Mike Adams visits GB

[ReasonablySober]

Are you really saying that Thompson could lose his job because he couldn't find an effect DE opposite Jenkins? I mean, really?

I don't think it's a real need. Look at San Diego. They only have one starting caliber 3-4 DE. Dallas just lost one of two. Get a big warm body that can fill two gaps and that's your 3-4 DE. Worst case scenario you have Johnny Jolly starting over there and you know what? He'll give you the same kind of production that Olshansky gave San Diego. It isn't a big deal.

[aaprigs311]

I see what you're saying CV. The system TT employs works, but at some point you need to make some moves that don't necessarily follow your philosophy. He did that with Woodson and Pickett, but has failed to really take a chance lately. I'm not even asking for a big time player, I just want some god damn depth because our defensive line is just scary right now.

[MikeIsGood]

Are you really saying that Thompson could lose his job because he couldn't find an effect DE opposite Jenkins? I mean, really?

I don't think it's a real need. Look at San Diego. They only have one starting caliber 3-4 DE. Dallas just lost one of two. Get a big warm body that can fill two gaps and that's your 3-4 DE. Worst case scenario you have Johnny Jolly starting over there and you know what? He'll give you the same kind of production that Olshansky gave San Diego. It isn't a big deal.

I'm starting to feel two threads creep together.

I see what both of you are saying, but I agree with DB that not having an 'effective DE opposite Jenkins' isn't going to lose him his job one year into a brand-new defense. There have been some opportunities to make improvements, and as I have expressed I want to pursue these opportunities...and he has thus far (though arguably to what degree). But if it doesn't work out, ad libbing for the first year in a new defense isn't going to be back breaking most likely. The draft in '10 has the potential to be more full of 34DEs compared to this year's draft.

That said, to my original point about the threads starting to merge together, what I think it bares mention again is zman's idea of trading down with the Lions in the upcoming draft. If we completely strike out in free agency, it could be the most viable option to address multiple areas of need on the defense while not completely ignoring the offensive line. And I think it can be done, likely, without feeling that you just sacrificed a player that you absolutely should not be trading away from. Depends upon your feelings for the players, of course.

I am certainly not completely sold on trading down, but I think given what's available in this draft and in what pick location that talent is generally considered "reasonable," it does makes some sense for us given the switch to the 3-4.

[Ill-yasova]

He's going into his third season. He's had some really good games and some really bad games. I'm going to hold off on saying he doesn't have a future in the NFL for now.

I agree with your assessment. He seems to have a nose for the ball but he has been very inconsistent. That said, with his size and athletic skills you have to give him a chance.

[Jollay]

Hello!

New England is looking at this guy as a backup safety and special teams player.

So, no, this doesn't fit my very particular request for TT to find one starter in FA, just one.
But at least we got a visit...baby steps, people.
Simple as this, if TT doesn't go 9-7 I dont think he has a job. And nor should he.

I also agree its too early to give up on Rouse.

[MajorDad]

I believe we all can see Tt has a certain philosophy about how to build a team. he hates to sign free agents, and only does so as a last resort. he loves draft picks and he loves to trade down. he loves to save money. the offensive zone blocking and 3/4 defensive schemes are also philosophies of Tt that go against the grain/tradition of the NFl. if this philosophy produces a winner, then Tt is a genius. if it doesn't produce a consistent winner, then somebody above TT has to realize his philosophy is flawed and needs to fire him for somebody who balances free agency with good drafting skills.

My gripes with his philosophies are that he seems to implement them without the talent to succeed in those schemes. he didn't really have the talent needed to implement a zone blocking scheme, yet he did it anyway. he wants to implement a 3/4 defense , yet he doesn't have 4 great linebackers, nor does he have 3 great d lineman to implement that scheme. so why is he so headstrong about wanting to change the existing defensive scheme? he isn't doing so to take advantage of his current players' talents. it appears to me he's just implementing a change just to make a change and have a reason /excuse for possible failure.

TT has been in green bay long enough that he should have put together a decent team. but each year he keeps doing something that appears as if it it is trying to buy time so he'll keep his job for a few more years. he's no closer today to having a championship team than he was when he arrived. last year it was jettisonning favre. this year it's implementing a new defense. What grandiose thing will Tt introduce next year that will require another 3 more years to implement?

[Kerb Hohl]

Well Reed, he had a great team in '07. Most signs point to Favre not being the only reason that that team was good.

Call them useless stats, but a lot of the number-crunching sites said with the numbers we put up, we should have been about a 10-6 team in 2008.

Plays weren't made. I think the year before we were a 10-6 team that got lucky in a few games. Off the top of my head, we played horrible but won vs. Philly in a game that included 2 muffed punt returns(1 for a TD) and 50+ yard game winning FG by Crosby in his first regular season game ever, played fairly well but caught a few breaks and Barnett had a clutch tackle or two to have us beat a San Diego team that hadn't caught their stride, and if Denver scores from the 2 yard line in regulation, that Favre to Jennings winner never happens. There, 10-6.

By no means am I saying that '08 was anywhere near as good of a team as '07, but I am saying that the teams weren't as far off as records indicated. Everyone has a down year. It's the NFL and a few plays here and there define almost every game.

Look at the Steelers with very similar makeups and minimal changes (mostly by their own drafts, mind you):

2004: 15-1 372-251
2005: 11-5 389-258 WON SUPER BOWL
2006: 8-8 353-315 MISSED PLAYOFFS
2007: 10-6 393-269
2008: 12-4 347-223 WON SUPER BOWL

In every year but 2006, they generally outscored their opponents by about 120 points overall. Now, blowouts can throw things off, but to me it seems like they were generally an elite team each of those years except for '06 where their defense didn't play up to form and maybe they had a super bowl hangover.

I put those numbers up to show that a team can play generally the same overall but so many little things can change your record drastically. Those little things need to be addressed by a coach and GM, but on a one-year basis, people look way too far into things. I understand these are the things that get NFL teams playoff appearances and win them titles, but all it takes is a few injuries and below-expected play from a few guys on your defense and you can drop 4 or 5 wins.

So in 1 year we dropped 7 games from the win total from 13 to 6. I realize that is a scary amount. However, should the Steelers GM be fired for going from 15 wins to 8 in 2 years? I realize a Super Bowl occurred in between so obviously this is not a serious question, but:

A 15-win team led by Big Ben as a rookie,
Bettis/Staley past their primes,
Ward/Burress(early in his career)/Randle El
and defensive guys such as Polamalu/Farrior/Hope/Foote/Townsend/Porter/Harrison/Smith/Haggans

Or an 8-win team led by
Ben in what should be his prime
Parker in prime shape
Ward/Holmes/Washington
and defensive guys such as Polamalu/Farrior/Taylor/Foote/Townsend/Porter/Harrison/Smith/Haggans

I notice almost zero differences in those teams.

Anyways, after this long explanation, I have hope for this team next year.

...I just think we need depth and I don't know if you can acquire all of it via draft at a few slots. I'm not saying that not having a DE of starting caliber on one side will be your downfall but I just feel we are really thin there.


And one final question:
Please find a player on the Steelers recent championship starting roster that wasn't drafted or signed as an undrafted free agent by them. Other than Farrior, Justin Hartwig, and a solid contributor in Tyrone Carter...I don't see any. Free agency FTL.

[automatic44]

Thats a great post CV. I agree, this team could have easily been 8-8, 9-7, maybe even 10-6 had the ball bounced our way a bit more. Instead we had a few crucial breakdowns, a couple of injuries to key players, and down years by some key players (Hawk, Jolly, Clifton) that were just too tough to overcome. I mean, 7 of our losses were by 4 points or less, and four of those losses came down to a last minute or OT field goal. This isn't as bad as a team as some people think, and I don't believe we need to shake things up too much, although I agree we need some pieces for the 3-4, and depth.

And Major Dad, I highly doubt Thompson is implementing a zone blocking scheme and 3-4 defense just to have an excuse for failure. Both are proven systems that have had high success rates and have been used by numerous super bowl teams. It's not as if these are just crazy ideas he's throwing out there as part of his "diabolical plan" to keep a job in the Packers front office.

[El Duderino]

However, with a different system in place, players falling apart, injuries, and most of all urgency...he needs to get aggressive offseason. Not seeing it thus far.

No he doesn't. Big free agent spending doesn't work. Drafting well, keeping your own valuable players, building a foundation that can sustain success...that's the only model that works.

Agreed. Do you think he'll have a job after the season with no player worthy of starting at DE opposite Jenkins, though?

Trust me, I'm as much of a "build solely through the draft" guy as you are.

I don't agree that building almost entirely through the draft is the only model that works in the NFL, spending quite a bit of money on some free agents while mixed in with good drafting can really help any NFL team. When free agency does hurt is when a team like say the Redskins go overboard. Free agency is like any other tool for acquiring talent, if a GM makes the proper evaluation on a free agent it will help his team, when they make a poor evaluation it will hurt.

Look at the Steelers with very similar makeups and minimal changes (mostly by their own drafts, mind you):

No question teams have won lots of games via the route the Steelers have done, i'm not really all that bothered by the philosophy Thompson chooses to use when building a football team. If he wants to be largely passive with moves outside of the draft, so be it. That said, then Ted needs to draft better than he has. Pittsburgh has been able to be consistently good without using free agency much because they've been really good at finding talent largely in the draft. Baltimore has been able to consistently put together top defenses because Ozzie Newsome has found impact players in the draft. The Giants rising back to being really good because they've drafted studs like Osi Umenyiora, Tuck, Jacobs and put together a quality offensive line.

I'm not saying Thompson has been a bad drafter, just that he hasn't been anything special so far in the draft and that's a sizable reason why the defense has the problems it does. He's hit a few home runs with Rodgers and Jennings, maybe Collins can be added to that list if he builds on last season, but that's it so far at least out of all his draft picks. He's drafted a million offensive lineman and none so far have performed better than decent. Yea TT hasn't had a bunch of flat out busts like Sherman had, but he also hasn't found any of those 5th/6th round guys either that turned into a Kampman, KGB, Corey Williams, or Tauscher. He in four years hasn't drafted or acquired a single quality pass rusher, that's one reason the defense fell apart last year after Jenkins got hurt, Ted didn't have any quality young depth waiting in the wings to step in on the DL. Hawk has been very undewhelming for the 5th overall pick and Harrell has been a bust, that badly hurt the defense. Rouse was brutal last year.

Again, i'm not saying he has drafted terrible because he hasn't. He's done a fabulous job rebuilding the WR core. Picking Rodgers was incredibly important for the present and future of the franchise. While TT has spent a ton of picks on th OL and none have become a Clifton, Tauscher, or Wahle quality player, both Colledge/Spitz have been at least servicable and sometime offensive lineman need time to reach full potential. My main point is if TT is going to build almost only through the draft, he's going to have to hit bigger on guys more than he has like a say Tuck, Osi Umenyiora, B.Jacobs vs just getting a bunch of solid but nothing special guys like Spitz, Colledge, B. Jackson, Jolly, Hall, Hawk, Bishop etc etc. Granted though, no doubt that there are some young guys on the roster that could break out or improve quite a bit.

[ReasonablySober]

He's staying with Cleveland.