7 second shot clock

Harry10 · Post #1 » by **Harry10** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:10 pm

ever since the addition of Bibby and Horford, the Hawks line up just reminds me of the Suns in their recent prime.

Amare.... Horford
Marion... Josh
QRich.... Marvin
Joe....... Joe
Nash...... Bibby

Bibby is no Nash, but he is pretty close to his style.

i'm not a fan of the 7 second shot clock, but it seems like it is the best system for the personnel that the Hawks have.

td00 · Post #2 » by **td00** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:44 pm

Right now Harry, you gotta admin Marion didn't go through what Josh is producing. These guys are both exciting, but too many mental mistakes by Josh.
That Phoenix lineup was a threat every time out on the court. You can't honesly say that about the Hawks.

killbuckner · Post #3 » by **killbuckner** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:48 pm

You really just compared Horford to Amare on offense?

evildallas · Post #4 » by **evildallas** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:08 pm

While I think your comparison is a bit of a stretch . . . a quick strike offense would minimize the time that Josh gets to think about what he's doing. It's a novel thought, but probably a switch that couldn't be pulled off in the middle of the season.

NWO4Life · Post #5 » by **NWO4Life** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:28 pm

I do like the seven second clock idea. some comparisons might be off a bit but all in all we have a fast break offense that can thrive in the open court.

Open court style of play compliments athletic players and allows them to more easily exploit other teams lack of athleticism.

JoshB914 · Post #6 » by **JoshB914** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:04 pm

How are we supposed to get out in transition and run when we DON'T REBOUND ON DEFENSE?! This team needs to learn to crawl before they try to run.

dpaulh · Post #7 » by **dpaulh** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:49 pm

None of those comparisons make sense to me. We are worse at every position with those comps except for joe=joe. Actually, it isn't even fair to compare joe(then) vs. joe(now), he is a completely different player in the two scenarios.

Horford is no where near Amare(then)
Josh is no where near Marion(then), although he does have the talent to be
Marvin is not QRich(then)
Joe now is better, but has adapted a new style of backing down people into the lane instead of take the pass and pop the three
Bibby is no where near Nash(then), Nash is the prototypical PG for the 7 second shot clock

I will admit that it could be fun to watch, but I don't think our team could pull off a fast break style. We would throw the ball away a ton if anyone but bibby or joe had it in their hands.

LL Cool Scott · Post #8 » by **LL Cool Scott** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:52 am

Small problem, Harry - look at those names. We are significantly worse at each position except for Joe being Joe. Hilarious.

However, I do like your general idea of running because we're so athletic. At least we would be fun to watch. I can't stand watching this team go through the motions and mope around for most of the season.

Harry10 · Post #9 » by **Harry10** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:32 am

well for those of you who don't think the Hawks should run a 7 second shot clock offense, ....... huh, so what?... you think the Hawks should run a half court, grind it out offense???

maybe do what Houston or Orlando does and feed the post and have shooters around... maybe Horford can fill that roll???

or do a half court offense like what Cleveland does, with Lebron dominating the ball... maybe Joe can do that???

Horford isn't that great, but he is pretty decent at running the floor and husseling. Bibby isn't that great on defense, but he can shoot and pass. and maybe a fast offense will be easier on Joe, so that he won't go ISO so much and get beat up all game long.

johnny878 · Post #10 » by **johnny878** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:31 am

LL Cool Scott wrote:Small problem, Harry - look at those names. We are significantly worse at each position except for Joe being Joe. Hilarious.

However, I do like your general idea of running because we're so athletic. At least we would be fun to watch. I can't stand watching this team go through the motions and mope around for most of the season.

only significantly worse at pg and C really...

parson · Post #11 » by **parson** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:47 pm

Wow, just wow. We're "significantly worse" at those positions? Someone had better look at QRich's production before making such a claim. The REAL difference is Steve Nash, of course. We saw what Smoove and Marvelous look like when they play at a D'Antoni pace. They were great. And Horford would be a poor man's Stoudamire on offense but much better on defense -- Horford is great (I mean great) on the fly; its the best part of his offensive game. What galls me is that Joe would kill in that type of offense, instead of the isolation-based "offense" we try here. I know Steve Nashes don't grow on trees, but we're not even trying. Imagine Rajon Rondo in the open court for us - not in the half-court offense the C's play. Imagine Calderon. Imagine (even) Ridenour.

This might even be good for Bibby: it would minimize his defensive liabilities. But who can see Bibby running non-stop that way?

What's "hilarious" is the hatred here. Some of y'all can't see the talent on this team. They win and we call them great; they lose and we start calling them bums. The real question we should be asking is why such a talented and athletic team is playing poorly right now.

Why is this team dragging at this time?

LL Cool Scott · Post #12 » by **LL Cool Scott** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:24 pm

^ I used to agree with you. I used to think this team was really talented. I'm not convinced of that anymore though. I still think some of our players have the potential to be good, but it's still just potential at this point. Josh Smith has the talent, but not the mindset, to be an allstar. Marvin is nothing special, which hurts, but is true. And Al has totally leveled off this year. I don't think he'll ever put up the numbers I thought he was capable of. Bibby is getting older every year. Joe is the only legit all-star on this team, and he's certainly not a dominant player. Our bench is terrible outside of Flip. You can call it hate if you're offended, or you can call it realistic. Look at our record the past 30 games.

If I point out that the Suns are "significantly better" at all those positions, does that sound less negative?

conleyorbust · Post #13 » by **conleyorbust** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:53 pm

The other thing that we are neglecting is coaching. Even LL will agree with this (I think) and he isn't a big fan of point to coaching as a cause for winning/losing.

Mike D'Antoni snagged Nash and turned the Suns into a perrenial contender and one of the most popular teams in the league. If it were easy to do, other teams would have done it. Its not. Look at the Knicks, even without playing Curry or Marbury, they already have more wins than they did last season. It is an extremely hard system to coach. There is no way in hell that Mike Woodson could get our team to correctly execute a real run and gun system like D'Antoni's. Don't get me wrong, we could certainly pick up the pace, but I don't know if we'd be nearly as effective as we would be under a coach that really knows how to implement a system like that.

LL Cool Scott · Post #14 » by **LL Cool Scott** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:10 pm

^ I'd like to see that. I wanted us to go after Iavaroni a couple years back (apparently we didn't miss out on much). Mike Woodson is borderline (Please Use More Appropriate Word) and it looks like his team has quit on him, so I fully expect him to get fired this offseason unless we someone get to the second round and give the Celtics or Cavs a strong fight. It would be nice to get rid of the Woodson/Knight stench and try something new. It's not going to make this team a championship contender, but it would make watching this team more enjoyable.

dpaulh · Post #15 » by **dpaulh** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:21 pm

Can we drop this conversation? Now I am hearing that we are only significantly worse at C and PG... Ummm aren't those the two most important positions in the 7 second shot clock offense?

Don't forget that Woody would also have to put a lot more trust into his bench in this style as the starters would not be able to log the same minutes in an up and down style.

I agree that I would like to see something change, but I don't believe this is the answer, and there is absolutely no justification in comaring us to that Suns team. I will admit that I don't know what the answer is, but I am also not making millions to come up with that answer.

parson · Post #16 » by **parson** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:48 pm

LL, you're going by present production without considering talent. I agree the current makeup is not working. I repeat that we should ask "why" rather than assume they're bums. I've said many times I think that there is a disconnect between Billy Knight's dream and Woodson's. I think Knight wanted to build a team that ran on offense and played defense with loooong defenders. Woodson? I think he wants to run an offense based on a half-court attack, focusing on isolation plays. I think he's comfortable with Joe (only used the wrong way, I believe) and Bibby. I think he'd be more comfortable if Horford, Smoove and Marvelous were Laimbeer and Mahorn.

Rather than condemn our players, imagine if Knight had been allowed to trade for Calderon. Even Ridenour would have added a few minutes of good offense (we'd have to make allowances for his defense). No, I don't think that the running offense is best for Bibby, but I think he's the ONLY player that offense wouldn't help.

Exactly WHY would we want to focus on a half-court attack (like the one we're using right now), anyway?

johnny878 · Post #17 » by **johnny878** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:11 pm

dpaulh wrote:Can we drop this conversation? Now I am hearing that we are only significantly worse at C and PG... Ummm aren't those the two most important positions in the 7 second shot clock offense?

Don't forget that Woody would also have to put a lot more trust into his bench in this style as the starters would not be able to log the same minutes in an up and down style.

I agree that I would like to see something change, but I don't believe this is the answer, and there is absolutely no justification in comaring us to that Suns team. I will admit that I don't know what the answer is, but I am also not making millions to come up with that answer.

di antoni never used a deep bench with the suns.

johnny878 · Post #18 » by **johnny878** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:15 pm

LL Cool Scott wrote:^ I used to agree with you. I used to think this team was really talented. I'm not convinced of that anymore though. I still think some of our players have the potential to be good, but it's still just potential at this point. Josh Smith has the talent, but not the mindset, to be an allstar. Marvin is nothing special, which hurts, but is true. And Al has totally leveled off this year. I don't think he'll ever put up the numbers I thought he was capable of. Bibby is getting older every year. Joe is the only legit all-star on this team, and he's certainly not a dominant player. Our bench is terrible outside of Flip. You can call it hate if you're offended, or you can call it realistic. Look at our record the past 30 games.

If I point out that the Suns are "significantly better" at all those positions, does that sound less negative?

alot of hate on marvin...

He is pretty good. his main problem is that he plays with Joe Johnson who dominates the ball for 20 seconds of the shot clock everytime. When Joe was out and they were able to run the offense through marvin, he looked pretty darn good. getting to the line 20 times one game.

must suck to be marvin to be a team player on a team full of selfish players.

JoshB914 · Post #19 » by **JoshB914** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:31 pm

I agree that we should run more. But I really want to know how we can run-and-gun when we can't get a defensive rebound? How are we supposed to get out in transition when getting a simple rebound and throwing a nice outlet pass to Bibby is such a challenge?

The other funny thing is that we are one of the worst teams running the break that I have ever seen. I cringe every time we have a 2-on-1 break.

conleyorbust · Post #20 » by **conleyorbust** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:05 pm

JoshB914 wrote:I agree that we should run more. But I really want to know how we can run-and-gun when we can't get a defensive rebound? How are we supposed to get out in transition when getting a simple rebound and throwing a nice outlet pass to Bibby is such a challenge?

Just to point out, the first season Nash was in PHX (62 wins, best offense since the 96 Bulls), they were a worse defensive rebounding team than we are now... pretty significantly. They grabbed about 68% of the opponents' missed shots and we grab about 71% this season.

The other funny thing is that we are one of the worst teams running the break that I have ever seen. I cringe every time we have a 2-on-1 break.

This is why I said coaching was such a big factor. I remember back when D'Antoni was in PHX and people were wondering why everyone didn't just "get out and run" and one of the Phoenix players came out and said that there is a pretty big playbook just for transition. Its not just the point guard who has to know his stuff on the break, all the breaks are choreographed... who fills what lane, who acts as a decoy, etc. Thats why other teams don't do it and thats why a moron like Marcus Banks coudln't see the floor even if he had some talent and athleticism.