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Nash - Magic - Stockton

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Never Fear 33 Is Here
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Re: Nash - Magic - Stockton 

Post#21 » by Never Fear 33 Is Here » Sun Mar 1, 2009 10:35 am

anklebreaker702 wrote:
85star wrote:WTF? Seriously wtf?

This guy has no idea what he's talking about.
Sure I'm a Stockton fan and do think he's the greatest PG to play the game. I accept Magic is the better player but he's my 6th man, a true PG doesn't win finals MVP in his rookie year playing center.
This statement is way off the mark. Don't attack Magic's versatility to back your argument. He was forced to play center only in that 1 game & he didn't play center the entire game. He had 42 points 15 boards & 7 assists from playing all 5 positions, That is why he is considered a great player & not just a good 1. Plus he has more rings on 1 FINGER than those guys put together.


Fixed..................and ouch. :(
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Re: Nash - Magic - Stockton 

Post#22 » by dantian » Sun Mar 1, 2009 12:04 pm

Stockton is the most steady PG, much more versatile regarding on-court roles than Nash. He is definitely a much better defender and can be extremely effective off-the-ball on offense which Nash is almost useless at. Coach would have a lot more variaty of strategies to play with.

I truly believe that the team would be a lock for the finals this year if hypothetically Stockton of the same age were to replace Nash on the team without the eye injury to Amare. Well, maybe plus Sloan as the coach too. Shaq/Amare/JRich/LB/Stockton (of 34 years old) would be much better than the Malone/Stockton team that lost to Bulls in 6 games in finals!
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Re: Nash - Magic - Stockton 

Post#23 » by tsherkin » Mon Mar 2, 2009 12:01 am

dantian wrote:can be extremely effective off-the-ball on offense which Nash is almost useless at.


When has this been true? Nash is one of the filthiest shooters in league history, be it catch-and-shoot or off the dribble. He's best used on-ball because he can dribble penetrate and create for others, but that's not the same thing. Stockton's actually noticeably LESS valuable off-ball on offense because he was never as elite a shooter as is Nash.
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Re: Nash - Magic - Stockton 

Post#24 » by Biff » Mon Mar 2, 2009 12:40 am

I love it when tsherk owns people. haha

He's done it to me a few times too. Dude knows his ****.
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Re: Nash - Magic - Stockton 

Post#25 » by 85star » Mon Mar 2, 2009 3:44 am

anklebreaker702 wrote:This statement is way off the mark. Don't attack Magic's versatility to back your argument. He was forced to play center only in that 1 game & he didn't play center the entire game. He had 42 points 15 boards & 7 assists from playing all 5 positions, That is why he is considered a great player & not just a good 1. Plus he has more rings on 1 hand than those guys put together.


I could find the quote from Magic where he says that Stockon is better at leading a team and passing the ball. However that's not really the point here. Magic is definitely one of the greatest, and I'm not trying to say otherwise. All i'm saying is if I was picking my alltime team I wouldn't be looking for scoring or rebounding from my PG.

And just a quick look at Nash and Stock's peaks.
Season Age Tm Lg G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
2005-06 31 PHO NBA 79 79 35.4 6.8 13.4 .512 1.9 4.3 .439 3.3 3.5 .921 0.6 3.6 4.2 10.5 0.8 0.2 3.5 1.5 18.8
1989-90 27 UTA NBA 78 78 37.4 6.1 11.8 .514 0.6 1.4 .416 4.5 5.5 .819 0.7 1.9 2.6 14.5 2.7 0.2 3.5 3.0 17.2
There's a clear winner here.
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Re: Nash - Magic - Stockton 

Post#26 » by dantian » Mon Mar 2, 2009 12:46 pm

tsherkin wrote:
dantian wrote:can be extremely effective off-the-ball on offense which Nash is almost useless at.


When has this been true? Nash is one of the filthiest shooters in league history, be it catch-and-shoot or off the dribble. He's best used on-ball because he can dribble penetrate and create for others, but that's not the same thing. Stockton's actually noticeably LESS valuable off-ball on offense because he was never as elite a shooter as is Nash.


1. Pull out your tapes to witness that Nash has rarely been good at catch-n-shoot this whole year. Maybe he intentionally did so to sabotage Porter who wanted him off the ball more with his original plan. :evil: In any case, Nash mostly scores with stop-n-shoot.

2. Whether he is bad at it or just doesn't want to do it, the result is Nash dominates the ball too much that cause two problems. For one, and most importantly, he spends way too much energy on offense so that he has to save himself a lot on defense. Secondly, it makes our offense way too monotone so that good teams like Spurs and NO easily kill us by neutralizing Nash. With Nash ineffective, we yet don't have viable alternatives as we don't practise and use anything other than Nash-dominating-ball offense. We lose when it counts as witnessed under DA.

In summary, it's fact that Stockton was used a lot off-the-ball with great results for Sloan's Jazzs. Nash doesn't have or display this quality, making the team he is dominating on easier to beat for the opponents. :(
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Re: Nash - Magic - Stockton 

Post#27 » by tsherkin » Mon Mar 2, 2009 9:13 pm

dantian wrote:
1. Pull out your tapes to witness that Nash has rarely been good at catch-n-shoot this whole year. Maybe he intentionally did so to sabotage Porter who wanted him off the ball more with his original plan. :evil: In any case, Nash mostly scores with stop-n-shoot.


I haven't seen Nash being put in position to get a good catch-and-shoot opportunity most of the year, I see him getting a lot of bail-out Js and stuff, but I've never really seen him being moved around pin-down action or cutting across a midscreen for quick Js, etc. He's never been used like Steve Kerr, it's usually "bail-out 3 with a defender on him 3 feet behind the line." That's not a good estimation of a player's worth in that role.

2. Whether he is bad at it or just doesn't want to do it, the result is Nash dominates the ball too much that cause two problems. For one, and most importantly, he spends way too much energy on offense so that he has to save himself a lot on defense. Secondly, it makes our offense way too monotone so that good teams like Spurs and NO easily kill us by neutralizing Nash.


Eh, the Suns are fine with their offense, the problem is that they have a couple of gaping defensive holes that can be exploited and, in tandem, they are troublesome to overcome. The Suns aren't really in trouble offensively, certainly not with J-Rich and Shaq on the team. The problems against SAS last year were that Shaq, Barbosa and Giricek played like crap. Nash not hitting 3s well and Amare shooting a relatively pedestrian 48.5% FG were also problems. The Suns were "stopped," but it wasn't the result of the way San Antonio handled Nash, it was a confluence of factors that affected the team. That probably wouldn't happen this year given Shaq's much improved mobility and the improved shooting on the team. Now, could they stop San Antonio, well, that's something else. But if the team was running a stead diet of SSOS at the Spurs, I think they'd be generally a lot better off than they were last season.

In summary, it's fact that Stockton was used a lot off-the-ball with great results for Sloan's Jazzs. Nash doesn't have or display this quality, making the team he is dominating on easier to beat for the opponents. :(


Stockton hit set Js, but not much different than the ones Nash hits off of the pick-and-roll. His major contributions off-ball were screens, but that was the design of the offense. Remember too, Stockton wasn't a terribly significant scorer and he actually choked it up pretty badly in the Finals both years, so I hardly think he counts as a useful example here.

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