Does anyone from the C's make the All-Defensive teams?

[campybatman]

Garnett was named to the All-Defensive First Team last season. While both Pierce and Rondo received a few votes.

[greenbeans]

Garnett's about it

[Celts09]

1. kg
2. perk
3. rondo

[Bleeding Green]

Garnett and Rondo SHOULD be on the first, but I doubt either one does. I think they'll both make the second, though.

[SonicYouth34]

I hope Pierce makes it and KG will defiantly make it.

[Jammer]

Your poll is flawed.
The poll should not be limited to one choice,
and Ray Allen should be on the list.

In the 1970's the Celtics placed 4 players on
First or Second Team All Defense in one year
(John Havlicek, Paul Silas, and
two of Don Chaney, Jo Jo White and Dave Cowens,
I forget who didn't make it that year).

So, since the Celtics placed 4 at one time before,
limiting it to one now is a bit of a stretch.

However, the 1973 Celtics won 68 games,
and the Celtics won Championships in 1974 and 1976
(Havlicek dislocated a shoulder in the 1973 ECF).

Kevin Garnett's opponent PER of 13.8 leads all PF's defensively.
KG should be on the First Team.

Ray Allen's opponent PER of 12.0 is bettered only by Dwyane Wade's 11.9,
and the limited minute play of Milwaukee's Michael Redd 11.8.
Ray won't make it, but his numbers are the second best defensively at SG for
someone who has played most of the starting minutes.
Although Tony Allen's 9.9 leads,
Tony has only played about 26% of Total Minutes,
which will be even less since Tony will unavailable until early April
Ray Allen deserves Second Team All Defense.
Watch the writers give it to Kobe.

At SF, Andrei Kirilenko leads with a 9.6 PER (limited minutes due to injury),
LeBron James 10.3,
Ron Artest 12.0,
Shane Battier 12.6 (limited minutes due to injury),
Paul Pierce is tied with Tayshaun Prince for fifth best at SF with 12.9
But since awards are more a popularity contest,
the writers won't put Kirilenko on,
although the coaches probably would.
Don't be surprised if LeBron and Ron Artest end up First and Second Team.
But Paul Pierce is playing fanstastic.

Perk's 17.1 defensive PER trails
Zydrunas Illgauskas 13.3
Dwight Howard 13.8
Samuel Dalembert 14.3
Nene 15.3
Andrew Bynum 15.4
Tim Duncan 15.6
Tyson Chandler 16.7
Yao Ming 16.9
but Illgauskas doesn't get any love either.
Keep in mind these numbers are an average of all games played, too;
and not your one or two bad or good games that you may have watched.
But offhand, there are others more deserving.

Rondo's 14.7 is tied with Derrick Rose; and trails
Ramon Sessions 13.2 (about 30% fewer minutes than Rajon, though)
Kurt Hinrich 13.7 (limited minutes due to injury)
Chris Paul 14.5
so you could make a strong argument for Rajon to be Second Team
behind Chris Paul,
based on a minutes played basis/team defense success

[Fencer reregistered]

Whoa. Ray Allen a good defender? OK. Certainly he's much better than his reputation coming in here suggested.

A stat that suggests Michael Redd is the best defender at his position, with Ray Allen second-best? Maybe we shouldn't rely on it exclusively ...

[Pogue Mahone]

Whoa. Ray Allen a good defender? OK. Certainly he's much better than his reputation coming in here suggested.

A stat that suggests Michael Redd is the best defender at his position, with Ray Allen second-best? Maybe we shouldn't rely on it exclusively ...

I agree with this statement.

The main problem with opponent PER, other than it being based on PER, is that it doesn't account for help defense. Rather, help defense of teammates is often reflected in the numbers of other teammates (Well, duh, Pogue.)

For instance, say Mike Redd allows dribble penetration. Bogut steps up in the lane, shuts off the penetration. Redd's man passes to Bogut's man. Bogut's man scores because of a late rotation by Villanueva.

Redd's lack of ability to deny dribble penetration has resulted in the breakdown of the entire defense yet Bogut's really the only one receiving a demerit (despite making the correct play.) There is no penalty for Redd for allowing the dribble penetration and no penalty for Villanueva failing to rotate properly.

Another issue is that for each point of possession used per 40 minutes (Usg-R), a player's PER will rise by .61 points regardless of offensive efficiency (a bit of hyperbole but the "break even" point is roughly around .325 FG%.) If Redd's man is turning down a shot after dribble penetration because help comes late on the helper's man, Redd's opponent PER is essentially unchanged yet if Bogut's man misses the shot, it will still reflect poorly on Bogut in regard to Opp PER. If look at some of the higher ranked opponent PERs on 82games, the majority are the beneficiaries of good help defense AND not players who are limiting the effectiveness of opponents.

PER also penalizes low-usage players on offense. Again, it works out to approximately .61 points of PER / 1 point of Usg-R. Sure, there is some residual value in the ability to eat up possessions so teammates can pick and choose their spots (hypothetically being more effective and efficient) but since when is it a bad thing to be one of the best offensive rebounders in the league, best individual post defenders, better than league average in scoring efficiency, etc? To top it off, to be further penalized for being the back line of defense, on the league's best defense, btw, and one of your teammate's has statistically (adjusted defensive +/-) been ranked in the bottom quadrant for his position in four of the last five years and anecdotally is mediocre, at best, on the defensive end of the court is, well, quite unfathomable to me.

In conclusion, PER, absent Usg-R, is utterly useless. If a 25 Usg-R player is defending and being defended by a 10 Usg-R player, each scores, rebounds, turns the ball over, etc at the same rates, per every 40 minutes played, the 25 Usg-R player will out-PER the 10 Usg-R player by approximately 9.00 PER. And that is before you even attempt to account for help defense, ability to make teammates better via non-recorded actions, etc.

I am biased, of course, but PER has too many flaws to be basing opinions solely off of it. At best, any rating system should be a jump off point for intellectual discussion. To use one of the worst systems, imo, is beyond silly.

[Jammer]

Pogue -

Congratulations on your well thought, erudite post.

Now,

1. Although you are correct in saying that Opponent PER does not account for
help defense, I still find NET PER the best measure of the relative value of a player than
any other method.

For example, virtually all the Celtic players are higher ranked, league wide,
on NET PER, which factors in defense, than Hollinger's pure offensive PER,
which is not even close to as useful as NET PER.

2. Although you are correct in saying that PER, and NET PER, do not
take into consideration USAGE RATE, and that high usage players
will come out higher ranked than low usage players,
in the end, basketball is about scoring points, getting stops,
grabbing rebounds, getting assists, steals,
and avoiding turnovers and fouls.

If a consequence is a low usage player doesn't score points for his time on the court,
or get assists,
he should naturally be lower ranked than someone who does those things.

Similarly, if you play 50 games, and commit twice as many turnovers as another player,
or twice as many fouls, or make half the shots of someone else,
your rating will be lower.

I know you detest PER, and I did several years ago,
but I find NET PER the best measure/predictor of who's worth
their salt (and who's not) on teams across the league.

[cisco]

KG
Perk
Pierce
Rondo

All 4 should make one of the teams.

[Golabki]

I find NET PER the best measure/predictor of who's worth
their salt (and who's not) on teams across the league.

Defensive PER is a statistic with ZERO statistical evidence suggesting it is meaningful at all. For this reason it is stupid. Using it to support your claims hold the exact same amount of merit as saying "I love Pierce, Pierce should be on the all defensive team".


Also, Redd was a defensive minded player in college and was drafted as a defensive role player. I think his defensive reputation has taken a beating more due to his crappy team than anything else.

[sully00]

There is no "best measure," it is simply lazy to try and do it that way.

Take everything into account, you can use opp PER, but use adjusted plus mins, and defensive rating, defensive win shares, and then simply look at the team's defense. This is the thing that I think is the most underutilized aspect of evaluating a player as a defender. I have never understood how you could be considered one of the best defensive players on a team that isn't very good defensively. Most of the time in these situations you will find players who are productive defensively, steals, rebounds, and blocked shots but they don't actually defend their position very well. Camby and Marion are two guys who I think get a ton of run as defenders but are very overrated because they cannot guard their own man. The point is stop the other team from scoring and both of these guys play on teams with awful point allowed and FG %.

Garnett is a lock he is not only a great individual defender but he also makes his teammates better defenders. Rondo will get some run but I think he is actually taken a step back this season. Perk absolutely deserves to be on a team but I don't think he is a very popular player and that may hurt him, but he is flat out one of the two or three best low post defenders in the game. Pierce deserves some run but he is being out shined by LeBron and there is no way in hell either one is better than Battier.

[campybatman]

These were from last season. I think this year's will be similar but with new names replacing others.



2007-08 NBA ALL-DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAM

Forward Kevin Garnett, Boston
Guard Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers
Center Marcus Camby, Denver (edit) Howard
Guard/Forward Bruce Bowen, San Antonio (edit) Wade
Forward Tim Duncan, San Antonio (edit) L. James

2007-08 NBA ALL-DEFENSIVE SECOND TEAM

Forward Shane Battier, Houston
Guard Chris Paul, New Orleans
Center Dwight Howard, Orlando (edit) Camby or Okafor
Forward Tayshaun Prince, Detroit (edit) Duncan
Guard Raja Bell, Phoenix (edit) Rondo

http://www.nba.com/news/defensive_team_080512.html

[sully00]

Also, Redd was a defensive minded player in college and was drafted as a defensive role player. I think his defensive reputation has taken a beating more due to his crappy team than anything else.

Michael Redd is a horrendous and indifferent defender, it isn't a statistical issue, just watch him play. Usually if someone isn't going to really guard anyone they will at least rebound or create steals but not Michael Redd. An incidental indicator, something that tells you whether someone plays defense even though it isn't an indicator of good or bad defense, is fouls. Michael Redd avg 1.4 fouls a game and 1.7 for his career that is like a foul less a game than Jordan. His foul rate is comparable to other olle's like Nash, Parker, and Iverson.

That said Ray Allen avgs about 2 fouls a game and I don't think Ray qualifies in the great defender category by any stretch but he has certainly gone from avg at best to good in Boston.

As far as that list Bonsa I just wish the all defensive team went to the 10 best defenders in the NBA not stars who play defense or worry about position. These are the 10 best defenders in the NBA this season

1. Howard
2. Garnett
3. LeBron
4. Duncan
5. Paul
6. Rondo (he has been better than I give him credit for)
7. Yao
8. Okafor
9. Ben Wallace
10. Gerald Wallace

The next 5 are Perkins/Varejao/Pierce/Scola/Ariza. I think Wade and Bryant are overrated, this sesason they have only been a little better than Ray Allen and Battier has been injured. Perkins and Varejao are better than some in the top 10 but you can't have 10 centers and I couldn't live with putting Flopping Bob on the list.

[GreenDreamer]

I think that opponents PER is one of the weakest stats going. It isn't completely useless, but to try and define a defender by it is wrong headed. Case in point: Derrick Rose's opponents PER is close to that of Rondo. Just go on the Bulls board and ask them what they think of Rose's defense. He just might be their worst defender, yet he he has a similar opponents PER to a guy who is widely considered to be, at the very least, a top 3 defender at his position, if not the best period.

If Rondo is so much better than Rose, why are these the same? Usage in the defensive scheme. Rondo plays his man, whoever he is, straight up with little to no help. Rose, on the other hand, is such a sieve that the Bulls defense has to cover for him. A big stepping up on a pick and roll is NOT giving help, mind you. If the pick setters man doesn't involve himself, then a pick and rool is basically a twoon one play, and NO ONE can cover his man in that situation. It isn't as if Rondo, or anyone else, can pass through a big setting a pick as if he were a ghost. In Rondo's case, though, his recovery time on pick and rolls is a good as anyone. Personally I think he's the best, which is why the Celtics so rarely switch on them, because Rondo gets back to his man so quickly. Rose's pick and roll defense is not good at all, which means that his teammates ar constantly cheating towards him.

In addition to things like that, Rondo is such a good defender that he is often tasked help off of his man, even when that guy is a really good player. The reason being that he can recover more often than not and still prevent his man from getting a good shot. Sometimes that guy gets a good one off anywyas, but in the SCHEME it is worth taking that risk because of the overall effect on the opponents offense. Rose, like most young players, just gets lost out there in those situations and so stays home more often. Rondo is also the best in the business at applying full court pressure on an opposing PG. You often see teams have their winsg bring up the ball against the Celts instead of the points guards because when Rondo wanst to he can make his guy take 10 seconds just to bring the ball up. Rose is a non factor in this department. Rondo is also very hard to take advantage of in "mismatches" on switches. You almost always see opponents go away from him in these situtions, or fail to get good possessions when attempting to "exploit" him.

Finally, you have the steals and rebounds. Rondo is one of the best guards in the league at stealing and boarding. The overall impact of that is that he does a lot to take away scoring opportunities from the opponents. Rose isn't terrible in that department, but he's not good either. In the end a guy like Rondo has a huge impact on an opposing offense. Rose,on the other hand, is someone who needs to be covered up.

I thought that a great example of Rondo's defensive prowess actually came in this last Cavs game. Anyone looking at the box score could have thought "Wow, Mo Williams really had his way with Rondo". Anyone who actually paid attention to the game would have seen something quite different. Williams barely did anything with Rondo on him. A great example was his spurt at the end of the second quarter. Mo hit two threes in a row, and got a layup. On both of the three point attempts Rondo was switched onto another player. The same player both times... LeBron James. The layup was on a decent drive by Mo (Rondo was still a little gimpy at that point), but Mo probably doesn't get anything if Baby doesn't completely blow his rotation. In fact, almost every point Williams scored when Rondo was in the game came with Rondo switched onto someone else either because the Celtics were in a zone defense, or Rajon had to pick up another guy in transition. Mo, to his credit, took full advantage of this situations and chewed up whoever else was guarding him. When Rondo was out of the game, Mo killed Marbury and House. It was interesting to watch - Rondo on Williams = Invisi-Mo, Rondo off Williams = Infer-Mo.

[GreenDreamer]

Personally, I think that Garnett and Rondo should both be on the first team, but if Rondo doesn't make the second team, then the voting is a joke. Perk should also get some consideration, and is definitely one of the best defensive bigs in the game.

[campybatman]

Perkins stood his ground against Duncan and made him work for shots.

I really wanted to see Boston and San Antonio in the Finals last season. I hope it can happen this season. The match-ups from these two teams are noteworthy.