College players thread/ Draft Related thread

[Worm Guts]

Griffin can handle and pass, he's more than just some brute in the post.

but that's his bread and butter - his ability to out-brute people in the paint. I don't think I'm throwing out accusations, I think it's a reasonable question to ask of Griffin - can he make his game more cerebral at the NBA level to expand his game? Especially since he's going to be able to have success if he mainly relies on his athletic gifts, so he may not necessarily see reason to expand his game.

So far he hasn't been able to use his great athletic abilities to be as dominating defensively as he is offensively (which should have been the #1 most obvious priority thus far and he hasn't really come close to that) so why should I believe he's going to develop an all around game as a pro that should be expected of a #1 pick?

Might be a great player and an all star and I'd take him over anyone not named Ricky Rubio. I'd take Michael Beasley in this draft over anyone not named Ricky Rubio too.

If you want to say he's not a dominant defender, fine, but when you say his game isn't cerebral I don't agree. He's also a player who's shown big improvement from his freshman and sophmore years. He's shown the work ethic to get better.

[Worm Guts]

Might be a great player and an all star and I'd take him over anyone not named Ricky Rubio. I'd take Michael Beasley in this draft over anyone not named Ricky Rubio too.

I think I'd take anyone from the top 10 of 2008 over anyone not named Ricky Rubio in this draft.

Griffin this year is probably a better prospect than Beasley last year.

[Jonathan Watters]

Griffin can handle and pass, he's more than just some brute in the post.

but that's his bread and butter - his ability to out-brute people in the paint. I don't think I'm throwing out accusations, I think it's a reasonable question to ask of Griffin - can he make his game more cerebral at the NBA level to expand his game? Especially since he's going to be able to have success if he mainly relies on his athletic gifts, so he may not necessarily see reason to expand his game.

So far he hasn't been able to use his great athletic abilities to be as dominating defensively as he is offensively (which should have been the #1 most obvious priority thus far and he hasn't really come close to that) so why should I believe he's going to develop an all around game as a pro that should be expected of a #1 pick?

Might be a great player and an all star and I'd take him over anyone not named Ricky Rubio. I'd take Michael Beasley in this draft over anyone not named Ricky Rubio too.

The problem with this line of reasoning is as follows - what freak athlete prospect have you NOT been able to say this about, ever? Durant just made shots because he was taller than everybody. Rose got around people because he was more explosive. Beasley dominated because he was stronger.

The argument you are making is that athletic players are more risky because we don't know if they have actual game once the competition catches up at the next level.

And this is perhaps the biggest myth to ever be perpetrated about the NBA draft. Sure, BBIQ is nice - necessary in a #1 pick most certainly. But athleticism is just as important if not moreso.

In all but extreme circumstances, you draft the athlete. History proves it. I'm not saying Rubio vs Griffin isn't an extreme circumstance, just pointing out the giant flaw in your logic.

Furthermore, if you look at recent freak athlete prospects, Griffin is in no way, shape or form behind the curve in terms of BBIQ. He has excellent BBIQ, a ridiculous passer, a Kevin Love-level rebounder, a player that absolutely knows how to get the most out of his body.

And THIS is where you are really, really off.

[john2jer]

Going off my limited knowledge of this devil game you call foosball, I gotta say Griffin looks to be π times the player that Beasley is.

[rick_21]

Last year, Beasley was better than Durant, now Griffin is better than Beasley. Who's next?

Btw I don't think Griffin is now a better prospect than Beasley was last year. I see them in the same level, and Griffin can dissapoint in the NBA as Beasley did this year or maybe as Kenyon Martin or Stromile Swift had done for many years (remember #1 and #2 in the 2000 draft)

[PeeDee]

Be-Easy has had a fine rookie season, he's had some great games and some awful ones. He's going to be a good player, no doubt. And comparing anyone in the 2008 draft to the mockery of a draft that was 2000 is a travesty.

Griffin has some great tools, just like Beasley has, it doesn't mean he going to be able to come into the league and do what he did in college automatically. Right now, I'd give the edge to Beasley simply because he's a deft shooter. That's not to say there aren't a lot of things MB needs to work on.

[Devilzsidewalk]

The problem with this line of reasoning is as follows - what freak athlete prospect have you NOT been able to say this about, ever? Durant just made shots because he was taller than everybody. Rose got around people because he was more explosive. Beasley dominated because he was stronger.

The argument you are making is that athletic players are more risky because we don't know if they have actual game once the competition catches up at the next level.

And this is perhaps the biggest myth to ever be perpetrated about the NBA draft. Sure, BBIQ is nice - necessary in a #1 pick most certainly. But athleticism is just as important if not moreso.

In all but extreme circumstances, you draft the athlete. History proves it. I'm not saying Rubio vs Griffin isn't an extreme circumstance, just pointing out the giant flaw in your logic.

Furthermore, if you look at recent freak athlete prospects, Griffin is in no way, shape or form behind the curve in terms of BBIQ. He has excellent BBIQ, a ridiculous passer, a Kevin Love-level rebounder, a player that absolutely knows how to get the most out of his body.

And THIS is where you are really, really off.

the argument I'm making is that Griffin is stronger and bigger than everybody - in college, not in the pros. So in the NBA, how will he diversify his game to be a worthy #1 pick over a guy like Rubio in the NBA? Rubio is still going to be a great floor general with uncanny vision in the NBA, but Griffin is going to frequently be going up against guys as strong or stronger and taller than him. Beasley was in the same boat, but Beasley has the smooth outside jumper going for him, Griffin is working on that, but he isn't there yet. A huge part of his offense relies on strength and leverage and I'm not confident in how that's going to translate against the Kendrick Perkinses of the world. And even if he develops a little jumper and can be a 24/11 kinda player - and I think he can - if there's no defense, then I still wouldn't have him ahead of Rubio. He's gonna be a great pro I think, I just don't have him ahead of Rubio. No problem.

[Zeitgeister]

Last year, Beasley was better than Durant, now Griffin is better than Beasley. Who's next?

Btw I don't think Griffin is now a better prospect than Beasley was last year. I see them in the same level, and Griffin can dissapoint in the NBA as Beasley did this year or maybe as Kenyon Martin or Stromile Swift had done for many years (remember #1 and #2 in the 2000 draft)

They are talking about prospects not how good they are in college. Even before Durant is the best prospect of the three because of the huge advantages he holds over everyone else playing small forward in the NBA, he's like a longer armed, more athletic Dirk Nowitski.

Beasley is the worst pro prospect of the three (but still a good prospect) because he's a tweener. His skills and athleticism are better suited for the power forward position but he's a little too small to play the position.

Griffin is taller and stronger then Beasley from the looks of it, not to mention the fact that he's probably more athletic as well. I don't think Griffin will have any problems adjusting his game to the NBA.

[Zeitgeister]

The problem with this line of reasoning is as follows - what freak athlete prospect have you NOT been able to say this about, ever? Durant just made shots because he was taller than everybody. Rose got around people because he was more explosive. Beasley dominated because he was stronger.

The argument you are making is that athletic players are more risky because we don't know if they have actual game once the competition catches up at the next level.

And this is perhaps the biggest myth to ever be perpetrated about the NBA draft. Sure, BBIQ is nice - necessary in a #1 pick most certainly. But athleticism is just as important if not moreso.

In all but extreme circumstances, you draft the athlete. History proves it. I'm not saying Rubio vs Griffin isn't an extreme circumstance, just pointing out the giant flaw in your logic.

Furthermore, if you look at recent freak athlete prospects, Griffin is in no way, shape or form behind the curve in terms of BBIQ. He has excellent BBIQ, a ridiculous passer, a Kevin Love-level rebounder, a player that absolutely knows how to get the most out of his body.

And THIS is where you are really, really off.

the argument I'm making is that Griffin is stronger and bigger than everybody - in college, not in the pros. So in the NBA, how will he diversify his game to be a worthy #1 pick over a guy like Rubio in the NBA? Rubio is still going to be a great floor general with uncanny vision in the NBA, but Griffin is going to frequently be going up against guys as strong or stronger and taller than him. Beasley was in the same boat, but Beasley has the smooth outside jumper going for him, Griffin is working on that, but he isn't there yet. A huge part of his offense relies on strength and leverage and I'm not confident in how that's going to translate against the Kendrick Perkinses of the world. And even if he develops a little jumper and can be a 24/11 kinda player - and I think he can - if there's no defense, then I still wouldn't have him ahead of Rubio. He's gonna be a great pro I think, I just don't have him ahead of Rubio. No problem.

The thing is, Griffin is going to hold a lot of athletic advantages over NBA power forwards as well. You know, there were people saying these very same things about Lebron James as well before he was drafted. "He's playing against people a lot smaller then him, what happens when he faces players his size?" Not to say Griffin is that kind of athlete, but he does have great size and athleticism for the position.

[Devilzsidewalk]

best case scenario is that all his college game translates 100% to the NBA - he still has to learn to use his athletic gifts on the other side of the ball. Nobody has ever said that about Ricky Rubio.

at any rate, I'm bored talking about it already. I feel like I'm defending a position that Griffin sucks when I said I'd take him over anybody in this draft besides Ricky Rubio, and I know I'm not alone in that.

[john2jer]

Anyone who thought Beasley was going to be a better pro than Durant needs to re-evaluate their knowledge of the game. Beasley might turn out to be a fine pro still, but he's an WAY under-sized 4, or a 3 with the wrong skillset. He's mini-tweener. Beasley is the perfect example of what Griffin is going to try and avoid.

Griffin isn't better than Durant. That's saying a lot for me because up until recently I pretty much hated Durant.

Kenyon Martin's troubles have to be partially blamed on his major injuries. Also, I think way too high of expectations were put on K-Mart due to him being the #1 pick, when really that draft is very similar to the way my girlfriend goes shopping. She enters a mall or store and she HAS to buy something, no matter how crappy the selection is. She has to find the best of the crap. Kenyon Martin was pretty much the best of the crap. Anyone with any sense would have taken one trip around the store and walked out with their wallet and tried a different store on a different day, but no, she's gotta buy the pink shirt with purple stripes that's 3 sizes too big because she can't just hold on to her money.

I can't wait til we get married.

[Jonathan Watters]

Be-Easy has had a fine rookie season, he's had some great games and some awful ones. He's going to be a good player, no doubt. And comparing anyone in the 2008 draft to the mockery of a draft that was 2000 is a travesty.

Griffin has some great tools, just like Beasley has, it doesn't mean he going to be able to come into the league and do what he did in college automatically. Right now, I'd give the edge to Beasley simply because he's a deft shooter. That's not to say there aren't a lot of things MB needs to work on.

Yep, that is what it comes to. People are so dead set on a certain player that anybody else, no matter how good, can be accused of having a poor BBIQ and being the second coming of Stromile Swift.

No. It doesn't work that way.

[john2jer]

The thing is, Griffin is going to hold a lot of athletic advantages over NBA power forwards as well. You know, there were people saying these very same things about Lebron James as well before he was drafted. "He's playing against people a lot smaller then him, what happens when he faces players his size?" Not to say Griffin is that kind of athlete, but he does have great size and athleticism for the position.

We're still waiting to see what happens when LeBron plays against guys his size or bigger. Yeah he can dominate the NBA, but he'd get his butt handed to him against the MonSTARS on Moron Mountain.

[Jonathan Watters]

the argument I'm making is that Griffin is stronger and bigger than everybody - in college, not in the pros.

Yes, I'm aware of that. I spent three paragraphs explaining to you why that argument is flawed. Care to respond to that, or would you like to keep repeating yourself?

So in the NBA, how will he diversify his game to be a worthy #1 pick over a guy like Rubio in the NBA? Rubio is still going to be a great floor general with uncanny vision in the NBA, but Griffin is going to frequently be going up against guys as strong or stronger and taller than him.

How do we know that Rubio's athleticism will hold up on a nightly basis? What makes you so sure of that?

Beasley was in the same boat, but Beasley has the smooth outside jumper going for him, Griffin is working on that, but he isn't there yet. A huge part of his offense relies on strength and leverage and I'm not confident in how that's going to translate against the Kendrick Perkinses of the world. And even if he develops a little jumper and can be a 24/11 kinda player - and I think he can - if there's no defense, then I still wouldn't have him ahead of Rubio. He's gonna be a great pro I think, I just don't have him ahead of Rubio. No problem.

And you still said there were questions about his BBIQ. Which is STILL asinine! Just admit it!

[Jonathan Watters]

Griffin isn't better than Durant. That's saying a lot for me because up until recently I pretty much hated Durant.

No doubt about that. Durant was a new breed, something special. But apparently Devilz wouldn't have taken him because the only thing you can count on to translate is court vision.

[Devilzsidewalk]

And you still said there were questions about his BBIQ. Which is STILL asinine! Just admit it!

I admit it, I was completely wrong and you were 100% right.

[john2jer]

Griffin isn't better than Durant. That's saying a lot for me because up until recently I pretty much hated Durant.

No doubt about that. Durant was a new breed, something special. But apparently Devilz wouldn't have taken him because the only thing you can count on to translate is court vision.

I don't recall Devilz saying he would have passed on Durant, but then again I admit to not following that debate too closely.

What I gathered he said, or was getting at is Griffin is an absolute beast in college, he doesn't run into guys with his size and strength too often, so it will be interesting seeing how he translates to the NBA. I personally think he'll translate fine and can be a Boozer level of PF, 18/10 with a possibility of being 21/11. Griffin looks to be a better athlete, while Boozer is more refined, but they're both intelligent, good rebounders, can't shoot free throws, and need to improve their defense. Wolves might be the only team in the early lottery that's not praying they get him. No knock on him, they're just already set on the 6'9" 250lb PF. Griffin obviously has more athleticism in his game, but ideally our third big would be a 7 foot shot blocker and rebounder who can erase the mistakes of our poor perimeter defense.

I think it's because of that and the talents that Rubio does have that makes Ricky Rubio the obvious pick at #1 for the Wolves unless there's a pre-arranged trade.

The whole thing of course goes to hell if Rubio doesn't come out, the Wolves get the 1st pick, and no trade can be made.

And when I say trade, I mean of any of the three; Jefferson, Love, or Griffin.

[Krapinsky]

I think Big Al is pretty much untouchable. Don't get me wrong, there are a number of players I would be willing to trade him for, but teams of those players probably say no. And yes, I think Al has become our franchise player even though he hasn't helped us win yet.

[Devilzsidewalk]

Griffin isn't better than Durant. That's saying a lot for me because up until recently I pretty much hated Durant.

No doubt about that. Durant was a new breed, something special. But apparently Devilz wouldn't have taken him because the only thing you can count on to translate is court vision.

I don't recall Devilz saying he would have passed on Durant, but then again I admit to not following that debate too closely.

Durant was never mentioned, I was a huge Durant fan. Being 6'10" with Mr Fantastic arms and unlimited range brings something that the NBA can't defend. Being 6'9 with tons of strength and athleticism in the paint is something that puts you up there and better and most, but doesn't make you unique. Is JJ Hickson going to be wowed by Blake Griffin's athletic gifts? You can put Hickson on Griffin and make him work. You can't really put anybody on Durant that he's not going to have a length or speed advantage on.

[Krapinsky]

On another note--

I'm wondering if Rubio has a chance to drop to us at 5 or 6 based on his game not translating well to individual workouts.