RealGM 100 Greatest Players #76

[penbeast0]

Voting will remain open for 3 days

Cast a vote, and nominate a player please.

Only judges that have asked to be on the panel can vote, and only their vote will be counted, if you were in the previous panel about 2 yrs ago, you are welcome to vote, and if you would like to be apart of the panel just simply post in the stickied RealGM all time 100 list.

This is based on the players career, rather than peak, just to be clear.

George McGinnis was the last player chosen, here is the newest addition to the list:

Kevin Johnson

3xAll-Star
4x2nd team All-NBA
1x3rd team All-NBA

"Pistol" Pete Maravich

5x All-Star
2x1st, 2x2nd All-NBA team
Led NBA in scoring in 1977
Voted into HOF in 1987

Anfernee "Penny" Hardaway

4-time All-Star
3-time All-NBA Selection
1994 All-Rookie First Team
1 time top 10 MVP voting, 1 time top 5

Dave Bing

7x All-Star
2 1st team All-NBA
1 2nd team All-NBA
2 top 5 MVP finishes
HOF 1990

Connie Hawkins

6x All-Star (4NBA, 1 ABA, 1ABL)
1x All-NBA 1st, 2 All-ABA 1st, 1 All-ABL 1st
1968 ABA MVP
1968 ABA Playoff MVP
1962 ABL MVP
1962 ABL Playoff MVP
Basketball Hall of Fame 1992


Paul Pierce

6x All-Star
3x 3rd team All-NBA
2008 Finals MVP

________________________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________________

VOTING:
Bing, Penny, Pete, and KJ were all flashy, explosive scoring PGs; Bing had the longest career, KJ was the truest point, Penny (with Shaq) went the furthest as a primary player (Maravich got a ring with Boston as a role player), of the four I rate Bing the best for his full career accomplishments.

Pierce and Hawkins are better picks than any of the guards though. Pierce has as long a career as Bing and adds a finals MVP. Hawkins had the unique hard-luck story (possibly the greatest talent loss to the leauge outside possibly Walton or Sabonis) and still managed 2 MVPs in the 1st year ABL and ABAs before tearing up his knee and limping through the rest of his career as a jump shooting wing rather than the explosive skywalking big he was before.

Vote: Connie Hawkins

NOMINATION:
At this point I consider Jack Sikma or Walt Bellamy for big men, maybe Dan Issel too. Forwards I can see Larry Nance or Buck Williams not really feeling Mark Aquirre or Spencer Haywood despite the stats. For guards, I am looking at Kevin Johnson (Mark Price/Tim Hardaway) and Ray Allen (Reggie Miller/Vince Carter); Walter Davis isn't up to Ray Allen's level and I'm not a big Maravich fan. Cutting it down, Sikma stands out over Williams for his titles, Bells is the stat monster, Ray Allen was about the same level as KJ (consistently top 5, usually top 3 at his position but never #1) without the injury issues and with the championship last year. I have Ray a hair better than Reggie Miller too. However, the best two way player is Nance, not just the best defender of the bunch (help defense gives him the edge over Sikma) but also the most efficient offensive player at a career 20ppg. The most underrated top player in NBA history, he quietly put up great numbers for a long time.

I added Shawn Kemp and Spencer Haywood to the list too. they are both worthy of top 100 consideration but . . . Kemp was basically inferior to Jack Sikma in every way. He scored less, with less variety, he rebounded less, he was a lesser defender, a lesser passer, didn't win any rings, and unlike Sikma who was a class act through his career, ended on a bad note. . . Haywood was another spectacular player from the ABA, though he only had one year there. He then played on bad teams in Seattle running up 25-30ppg seasons through his peak, and was probably the most talented of the remaining players. He also had some personal issues, but unlike Kemp came back and was a valuable contributor to some top teams late in his career. All three were possible top 100 players, but Sikma and Haywood should both go before Shawn Kemp.

Big Men:
Player (14 years) G MP FG% FTA FT% REB AST BLK PTS
1 Walt Bellamy 1043 37.3 .516 7.8 .632 13.7 2.4 0.6* 20.1 *Blocks not kept for most of career
2 Larry Nance 920* 33.4 .546 4.2 .755 8.0 2.6 2.2 17.1 *only played 13 years
3 Dan Issel * 1141 35.1 .501 7.0 .792 9.5 2.4 0.6 23.2 21.6 *Includes 6 years in ABA
4 Buck Williams 1122 34.4 .552 4.9 .664 10.7 1.4 0.9 13.9

5 Jack Sikma 1107 33.4 .464 4.6 .849 9.8 3.2 0.9 15.6
6. Shawn Kemp 1051 27.9 .488 5.5 .741 8.4 1.6 1.2 14.6
7. Spencer Haywood 844 34.8 .469 5.3 .796 10.3 1.8 1.1 20.3 *only played 13 years

Guards:
Player (12 years) G MP FG% 3PA 3p% FTA FT% REB AST PTS
1 Ray Allen 860 37.3 .446 6.1 .397 4.4 .889 4.5 3.9 21.1
2 Reggie Miller 847 34.4 .482 4.5 .403 5.7 .879 3.1 3.1 19.7 *1st 12 years out of 18 good ones!
3 Chris Mullin 787 35.4 .514 2.0 .366 4.9 .862 4.5 4.0 20.5

4 Tony Parker 581* 33.2 .488 1.7 .316 3.9 .722 3.1 5.5 16.3 *only 8 years so far, age 26!
5 Chauncey Billups 805 31.9 .416 4.4 .386 4.7 .887 2.9 5.5 15.0

Looking at the numbers, of the bigs, Bellamy and Issel were the offensive stars. Both had inflated numbers, Bellamy by the expansion years and Issel both by his ABA numbers and the pace of his Denver teams. Unfortunately I remember too many debates about how Issel and Bellamy's weaknesses (particularly defenisvely) were the reason their teams couldn't get to the finals.

Williams, Sikma and Nance all had great defensive reps; Bells and Issel average to poor defense. Nance is the only real shotblocker; he is also the weakest rebounder though he played a lot of 3 earlier in his career while all the others spent their career as big men. I was thinking Bellamy or Sikma going in but Nance really looks impressive when you consider his defensive impact and Nance holds up very well offensively with his lower scoring compensated by his higher efficiency. (I always thought he was better both ways than James Worthy who is in).

Of the wings, Mullin had the most versatile game but was the weakest defender and didn't shoot the three pointer as much. Reggie was the most efficient but was basically one dimensional. Allen is the best three point shooter of the three and the one who can create his shot; plus he has a ring now. Neither of the PGs is quite at that level to me. Parker is in as a comp for Billups; they are roughly equal in value offensively but Billups has defense while Parker has 3 rings and is still in the prime of his career and might add value.

Nance v. Allen . . . Allen is the 3 point threat with one ring. Nance is the shotblocker. Nance is nearly as impressive offensively as Allen, far greater defensively, and was truly spectacular to watch . . . remember he is the one that won the first NBA Slam Dunk competition over the likes of Nique and Dr. J.

NOMINATION: "The Thin Man" LARRY NANCE (Jack Sikma if the nomination is close and Nance isn't)

[TMACFORMVP]

Vote: Pierce
Nomination: undecided

[Baller 24]

Vote: Pierce

Nominate: Billups

[JordansBulls]

Vote: Penny
Nominate: Kemp

[Duhon2Lee42]

Is it possible to see the other 75? I just seen it.

[TheSheriff]

Vote Pierce

[TrueLAfan]

Vote: Connie Hawkins. It's a lot of "What-if," but the Hawk did enough to justify being selected here. Huge peak.
Nominate: Jack Sikma

Jack Sikma from 1979-1988
797 games, 17.0 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.1 spg, 1,.0 bpg, .473 fg%, .848 ft%
4 times Top 15 in MVP voting
2 times Top 10 in MVP voting
2nd team All-D in 1982

Doesn't miss game, scores well, terrific rebounder (17.0 rebound rate for that decade), great defender. High peak. Won a title (and averaged 16-15-2 in the finals).

The thing is that Sikma, like some other players, actually had a ton of things going against him. Things like:

Great players at his position that were often slightly better...and no third team All-NBA.
Here is which centers other than Sikma were in the top 10 of MVP voting from 1979 to 1988:

1979--Moses, Kareem; 1980--Kareem, Moses; 1981--Kareem, Moses, Parish; 1982--Moses, Parish, Kareem; 1983--Moses, Gilmore, Kareem; 1984--Kareem, Ruland, Moses; 1985--Moses, Kareem; 1986--Hakeem, Kareem, Moses; 1987--Hakeem, Moses; 1988--Hakeem.

So Sikma was pretty much never a top 2 C. He was never as good as Kareem or Moses or Hakeem. (Okay...rarely as good. Sikma was 9th in MVP voting to Kareem's 10th in 1982..but he was still behind Parish that year.) He was basically in the mix with Parish and Gilmore for most of those years. If there had been a third team All-NBA he would have more than a couple of selections in the early and mid-80s. I think that's an accurate description of his value. He was more or less as valuable as Gilmore (in Artis' NBA years) or Parish. That should be enough to have him nominated now, at least.

Semi-low FG%. People look at Sikma's FG% and think, "He's a C that shoots around 47%. Not good. But there's the other factors. For one thing, for a perimeter shooting big man, Sikma picked up fouls...and he was the best FT shooting C of all time. So his TS% is around .544, which is pretty good. It's similar to the TS% of players like Garnett or Ilgauskas. If the three had been incorporated into offenses earlier, Sikma would be more efficient as well.

Not a shot blocker. Sikma was a terrific defender, but he was a positional defender. He just dug in, put the elbows out, and battled to keep people out of the paint. Not flashy, but very effective.

Nice Guy that Looks Soft. So much of current player recognition is visual. Sikma had blond hair and terrible haircuts. He had a nice smile and was an articulate guy. You just didn't picture him as a bruising, tough sort of player. But he was. He used his elbows. He got position. He pushed and shoved with the best of them.

And then there's he other stuff. His jump shot had a release point so far back that it was, essentially, unblockable. And he hit those jumpers out to 20 feet with regularity. He was a nightmare matchup. He was the best free throwing shooting C of all time, one of the best perimeter shooting Cs of all time, one of the better passing Cs of all time, and never missed games. And averaged 17-11-3.5 for a decade, and got a ring to show for it.

[TheSheriff]

I just don't see Hawkins over Pierce. His ABL MVP was in a very weak league. The ABA, in its first year, was also weak. His NBA career is not as good as Pierce's and shorter. I don't think the hard luck part should really help him, i mean no one is nominating Len Bias.

[penbeast0]

The thing is that Sikma, like some other players, actually had a ton of things going against him. Things like:

And then there's he other stuff.

For example, his curly blonde perm that made him look like Big Orphan Annie:



Oh, and Duhon, there's another stickied thread with the whole top 100 list so far

[ronnymac2]

Vote: Pete Maravich

I'll go with Sikma. TLA swayed me with that one.

Nominate: Jack Sikma

[Roger Murdock]

Pistol, Kemp

[penbeast0]

Any Kemp fans that can make a reasoned argument as to why Kemp should go in over Sikma who seems to be a better player in just about every way?

[abcdef]

I was going to vote for Hawkins, but I've changed my mind and am going to vote for Paul Pierce. He's been a fine all-around player in this decade, put up fine numbers, had some playoff success early in his career (ECF one year) and has the ring and Finals MVP now. For some reason has been fairly under the radar for most of his career until last year, but he's been steadily productive this whole decade.

I think I will nominate Chris Mullin, for some reason he has been totally ignored, I'm not convinced by Sikma, Kemp, or Nance. He was a great shooter and all-around scorer, as well as a distributor, I know his stats are inflated by Nelly's high-pace system but we already have Alex English up there and I'm not sure that English is that much better than Mullin.

[shawngoat23]

Vote: Connie Hawkins
Nominate: Reggie Miller. I pulled his name out of a group that included Chauncey Billups and Ray Allen.

[penbeast0]

I'll add Mullin to my consideration list, his offensive peak was higher than either Reggie Miller or Ray Allen. Peak English was very comparable to peak Mullin, . . . but English did it for 9 years at that level while Mullin's peak was only about 5.

[TheSheriff]

Nominate Sikma

[penbeast0]

VOTES
Connie Hawkins 11
Paul Pierce 1111
Pete Maravich 11
Anfernee Hardaway 1

NOMINATIONS
Jack Sikma 111
Reggie Miller 1
Chris Mullin 1
Shawn Kemp 11
Chauncey Billups 1
Larry Nance 1