ImageImageImageImageImage

Hawks @ Wizards (3/2)

Moderators: montestewart, LyricalRico, nate33

hands11
Banned User
Posts: 31,171
And1: 2,444
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: Hawks @ Wizards (3/2) 

Post#21 » by hands11 » Tue Mar 3, 2009 2:39 pm

WizarDynasty wrote:tapscotts an idiot, he should be developing NY point guard skills and defending points since nick is going to playing with arenas in the line up. Instead of having nick score every night, he should have been developing Nick's cerebral game by having him play point and initiate the offense. Force nick to improve his ball handling skills under pressure and guard really fast point guards since we know arenas doesn't want to. Nick should be doing everything that deshaun did and deshaun guarded point guards with Arenas on the floor. Tapscott can't get this concept through this head which is sad. Dom is nice and fill nicely defending s/g and s/f and good complement at the s/f spot with arenas. We should be developing Nick to defend the p/g and s/g so that NY is an asset to us when Arenas is on the floor. Critt is great at the point but Nick has just as much potential guarding p/g as Critt and making N1 defend p/g's now will make him that much more valuable with Ny, Dom, and arenas line up. Critt will be a good p/g..but nick has many intangilbles that take years to develop that Critt doesn't have. We really needed to develop NY on ball defense to relieve arenas on defense against quick point guards and allow arenas use his size advantage on offense. NY is alot better next to arenas than Critt if N1 can learn to guard p/gs better than arenas just as deshaun is better at guarding p/gs. NY will give us more than deshaun on offense and forcing N1 to start at point guard will force N1 develop to increase dramatically on the non shooting aspect of the game. Maybe a better coach will see this relationship since tapscott can't. Yes DOm is in our longterm plans..but the fact that we aren't developing N1 point guard skills when we know arenas is a undersized s/g is absolutely incomprehensible. Dom is developing as a good point forward but had we been developing nick to play p/g like Hughes all this time, N1 would look great too. Blame Grunfeld and Tapscott for not making N1 closer to a p/g on defense and offense and not forcing N1 to develop into a more cerebral player instead of "instant offense off the bench which is what they seem him as now and are completely wasting one of the center pieces of what our dynasty would be with N1 defending the point and running the point with arenas on the floor. Critt starting on even getting minutes at the point..but Caron is never going to be fast enough to guard points guards...The entire season, Tapscott should have been forcing nick to make his feet faster by guarding point guards...but he has wasted those minutes on Mike James. Had Tapscott had his head on straight, he would have developed Nick into p/g s/g to complement arenas on defense. Nick's future with the wiz is to play an improve version of Stevenson next to arenas. DMAC future is at the s/g s/f spot next to to arenas. Crit is best served backing up arenas and Nick. Hopefully Tapscott allows Nick to focus more on passing and defending points guards so that he can work well with arenas and his ability to defend point guards better than arenas will make him an asset next to arenas on the court. Let's hope tapscott realizes this soon rather than wasting away our 16th pick and a years worth of loosing. AGain, have nick focus less on shooting and more on defending the point guards and point guard ball handling skills. Right now, nick's handle is very poor, he has a very slow dribble that is very high off the ground. Whenever nick looses the ball very easily when nudged because his dribble is so high off the ground and nick doesn't have a rapid low center of gravity power dribble like Critt. so its going to be hard for Young to burst pass point guards. Having NY defend and go against point guards is the best way to develop NY from here on out. NY best role should be what larry hughes was next to arenas. Dom is better defending the s/f spot. Have NY improve his p/g defense skills and make him develop p/g handles. I would have NY starting at p/g before i would waste minutes on MIke James.


Couldn't get past the first few lines. You think Tapps can dev Nick Young into a PG ? Not likely. At best on 6 years he will be a Hughes type PG but that isn't going to be happening this year. The kid is not PG material at all. He has no interest in doing that. That's as clear as it can be.

You would be luckie if you got him to do what i was asking for which was to learn to spot up shoot from the 3 line more. Tapps is no idiot. Actually, I'd say the only clear idiots are the ones calling him an idiot. Best you can do with Nick this year is to get him to be more consistent on his shot, his focus, and his D. You may be able to get him to stop playing black top ball. I've got a new name for Nick.

N1on5

Goals for N1on5 would be to get him playing more of a team game. He thinks he is Gil. He needs to think more like Roger Mason with better handles that he can turn to in a pinch.

Nick has fallen behind the 2nd round player that was drafted his same year. DMAC. He is the worst of our younger players in my mind. Since DMAC, Crit, Blatche and McGee all seem to be progressing, I think NYs problem is Nick's. Light hasn't gone on yet. We still have 20+ games to make that happen.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 70,074
And1: 22,488
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Hawks @ Wizards (3/2) 

Post#22 » by nate33 » Tue Mar 3, 2009 3:13 pm

I think WizarDynasty makes an interesting point in his unnecessarily long and repetitive post.

It may actually help Nick Young's development quite a bit to make him to play PG. It'll force him to get into a mindset of running the offense and setting up his teammates. I also think that Young might to a fine job defending point guards if he puts his mind to it. I don't necessarily agree that Young will be better than Arenas at defending PG's, but it can't hurt for them to be interchangable defensively like Arenas and Hughes were.

Don't get me wrong, I don't in any way believe that Young can ever be a true PG. But in this throwaway season, maybe the best way to develop Young's SG skills is to play him at PG.
JWizmentality
RealGM
Posts: 14,099
And1: 5,121
Joined: Nov 21, 2004
Location: Cosmic Totality
   

Re: Hawks @ Wizards (3/2) 

Post#23 » by JWizmentality » Tue Mar 3, 2009 3:41 pm

nate33 wrote:I think WizarDynasty makes an interesting point in his unnecessarily long and repetitive post.


:falloff:
miller31time
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 27,575
And1: 2,141
Joined: Jul 25, 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
     

Re: Hawks @ Wizards (3/2) 

Post#24 » by miller31time » Tue Mar 3, 2009 6:30 pm

1. Crittenton needs to start. There is absolutely no reason (besides being a "veteran", of course) that Mike James should be starting and getting consistent minutes while Javaris rots on the bench.

2. I don't want to see Nick Young at point guard, even in an experiment scenario. I want him to get consistent minutes, whether he plays well or not...whether he makes tons of mistakes or not...whether he's on fire or ice cold - give him 20-25 minutes per game consistently and let him learn the best way he knows how.

3. Ok....last time....MCGEE NEEDS MORE MINUTES AND A CONSISTENT ROLE!!!!!!!!!!! WE'RE 1-185, I THINK WE CAN AFFORD IT!!!!!!!!!!......there, that's it. Never again will those words by typed by this poster.
fishercob
RealGM
Posts: 13,922
And1: 1,571
Joined: Apr 25, 2002
Location: Tenleytown, DC

Re: Hawks @ Wizards (3/2) 

Post#25 » by fishercob » Tue Mar 3, 2009 6:39 pm

nate33 wrote:I think WizarDynasty makes an interesting point in his unnecessarily long and repetitive post.

It may actually help Nick Young's development quite a bit to make him to play PG. It'll force him to get into a mindset of running the offense and setting up his teammates. I also think that Young might to a fine job defending point guards if he puts his mind to it. I don't necessarily agree that Young will be better than Arenas at defending PG's, but it can't hurt for them to be interchangable defensively like Arenas and Hughes were.

Don't get me wrong, I don't in any way believe that Young can ever be a true PG. But in this throwaway season, maybe the best way to develop Young's SG skills is to play him at PG.


Square peg, round hole. We knew from Nick's college stats that he was a scorer and little else on offense. I cannot imagine that forcing him into a ball handler role would make him a better player.

miller's right. Critt has a chance to be as good as AD in his prime (or close) as a 3rd gaurd/backup PG. He should be getting all the minutes he can handle right now. Every minute James plays at Critt's expense is a waste.
"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way."
— Steve Martin
fishercob
RealGM
Posts: 13,922
And1: 1,571
Joined: Apr 25, 2002
Location: Tenleytown, DC

Re: Hawks @ Wizards (3/2) 

Post#26 » by fishercob » Tue Mar 3, 2009 6:46 pm

miller31time wrote:
3. Ok....last time....MCGEE NEEDS MORE MINUTES AND A CONSISTENT ROLE!!!!!!!!!!! WE'RE 1-185, I THINK WE CAN AFFORD IT!!!!!!!!!!......there, that's it. Never again will those words by typed by this poster.


I heard from a friend last week who had just gotten off the phone with a former player/ front office professional who is very familiar with the Wizards. He says that McGee is a shoe-in future all-star -- the kind of player that takes you to the conference finals, if not further. He says that for the life of him, he cannot figure out why McGee isn't getting consistent big minutes, and why Songaila -- who is a situational role player on a top-level team -- continues to get so much burn.
"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way."
— Steve Martin
WizarDynasty
Veteran
Posts: 2,597
And1: 272
Joined: Oct 23, 2003

Re: Hawks @ Wizards (3/2) 

Post#27 » by WizarDynasty » Tue Mar 3, 2009 6:50 pm

I've seen Young makes some great passes. I think the problem is that Tapscott and EG aren't pushing him to be a hybrid p/g s/g..which Nick would flourish. Right now he is only rewarded for scoring and if he isn't scoring, he doesn't get playing time. I foresee that with the right coach giving him minutes for being able to defend at the p/g spot as well as create easy opportunities for others on offense. NIck potential to guard p/gs on defense along with his potential to be a great spot of shooter once arenas drives makes more valuable than caron since caron can't guard p/gs and forces Arenas to p/g's exclusively if Dom is also on the court. So a front court of DOM, Butler, and Arenas forces arenas to always guard the point on defense. A line up of DOM, Young, and Arenas allows arenas to possible guard the s/g while Young guards the p/g giving boosting defense and not having much drop off offensively.
Having arenas guard p/g's exclusively when we know that arenas had hughes and D.S. guard p/gs shows why these line ups are important.
If Caron had the ability to effectively guard p/g's like a true s/g should, then we wouldn't have a problems with Arenas not "wanting to guard p/gs"
Build your team w/5 shooters using P. Pierce Form deeply bent hips and lower back arch at same time b4 rising into shot. Elbow never pointing to the ground! Good teams have an engine player that shoot volume (2000 full season) at 50 percent.Large Hands
fishercob
RealGM
Posts: 13,922
And1: 1,571
Joined: Apr 25, 2002
Location: Tenleytown, DC

Re: Hawks @ Wizards (3/2) 

Post#28 » by fishercob » Tue Mar 3, 2009 6:54 pm

McGuire gave Chris Paul fits in the Wiz's two wins against New Orleans last year. He can guard the opposition's best player -- be it a 1, 2 or 3.
"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way."
— Steve Martin
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 70,074
And1: 22,488
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Hawks @ Wizards (3/2) 

Post#29 » by nate33 » Tue Mar 3, 2009 7:48 pm

Our rotation for the rest of the season should be as follows:

PG Crittenton(32), James(16)
SG DMac(20), Young(28)
SF Butler(34), DMac(14)
PF Jamison(34), Songaila(14)
C Blatche(28), McGee(20)

That's a solid, 9-man rotation. There's no reason why this isn't happening. First of all, it's probably our best lineup anyhow. Secondly, it gives the youngsters steady minutes and predicatable playing time.

The only concern is Pecherov. He probably deserves some burn but I'm hesitant to throw 5 young guys on the floor at once with no veteran to help stabilize things. I kinda like having DSong out there to support McGee.

Heck, at least do this for the next 10 games or so until Arenas and Haywood come back. For God's sake, there's no logical reason to continue to start James at PG and Songaila at C!
fishercob
RealGM
Posts: 13,922
And1: 1,571
Joined: Apr 25, 2002
Location: Tenleytown, DC

Re: Hawks @ Wizards (3/2) 

Post#30 » by fishercob » Tue Mar 3, 2009 10:39 pm

nate33 wrote:Our rotation for the rest of the season should be as follows:

PG Crittenton(32), James(16)
SG DMac(20), Young(28)
SF Butler(34), DMac(14)
PF Jamison(34), Songaila(14)
C Blatche(28), McGee(20)

That's a solid, 9-man rotation. There's no reason why this isn't happening. First of all, it's probably our best lineup anyhow. Secondly, it gives the youngsters steady minutes and predicatable playing time.

The only concern is Pecherov. He probably deserves some burn but I'm hesitant to throw 5 young guys on the floor at once with no veteran to help stabilize things. I kinda like having DSong out there to support McGee.

Heck, at least do this for the next 10 games or so until Arenas and Haywood come back. For God's sake, there's no logical reason to continue to start James at PG and Songaila at C!


Nate, I like that, but I'd like to see Blatche (and McGee if possible, but less important right now) getting some forward minutes. I'd like to see more of the two of them together as well, with Antawn or Caron on the floor as the other forward.
"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way."
— Steve Martin
hands11
Banned User
Posts: 31,171
And1: 2,444
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: Hawks @ Wizards (3/2) 

Post#31 » by hands11 » Wed Mar 4, 2009 1:18 am

nate33 wrote:I think WizarDynasty makes an interesting point in his unnecessarily long and repetitive post.

It may actually help Nick Young's development quite a bit to make him to play PG. It'll force him to get into a mindset of running the offense and setting up his teammates. I also think that Young might to a fine job defending point guards if he puts his mind to it. I don't necessarily agree that Young will be better than Arenas at defending PG's, but it can't hurt for them to be interchangable defensively like Arenas and Hughes were.

Don't get me wrong, I don't in any way believe that Young can ever be a true PG. But in this throwaway season, maybe the best way to develop Young's SG skills is to play him at PG.


As a teaching tool... I guess. Nick is a tough case. He got messed up when Tapps tried to get him to play right the last time. Some NBA player just don't have the light bulb go on. They have their own ideas of the player they think they are.

Lets not forget. Nick was drafted as protection against Gil leaving. That was the skill set we were looking to replace. Nick is just being what he was. Now we don't need that. With everyone healthy, we really only need to Nick to be.....Roger Mason. He isn't going to be a starting SG playing 35 minutes a game with a PG next to him. At best he is going to get 15-18 minutes on a team that has a lot more talent then when GA showed up.

Hell, lots of us don't even want to see GA shot as much if AJ and CB are going to be here. I want Haywood and Blatche to get shots.

Nick has to adapt, or Nick will have to go. Time to size down the ego and be a roll player that contributes. That's how DMAC is making his name. Since he has a awesome shot, become the best 3 point shooter in the league. That is nothing to sneeze at and it's something in his reach. He doesn't need to learn the PG. He needs to just select better shots and change what he does when passed the ball. Seems like a smaller adjustment if you ask me.

Long, athletic long lock down defender, sniper 3 ball shooter who will blow by you if you charge at him to much. Nothing wrong with that at all. You can be paid being that guy.
fishercob
RealGM
Posts: 13,922
And1: 1,571
Joined: Apr 25, 2002
Location: Tenleytown, DC

Re: Hawks @ Wizards (3/2) 

Post#32 » by fishercob » Wed Mar 4, 2009 1:34 am

hands11 wrote:
nate33 wrote:I think WizarDynasty makes an interesting point in his unnecessarily long and repetitive post.

It may actually help Nick Young's development quite a bit to make him to play PG. It'll force him to get into a mindset of running the offense and setting up his teammates. I also think that Young might to a fine job defending point guards if he puts his mind to it. I don't necessarily agree that Young will be better than Arenas at defending PG's, but it can't hurt for them to be interchangable defensively like Arenas and Hughes were.

Don't get me wrong, I don't in any way believe that Young can ever be a true PG. But in this throwaway season, maybe the best way to develop Young's SG skills is to play him at PG.


As a teaching tool... I guess. Nick is a tough case. He got messed up when Tapps tried to get him to play right the last time. Some NBA player just don't have the light bulb go on. They have their own ideas of the player they think they are.

Lets not forget. Nick was drafted as protection against Gil leaving. That was the skill set we were looking to replace. Nick is just being what he was. Now we don't need that. With everyone healthy, we really only need to Nick to be.....Roger Mason. He isn't going to be a starting SG playing 35 minutes a game with a PG next to him. At best he is going to get 15-18 minutes on a team that has a lot more talent then when GA showed up.


How could we forget something you just made up?

That aside, I think your vision for what Nick should be is great. The problem is that unlike McGuire, N1on5 (kudos on the moniker) doesn't have the track record of continuous, consistent improvement. He is what he is. He may become a better version of what he is, but I don't see him adding things to his game/changing/adapting like he needs to.
"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way."
— Steve Martin
hands11
Banned User
Posts: 31,171
And1: 2,444
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: Hawks @ Wizards (3/2) 

Post#33 » by hands11 » Wed Mar 4, 2009 1:38 am

miller31time wrote:1. Crittenton needs to start. There is absolutely no reason (besides being a "veteran", of course) that Mike James should be starting and getting consistent minutes while Javaris rots on the bench.

2. I don't want to see Nick Young at point guard, even in an experiment scenario. I want him to get consistent minutes, whether he plays well or not...whether he makes tons of mistakes or not...whether he's on fire or ice cold - give him 20-25 minutes per game consistently and let him learn the best way he knows how.

3. Ok....last time....MCGEE NEEDS MORE MINUTES AND A CONSISTENT ROLE!!!!!!!!!!! WE'RE 1-185, I THINK WE CAN AFFORD IT!!!!!!!!!!......there, that's it. Never again will those words by typed by this poster.



Crit Average Min by month

Dec 4.9 min
Jan 16.6 min
Feb 23.9 min

Hey, I hear yeah. I want to see him start also. Been saying it for a while now but it's hard to argue wtih what is working. He has developed nicely this year. It's hard for me to second guess this kind of progress.


As for Nick. I couldn't disagree more. He needs to play the game they ask him to play. If he doesn't, he can rot on the bench and get shipped out of here as soon as we can ship him.

McGee got 32 minutes against ATL. He will get that again if he plays with the focus he did in that game. Personally. I think he will. He took another step since that Obama game. Even more so, the ATL game. He got out on screen like DSong does, he played solid D, rebounded like a maniac and just played an all around better game. He is still going to have a problem against teams with bigger bigs but I saw substantial progress last game. There are 20-25+ plus for him a night if he keep it up.
User avatar
Zerocious
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,784
And1: 0
Joined: Dec 17, 2006
Location: Wizards purgatory

Re: Hawks @ Wizards (3/2) 

Post#34 » by Zerocious » Wed Mar 4, 2009 1:44 am

miller31time wrote:3. Ok....last time....MCGEE NEEDS MORE MINUTES AND A CONSISTENT ROLE!!!!!!!!!!! WE'RE 1-185, I THINK WE CAN AFFORD IT!!!!!!!!!!......there, that's it. Never again will those words by typed by this poster.


looking to make a liar out of yourself?
hands11
Banned User
Posts: 31,171
And1: 2,444
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: Hawks @ Wizards (3/2) 

Post#35 » by hands11 » Wed Mar 4, 2009 1:53 am

fishercob wrote:
hands11 wrote:
nate33 wrote:I think WizarDynasty makes an interesting point in his unnecessarily long and repetitive post.

It may actually help Nick Young's development quite a bit to make him to play PG. It'll force him to get into a mindset of running the offense and setting up his teammates. I also think that Young might to a fine job defending point guards if he puts his mind to it. I don't necessarily agree that Young will be better than Arenas at defending PG's, but it can't hurt for them to be interchangable defensively like Arenas and Hughes were.

Don't get me wrong, I don't in any way believe that Young can ever be a true PG. But in this throwaway season, maybe the best way to develop Young's SG skills is to play him at PG.


As a teaching tool... I guess. Nick is a tough case. He got messed up when Tapps tried to get him to play right the last time. Some NBA player just don't have the light bulb go on. They have their own ideas of the player they think they are.

Lets not forget. Nick was drafted as protection against Gil leaving. That was the skill set we were looking to replace. Nick is just being what he was. Now we don't need that. With everyone healthy, we really only need to Nick to be.....Roger Mason. He isn't going to be a starting SG playing 35 minutes a game with a PG next to him. At best he is going to get 15-18 minutes on a team that has a lot more talent then when GA showed up.


How could we forget something you just made up?

That aside, I think your vision for what Nick should be is great. The problem is that unlike McGuire, N1on5 (kudos on the moniker) doesn't have the track record of continuous, consistent improvement. He is what he is. He may become a better version of what he is, but I don't see him adding things to his game/changing/adapting like he needs to.


And this is why he is being coached. And this is why he doesn't get consistent minutes. It's why he isn't treated like CB or AJ who have already developed their NBA talent into NBA players. They are players who made it to the All Star game. Nick isn't even a good bench player yet.

Tapps tried to work with him to change. N1on5 got messed up. Then Tapps backed off and let him do his thing again so he could get some confidence back. After that run, N1on5 petered out on his own. He is the last of the youngs to show signs of getting over the hump. Hopefully he does before the season is over. I'm just looking for a sign and I haven't seen it yet.

As for me making something up. Hard to know how to respond to that one. That was just a basic fact. We didn't know if we could resign GA so we drafted someone to fill in in case he left. The fact you don't know that is actually kind of amazing so it hardly constitutes me making something up.
fishercob
RealGM
Posts: 13,922
And1: 1,571
Joined: Apr 25, 2002
Location: Tenleytown, DC

Re: Hawks @ Wizards (3/2) 

Post#36 » by fishercob » Wed Mar 4, 2009 2:05 am

hands11 wrote:
As for me making something up. Hard to know how to respond to that one. That was just a basic fact. We didn't know if we could resign GA so we drafted someone to fill in in case he left. The fact you don't know that is actually kind of amazing so it hardly constitutes me making something up.


It's conjecture. It's not an entirely implausible theory, but hardly a "basic fact." Ernie was likely drafting BPA regardless of Gil's status.
"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way."
— Steve Martin
Jimmy Recard
RealGM
Posts: 10,386
And1: 5,812
Joined: Feb 08, 2009
 

Re: Hawks @ Wizards (3/2) 

Post#37 » by Jimmy Recard » Thu Mar 5, 2009 12:56 am

miller31time wrote:2. I don't want to see Nick Young at point guard, even in an experiment scenario. I want him to get consistent minutes, whether he plays well or not...whether he makes tons of mistakes or not...whether he's on fire or ice cold - give him 20-25 minutes per game consistently and let him learn the best way he knows how.


100% Agree.

It's hard to be consistent when your receiving inconsistent minutes. Especially for a young player. Right now Nick's struggling mentally and looks lost out there because he doesn't have insurance that he's going to play minutes if he makes a mistake. There's nothing wrong with benching him when he's a disaster on the court and hurting the team. But sitting him after he makes one measly mistake is not the way to develop young talent. It's a confidence killer. See Kwame.

Look at Dom last season and early this season when he was getting spot minutes. He was terrible. Ever since he's been getting 30 minutes a night, he's confidence has been sky high and hes been one of our best players in the last month.

Return to Washington Wizards