missed per season, and then I would consider what moves I would have to make in the future to keep us out of the luxary tax while keeping JJ. We might have to let Marv go. I'm still for the trade, but you've convinced me that it would probably be better to first explore a trade that brings in just one of these players instead (Kaman).

[Rod700]

How about Kaman for Zaza, Speedy, and a 1st rounder? They get to dump some major salary in exchanging Kaman's contract for Speedy's. They get a replacement center to back up Camby for the rest of the year until his contract expires, and they get a pick to help build their team with.

[evildallas]

How about Kaman for Zaza, Speedy, and a 1st rounder? They get to dump some major salary in exchanging Kaman's contract for Speedy's. They get a replacement center to back up Camby for the rest of the year until his contract expires, and they get a pick to help build their team with.

That same package would work for Brad Miller as well as Kaman. Both are out right now but Miller been healthier this year and only has 1 more year on a similar dollar contract. Which is the more attractive big?

[Rod700]

I do like Brad Miller's passing, but my concern with him is the rumor that his defense has been slipping for some time.

[Rod700]

^^And for me the whole point of bringing in a big is bringing in one that can help defend the larger centers in the league, rather than one who's main contribution is hitting jumpers.

[Rod700]

^^^Camby might be the best of both worlds in that he has been the DPOY, and can pass and facilitate on the offensive end. However, he is getting old like Miller is, and is would not be a large salary dump like Kaman or Baron would. He would probably be much harder to get. I hear he is better weakside help defender than man on man too. Kaman would still be my primary target for a trade.

[parson]

I'd say that there's not much of a chance we get Kamen now if the Bulls rumors are true. CHI has so much talent to offer in a trade, since only Rose is nailed down, that they can blow our offers out of the water.