Outsider's Observations of your team

[BigFlorida]

I've watched the last several Thunder games on NBA League Pass. Figured I'd share my observations.

Kevin Durant is an incredible scorer. Just incredible. Right now he's just on a ridiculous tear and if he keeps this up and improves he could end up being one of the alltime great shooters in history. The percentages he is shooting FG%, 3P% and FT% are insane when you consider he's only 20 years old. He's very very special. His defense needs a ton of work. He shows flashes of "superstar" clutchness. And when games are close, he seems to have that extra gear where he can take it to another level and take over a game. He's a lot like Paul Pierce in that regard. Have you guys noticed that when the game is cut to a "competitive" level like 10 points, he seems to just GO OFF? Seems he's done it in the last 4 games I've watched. And it makes me wonder how good that kid is going to be when his teammates are actually capable and every game is considered "winable"... I saw that kid do a turnaround fade away prayor of a 3 point shot against the Hornets to tie it... only to watch his team's pathetic defense to allow Chris Paul to make a bucket in the paint to win it by 2. Durant's going to be a god of this league.

I really like Jeff Green. He's a solid player. He does the dirty work. He's not a bad shooter. He gets rebounds, plays moderately good defense... and he can finish at the hoop. Very athletic. He'd shine in an up-tempo fast-break offense, I think. I like him a lot. But... I don't really know what you guys are going to do. Durant was nowhere near as good when his mentally (Please Use More Appropriate Word) superiors were playing him at shooting guard... and I can't see Jeff Green being a long-term solution at power forward. I also think it's completely moronic to assume you'd put your 2nd best player on the bench. No bones about it... he plays the same position as Durant and that's a problem. He isn't a shooting guard... he isn't a power forward... he's an exceptional small forward playing on a team that has a "phenom" small forward.

Russell Westbrook.... I don't see it. I hate his game. I know that's probably blasphemy to you guys. Maybe he's just having a bad stretch, but I absolutely do not see it with this kid. I know he's young... but he's a ballhog who forces shots and pads stats. He's NOT a point guard. He's an undersized shooting guard who is forcing things. He might be the 3rd most talented player on the team, but I doubt the Thunder would ever be a capable team with this guy pretending to be a point guard. He's not a good shooter... and yet he chucks it up constantly. It's extremely frustrating to watch. It's interesting, because watching him is so maddening... and then I check the box score and it APPEARS he actually had a good game. I don't know guys... maybe it's just me... but I feel the same way about a guy like Randy Foye. I'm not a fan of undersized SG's who shoot 40% and chuck the ball at every opportunity.

The rest of the team - total garbage. Collison's a bum. Kristic seems to hit some shots, but come on.

I'll be following this team closely, because Durant is otherwordly. But I think at some point if this team ever wants to be serious, it might have to face some tough decisions. Sadly, I think they'll have to trade Jeff Green (especially if they end up drafting a legitimate PF in the draft)... and I'm thinking they might also want to consider trading Westbrook while his stock is still high (i don't see him putting up those inflated numbers on a good team...)

[Big_Mac79]

The rest of the team - total garbage. Collison's a bum. Kristic seems to hit some shots, but come on.

Thanks for the insight
I'm so glad you were able to point out we only have two players surrounded by garbage
Especially that our #4 pick in last years draft is crap
Your opinion is greatly appreciated
Thanks again

[BigFlorida]

He's not "crap"... I just hate his game and don't think it's conducive to winning. He's not a point guard... and he's too small to be an effective shooting guard. Even the "best of the best" at this style (Allen Iverson) can't win.

Westbrook is valuable... so is Randy Foye... but i wouldn't want either one running my team. I'd suggest packaging Westbrook and Jeff Green with some big expiring contracts and going after a guy like Bosh or Amare depending on who you end up drafting.

[chrbal]

wow, 3 players and then he got bored. I'll add mine and avoid the 1st 3 since such insight has already been made. They'll be short, since I'm short on time.

Krstic- He was a good signing for this team. Solid big, who just needs some time to get a feel for playing on this team.

Collison- Garbage pail type big who might be better off with a trade to the East. I'd hang onto him though, unless its a good deal.

Mason- expiring contract, who can't seem to hit free throws anywhere. I wouldn't bring him back.

Smith- Solid veteran who will most likely sign elsewhere next season. I wouldn't cut him unless he asks to be cut.

Watson- OK backup PG who wouldn't get much playing time on a good team.

Wilkens- Crap, utter crap.

Weaver- Solid, young guy who needs more time to develop.

Atkins- Veteran PG, who was only traded for so the Thunder could get another pick. Good move, outdated player.

Swift- Can't get healthy, but who didn't know that. Part of the teams big need...bigs.

Thabo- Not really sure.

DJ White- Incomplete. Guys been hurt all season, what do you want?

Rose- Amazing veteran. Hes the central key to all Thunder wins from here on out.....honestly, make him an assistant coach...they'll be glad they did.

[slick_watts]

Russell Westbrook.... I don't see it. I hate his game. I know that's probably blasphemy to you guys. Maybe he's just having a bad stretch, but I absolutely do not see it with this kid. I know he's young... but he's a ballhog who forces shots and pads stats. He's NOT a point guard. He's an undersized shooting guard who is forcing things. He might be the 3rd most talented player on the team, but I doubt the Thunder would ever be a capable team with this guy pretending to be a point guard. He's not a good shooter... and yet he chucks it up constantly. It's extremely frustrating to watch. It's interesting, because watching him is so maddening... and then I check the box score and it APPEARS he actually had a good game. I don't know guys... maybe it's just me... but I feel the same way about a guy like Randy Foye. I'm not a fan of undersized SG's who shoot 40% and chuck the ball at every opportunity.

if you've been watching the thunder the last while then i can agree with you. westbrook's really been hogging the ball and putting up some terrible shots. the worst is when he shoots 3's..

there's no denying his talent. he's great with the dribble and gets to the basket with ease, though he has some trouble finishing. he actually is pretty good passing the ball but is inconsistent as far as pg instincts go.

the thing with westbrook is that he definitely has the length, strength and speed to guard PG's and SG's so if it doesn't work out for him as a PG he should be able to play the two no problem.

[BigFlorida]

chrbal... it wasn't that I got bored after the first 3.... it's that everyone else on the team is basically irrelevant. I haven't seen Sefalosha enough to form an opinion, obviously... but everyone other than Durant/Green/Westbrook could be replaced tomorrow with NBDL players and I don't think it would make much of a difference. Kristic hits some shots. Collison gets some boards. Weaver will be playing in Europe in a couple years. Watson is sometimes infuriating to watch. It's almost like I think the team would be better off just handing the ball to Durant down the stretch and getting out of the way. They are all terrible. Terrible, terrible, terrible.

slick_watts... I'm not just feeling Westbrook's game. He's undeniably talented... but there isn't much of a successful track record in this league for 6-3 40% shooting guards who need the ball to create their own offense learning how to play point guard correctly or leading their team to any sort of real success.

[BernardC]

can we somehow get a defensive pass first pg (billups?) and let Westbrook be the sg?
I dont see many of such in this league though

[slick_watts]

slick_watts... I'm not just feeling Westbrook's game. He's undeniably talented... but there isn't much of a successful track record in this league for 6-3 40% shooting guards who need the ball to create their own offense learning how to play point guard correctly or leading their team to any sort of real success.

many guards have come into the league and shot a low % their rookie year and went on to reign themselves in and have successful careers. allen iverson shot 41% his rookie season. chauncey billups is a career 41% shooter and his rookie season was undeniably worse than the one westbrook is having. even a guy like chris paul shot only 43% his first two seasons. deron williams shot 42% his rookie year. even ben gordon, who is a much more gifted outside shooter, shot 41% his rookie year.

i'm not saying westbrook will be better, as good, or worse than any of those guys. the point is that rookie guards, especially guards like westbrook who haven't been playing their position long and are 'tweeners', tend to shoot poorly the first couple years of their careers. in westbrook's case, it's very encouraging to me how he gets a lot of opportunities near the rim. he has no outside jumper, but he already draws fouls reasonably and is great from the line. there's a lot to like about his game offensively, great potential. one of the problems is that both of OKC's SG's are even WORSE shooters than westbrook arguably (mason definitely) and he's kind of filling that role a bit even though he's not that great himself shooting. i think it's extremely premature to write off westbrook offensively, especially when he's doing a lot of other things on the court (rebound, defend).

[KD_Stan]

I am a die hard OKC fan and have seen every single game this season, and I pretty much have to agree with the threadstarter on this one. regarding westbrook, not necessarily on green.

With green, you can get away with him at PF as long as you have a defensive presence at the center position. Thats why losing out on Chandler hurt so much because he would have been absolutely the perfect fit for this team. Granted green is not a natural PF but he is good enough and as much matchup problems as he may have guarding the premier PF's in the league, he does make up for it by creating headaches for them on the other end.

Now when it comes to westbrook, I have absolutely had enough. Yes he is young and yes he is a presence on the floor with the little things he does, but as long as this is the guy that we have initiating, facilitating, and running the offense we will go nowhere. He simply doesn't have "it" as a PG. He doesn't have the instincts to ever be a PG and the type of player that will EVER make anyone better. I would actually argue that he is what has really held this team back this year. He is completely out of control and doesn't have the IQ or presence of mind to grasp the concept that his #1 priority is to first and foremost set up the amazing offensive weapons he has around him in KD and Green. Any positive contributions on offense by Durant and green come IN SPITE of westbrook, not BECAUSE OF westbrook. He is actually an obstacle. He has maybe the premier offensive talent in the league on his team in KD yet he is too dumb to realize it. I cant think of more than 5 possessions in the last 5 games where he has assisted on, or even passed the ball to durant. His whole game in the halfcourt is simply this: dribble around in a frantic manner trying to see where he can charge into the lane, all the while ignoring durant as he stands around, then putting his head down ignoring his teammates and charging into the lane out of control which ALWAYS results in one of three things 1) an offensive foul 2) out of control heave at the basket that is nowhere close to going in 3) turnover

If this team had a slightly above average starting PG we would have won at least 7-8 more games this year.

[KD_Stan]

Also let me add that most people from the outside looking in look at OKC and say that green is the one that eventually has to be traded because he and KD play the same position in the long run and one of them has to go. I disagree. Green and KD have proven they are an adequate frontcourt and that they play well together. It is actually westbrook that needs to be used as trade bait to bring us a third star because we cannot have this guy as our PG if we ever want to be serious contenders. And we need to pull the trigger now while his value and reputation are high around the league. Because soon, the novelty will wear off and the rest of the league will catch onto him. And no, he is NOT gonna be able to scoot over to the SG cause he is too much of a tweener for that position.

[Clangus]

I was actually thinking the same thing about Westbrook in the Lakers game....
I really like his potential, but his stats are padded - almost everygame he sneaks in 2-3 FG's in garbage time. Im getting frustrated with him taking shots down teh stretch when he cant shoot and we have KD on the team. I hope he realises he is 2nd or 3rd option and stops trying to be "the man".

I dont think he's garbage, but he has been frustrating the **** out of me lately.

[Clangus]

Oh chrbal - Watson is a serviceable THIRD point guard. Not a backup - he can make a few ok plays, but if the game is close get him out of the building because he will turnm it over, take an ill advised jumper or foul a 3pt shooter.

[slick_watts]

With green, you can get away with him at PF as long as you have a defensive presence at the center position. Thats why losing out on Chandler hurt so much because he would have been absolutely the perfect fit for this team. Granted green is not a natural PF but he is good enough and as much matchup problems as he may have guarding the premier PF's in the league, he does make up for it by creating headaches for them on the other end.

agreed.

Yes he is young and yes he is a presence on the floor with the little things he does, but as long as this is the guy that we have initiating, facilitating, and running the offense we will go nowhere. He simply doesn't have "it" as a PG. He doesn't have the instincts to ever be a PG and the type of player that will EVER make anyone better.

the same was said about players like billups when they were starting out, or even rajon rondo on boston. westbrook is only 20 years old, he hasn't been playing pg for a long time. it's extremely premature to say he's never going to 'get it' as a PG; especially for a guy with his physical talent. you don't throw that aside just because he hasn't grasped everything in his rookie season. i don't think many people remember how bad kevin durant and jeff green were at times last year; hoisting up terrible shots, making bad decisions, playing selfishly. westbrook's got skills, it's unlikely that he will not improve upon this year.

He has maybe the premier offensive talent in the league on his team in KD yet he is too dumb to realize it. I cant think of more than 5 possessions in the last 5 games where he has assisted on, or even passed the ball to durant. His whole game in the halfcourt is simply this: dribble around in a frantic manner trying to see where he can charge into the lane, all the while ignoring durant as he stands around, then putting his head down ignoring his teammates and charging into the lane out of control which ALWAYS results in one of three things 1) an offensive foul 2) out of control heave at the basket that is nowhere close to going in 3) turnover

this is something that scott brooks has to take care of as coach. i disagree with you somewhat here; i think that westbrook has shown some value in the half court offense, especially earlier in the season. i think the entire team has gotten away from some things the last few games since the all star break and lots of guys are making bad plays in the half court. the real difficulty here is that with no post scoring whatsoever, not even a threat, it's difficult to really run a traditional half court offense. again, i think really premature to write off westbrook here. there have been plenty of PG/SG who have come into the league that fit these criteria you've given and went on to play really well once they settled down.

If this team had a slightly above average starting PG we would have won at least 7-8 more games this year

i think the bench and the SG position has been much more of a problem. C to a lesser extent.

It is actually westbrook that needs to be used as trade bait to bring us a third star because we cannot have this guy as our PG if we ever want to be serious contenders. And we need to pull the trigger now while his value and reputation are high around the league. Because soon, the novelty will wear off and the rest of the league will catch onto him. And no, he is NOT gonna be able to scoot over to the SG cause he is too much of a tweener for that position.

this kind of reactionary thinking is what can really ruin a franchise. westbrook has a positive reputation because he obviously has tremendous physical talent and at 20 already does a lot of things well (draw fouls, free throws, fast break, rebound, man defense somewhat). teams would be delighted to get him because teams understand that you can't teach that kind of talent. the way westbrook plays and his play as a PG (or where ever he ends up) can be influenced by good coaching and game planning.

last year there were a lot of sonics fans frustrated with durant (comparisons to jamal crawford) because of his terrible shot selection and lacking impact on the game outside of scoring. one guy on a board i went to would compare jeff green to ryan gomes, ok at everything good for nothing. obviously, given their year in the league and work ethic both of these players have developed and progressed. to think russell westbrook, who might arguably have a greater work ethic than either durant or green, will not do the same is pretty obstinate view. players with westbrook's physical talent don't come around often, you can't just trade that away so soon.

[KD_Stan]

Slick, I will agree that my opinions are reactionary, and I am being rough on westbrook. But I think it stems from my frustration at the fact that he has tools that could potentially make him one of the elite PG's just because he can do the little intangible things few other PG's can. He is a presence on the court and even when the ball's not in his hands he finds a way to get a deflection, offensive rebound, a steal consistently. If all this was coupled with any competent playmaking ability, he would be incredible and we would be so much better. Unfortunately I am not seeing that PG gene in him. I don't understand how anyone can go from what he is now, with his terrible instincts and habits, to an adequate facilitator of an offense.

I will say this though, he has something in him that leaves me hope that he will potentially prove me wrong.

I hope to god I can come in here next season and laugh at myself for these posts. I would love for westbrook to force-feed me an entire batallion of crows.

We'll see.

[slick_watts]

Unfortunately I am not seeing that PG gene in him. I don't understand how anyone can go from what he is now, with his terrible instincts and habits, to an adequate facilitator of an offense.

chauncey billups is more or less the poster boy for this. did you see him when he came into the league?

not sure what your experience is watching basketball, pro and college, but very, very few 20 year old PG's can come into the nba as great facilitators.

[Clangus]

russell westbrook, who might arguably have a greater work ethic than either durant or green,

Thats defiantly untrue. Westbrook might have a great work ethic, but i honestly don't believe that anyone (in the league even....maybe Kobe) has a better work ethic then Durant. Green is also a gym rat as evidenced by his improvement in his jumper his strength and overall playing ability. What I will say, is that as a fan base we are extremely blessed to have out core 3 guys all being obsessive workers.


Westbrook, is on the knife edge right now IMO. With the right coaching he has the talent and skill set to be a DWade type player, but he could also go the other way and become a ball dominating black hole with no Jump shot. He needs some real direction from the coaching staff NOW, his connfidence is inflated compared to his skill and if left unchecked he could fail to meet his (considerable) potential.

$0.02

[BernardC]

When does Westbrook reach his full pg potential though?
By then are these core of three still playing for the Thunder?

Billups took quite a long time to mature to be the pg that he is if I remember correctly.

[Clangus]

When does Westbrook reach his full pg potential though?
By then are these core of three still playing for the Thunder?

Billups took quite a long time to mature to be the pg that he is if I remember correctly.

I think as far as being a late bloomer Billups (and Nash) were anomalies. Westbrook will reach his potential within the next 2 years IMO (he makes alot of mistakes, but look at his number, and compare to all other 20yr old rookies PGS in history. He is in elite company. Almost any-other year, he wins ROTY).

Yes the core will still be together. Remember that they are all really young still,I think Green is the old mand and he is 22-23 years old.

[wizkid27]

Good thoughts. One thing I have to say is... it's hard to question any of Westbrook's decision-making abilities when the guy backing him up is Watson. Every time the guy gets the ball these days, I cringe.

[Clangus]

Good thoughts. One thing I have to say is... it's hard to question any of Westbrook's decision-making abilities when the guy backing him up is Watson. Every time the guy gets the ball these days, I cringe.

HAHAHHAbI second that that motion