College players thread/ Draft Related thread

[deeney0]

Griffin this year is probably a better prospect than Beasley last year.

Nah, he just seems that way because he's so far ahead of everyone else. For one thing, gotta remember that he's a Soph. Griffin isn't having the year Beasley or Rose had last year. Not close imo. I guess you can argue Griffin over Love, Mayo, Westbrook, Gordon, Gallinari, Alexander, and Augustin. Of the Freshman on that list (Love, Mayo, Gordon, and Gallinari is that age), they all outshined Griffin and were listed ahead of him in mocks when Griffin was still being projected as coming out in 2008. Sure, he's dominating this year, but so would any of those guys if they'd stayed in school. Hard to compare Gallinari, of course, so perhaps Griffin over him is O.K.

Westbrook was a weird pick that is obviously working quite well. I never saw it at UCLA, in YouTube clips, in reading about him. I thought he'd fall to at least 10. I probably would have picked Griffin over him as a prospect, but I would have been wrong.

Blake Griffin is not Tim Duncan. Dominance in college basketball, especially as a non-freshman, is not what it used to be. The competition isn't what it was 10 years ago. (Tangent, but that's why people should be a lot more wary of Curry than they seem to be.) Blake Griffin is not even Brook Lopez. The problem is size. Blake is no bigger than Al. That'll cut it in the Big 12, but in the NBA to succeed when you're built like Blake is, you've got to play like Al, and the players with the talent to do that are few and far between.

I see a lot of people comparing him to Amare, but he doesn't have Amare's jumpshot or FT%, which are at least 50% of why Amare is successful.

[Worm Guts]

Griffin this year is probably a better prospect than Beasley last year.

Nah, he just seems that way because he's so far ahead of everyone else. For one thing, gotta remember that he's a Soph.

It's close, but Griffin doesn't have the attitude issues Beasley has and Griffin isn't a tweener.

[Jonathan Watters]

[

I don't recall Devilz saying he would have passed on Durant, but then again I admit to not following that debate too closely.

No, Devilz never said anything like that. I was just making a point about natural talent. That if you can say Griffin is a question mark because of his athleticism and physicality perhaps not translating well, you can say that Durant was a question mark due to his height not translating over.

That's all I was saying. That strengths aren't weaknesses, at least not when it comes to elite natural tools.

What I gathered he said, or was getting at is Griffin is an absolute beast in college, he doesn't run into guys with his size and strength too often, so it will be interesting seeing how he translates to the NBA. I personally think he'll translate fine and can be a Boozer level of PF, 18/10 with a possibility of being 21/11. Griffin looks to be a better athlete, while Boozer is more refined, but they're both intelligent, good rebounders, can't shoot free throws, and need to improve their defense.

I see similarities to Boozer, definitely. I also see similarities to Al Horford, Elton Brand and Karl Malone. I think he fits in that spectrum somewhere, and I think we can all agree that this is a good spectrum to be in.

As far as Boozer goes, I think Griffin is on a completely different level as an athlete. I also don't think you should be making the defensive comparison there, as Boozer is a known defensive softie 7 years into his career and Griffin, at age 20, doesn't even have a rep as a poor defender. Is it something he can work on? Sure, as it is for even the best defensive rookies. Is it a major issue? Absolutely not in any way, shape or form. Certainly no way that Boozer's defense should come out as the comparison. That's absurdism.

Once again, I'll point out the hypocrisy of judging Griffin on some mythical defensive issues that as far as I can tell are simply a fan's overactive imagination, and blowing off the defensive issues Kevin Love has playing next to Al Jefferson as if they are nothing.

Wolves might be the only team in the early lottery that's not praying they get him. No knock on him, they're just already set on the 6'9" 250lb PF. Griffin obviously has more athleticism in his game, but ideally our third big would be a 7 foot shot blocker and rebounder who can erase the mistakes of our poor perimeter defense.

No doubt about it.

I think it's because of that and the talents that Rubio does have that makes Ricky Rubio the obvious pick at #1 for the Wolves unless there's a pre-arranged trade.

The whole thing of course goes to hell if Rubio doesn't come out, the Wolves get the 1st pick, and no trade can be made.

Yeah, that's the other thing. It is far from guaranteed that he'll be in the draft, although I am listening to the rumors because of what happened with the last big Fegan international "will he/won't he", Yi.

[deeney0]

Gerald Henderson isn't getting enough discussion here. I think that's because people are satisfied with the idea of Foye (and/or Brewer) at 2 and drafting a PG (and maybe those people are right), but Henderson is what the Wolves need in a 2. Long, good shooter, excellent defender, high BBIW, and great overall awareness (something this team has little/none of). Henderson probably isn't going to be an All-Star, he's not going to be an 18ppg scorer, but he's going to be a very solid starter. He'd be a great consolation price to missing out of Harden.

It all comes down to what kind of team the Wolves are trying to build. I don't think they need elite scoring guards to surround Al and Love (though that would be nice); they just need the right kind of players.

[Jonathan Watters]

Durant was never mentioned, I was a huge Durant fan. Being 6'10" with Mr Fantastic arms and unlimited range brings something that the NBA can't defend. Being 6'9 with tons of strength and athleticism in the paint is something that puts you up there and better and most, but doesn't make you unique. Is JJ Hickson going to be wowed by Blake Griffin's athletic gifts? You can put Hickson on Griffin and make him work. You can't really put anybody on Durant that he's not going to have a length or speed advantage on.

You don't think you can make Durant work? Come on now...

The point stands. Strengths aren't weaknesses. Griffin is extremely likely going to be a dominant physical presence in the NBA, for a very long time. I won't say he's as unique as Durant, as that would also be absurd. But it is certainly the same principle, and could have been argued the same way at the time.

And JJ Hickson is not the athlete that Blake Griffin is, nor will he ever be. Once again, please quit making references to things we both know aren't true.

[Jonathan Watters]

Griffin this year is probably a better prospect than Beasley last year.

Nah, he just seems that way because he's so far ahead of everyone else.

Agreed to a certain extent. Beasley would have gone ahead of Griffin last year.

For one thing, gotta remember that he's a Soph. Griffin isn't having the year Beasley or Rose had last year. Not close imo. I guess you can argue Griffin over Love, Mayo, Westbrook, Gordon, Gallinari, Alexander, and Augustin. Of the Freshman on that list (Love, Mayo, Gordon, and Gallinari is that age), they all outshined Griffin and were listed ahead of him in mocks when Griffin was still being projected as coming out in 2008. Sure, he's dominating this year, but so would any of those guys if they'd stayed in school. Hard to compare Gallinari, of course, so perhaps Griffin over him is O.K.

There was plenty of talk before the early entry list came out that Griffin was a lock top 5 pick if he did actually declare. He was probably the consensus #4 before returning to school. He didn't dominate the way he has this year, but by the end of the year there was very little difference between him and any freshman in the country. Except for maybe Derrick Rose, who took his game to an entirely different level.

Blake Griffin is not Tim Duncan.

He's not a once-a-decade 7-footer who can instantly average 20+ and provide all-nba caliber defense from day one? You are correct.

Blake Griffin is not even Brook Lopez.

He's not a multi-talented 7-footer, but he'll probably put up similar/better numbers as a rookie.

The problem is size. Blake is no bigger than Al. That'll cut it in the Big 12, but in the NBA to succeed when you're built like Blake is, you've got to play like Al, and the players with the talent to do that are few and far between.

Griffin is far ahead of Big Al in terms of his physical package. It really isn't close. He doesn't need to develop Al's post moves to be a success. That's absolutely ridiculous, thinking a player of Griffin's abilities would need to develop a Top 3 in the league back to the basket game to be a success.

He needs to develop some, but nothing that isn't fairly easy to project given a normal player's development curve.

I see a lot of people comparing him to Amare, but he doesn't have Amare's jumpshot or FT%, which are at least 50% of why Amare is successful.

Amare survived his first few seasons on freakish athleticism alone. He had no skill. Not that Griffin is as freakish an athlete as Amare, but it is silly to imply that he'd need to become as good a jumpshooter as Amare to succeed in the NBA. It is just as silly to assume that Griffin won't improve a substantial amount as a jumpshooter. Not to Amare's level, but certainly a good amount beyond where he is right now.

[Jonathan Watters]

Gerald Henderson isn't getting enough discussion here. I think that's because people are satisfied with the idea of Foye (and/or Brewer) at 2 and drafting a PG (and maybe those people are right), but Henderson is what the Wolves need in a 2. Long, good shooter, excellent defender, high BBIW, and great overall awareness (something this team has little/none of). Henderson probably isn't going to be an All-Star, he's not going to be an 188ppg scorer, but he's going to be a very solid starter. He'd be a great consolation price to missing out of Harden.

It all comes down to what kind of team the Wolves are trying to build. I don't think they need elite scoring guards to surround Al and Love (though that would be nice); they just need the right kind of players.

Agreed about Henderson. If he can put in a good tournament, he'll end up in the Top 10 come draft night. Rounding into a very nice prospect.

[Zeitgeister]

Once again, I'll point out the hypocrisy of judging Griffin on some mythical defensive issues that as far as I can tell are simply a fan's overactive imagination, and blowing off the defensive issues Kevin Love has playing next to Al Jefferson as if they are nothing.

I wasn't understanding this reputation that he suddenly had here either as this bad defender. I haven't seen him play in a little while but from everything i've seen and heard it's certainly not a weakness of his especially if you compare him to someone like Beasley last year.

[Frozen316]

Griffin = like a mix of Beasley and Love?

[jpatrick]

What's going on with this discussion? In my mind, Griffin would have been the third pick if he came out last year, and all he's done is be completely dominant this year. To see how important he is, with him OK is 27-2 and w/o him they are 0-2.

I see him as a dominant rebounder as a rookie. If he ends up on OKC or Memphis or another team w/o a dominant rebounding center and a big hole at PF, I could see him averaging 12 boards a game in year one. His offense will take a little longer because while he's an incredible athlete for a guy that big and has a decent handle, he doesn't have alot of goto type moves in the paint; relying alot on his athleticsm and stregth to score. But he's only 20, they'll develop. The guy I'd compare him to is Amare Stoudemire w/o the piss poor attitude; although I don't think he's quite as tall as Amare. I think he's a better athlete than Boozer or even Karl Malone at the end (didn't see him early in his career).

This year, Griffin will be the top pick unless Rubio comes out and a team desperate for a PG (i.e. us) gets the top pick and can't work out some sort of trade.

That said, last year he'd go after Beasley, not so sure if a "redraft" was done right now whether he'd still go after Beasley though. Durant? He's was and is special.

[Krapinsky]

deeney0 wrote:

Worm Guts wrote:Griffin this year is probably a better prospect than Beasley last year.



Nah, he just seems that way because he's so far ahead of everyone else.



Agreed to a certain extent. Beasley would have gone ahead of Griffin last year.

I don't know about that. You are right in citing that Griffin was allegedly a top 5 lock coming out last year. As a prospect this year? You have to remember Miami picking 2 was not in love with Beasley by any means. Miami, imo, takes Griffin without hesitation. More interesting is what would Chicago have done? With Hinrich still very capable, Grffin would have been an answer to their perceived prayer for a 4. My guess is that if the the Griffin of this years draft were in last years draft he very well may have gone #1 overall, w/ Rose to Miami and B-Sleazy to Minnesota.

[Zeitgeister]

I think a better question would be, if Beasley was still in college and he was playing at a similar level to what he was last year, would he be drafted ahead of Griffin this year? I think in that case, the combine measurements would be what tips the scales. Given that Beasley didn't measure out well at all, and i'm pretty confident that Griffin is bigger then him.

[john2jer]

Who would ever argue that height won't translate over when you're referring to a 6'9"-6'10" SF? That's above ideal size. That's like complaining about having too much money.

Brand, Horford, and Malone fit as well. Boozer isn't the athlete that Griffin is. One of the knocks on Griffin is how far he can step out with his jumper.

I didn't compare Boozer's defense to Griffin's, simply said it's something they both need to work on. Griffin's weak links in his game are FT shooting(although he does a good job of getting to the line), range on his jumper, and defense. Probably in that order. He's not perfect, and as we've both mentioned has work to do. Defense is one of those things that he can improve that'll take him from a Boozer or a Brand level talent to more than just a low level all-star. He's shown the work ethic and motivation to improve, so I assume that'll continue. Gotta appreciate that about him.

I don't think anyone blew off Love or Al Jeff's defensive issues. I for one pointed them out specifically when mentioning the need for a 7 foot shot blocker, rebounder, defensive center. But this is similar to the Ben Gordon argument from a few weeks ago. Ben Gordon is better than Randy Foye, but not enough to justify breaking the bank on him when those resources could be better used to fill weaker areas. Same here. Griffin might be a better defender or a better player than our options now, but not enough that it justifies ignoring a position that might be better left completely unfilled at this point due to our options. Interesting, would the Wolves be better playing 4 on 5 than 5 on 5 with our point guard options?

Up until December it was coming across as a guarantee that he wasn't coming out until 2010. Then there's the rumor that he told Jennings when they played that he was coming out. Then they started re-negotiating his buy-out, then the word came out that his team was having financial difficulties. Oh and of course his play lately has been pretty stellar in limited minutes. In the years when big name Europeans have come over, it seems most of their stats come in limited minutes, seems interesting. Just figured if I had one of the best point guards in the world, he'd be getting more than 20-25 minutes a game. But then again, I'm no expert on the European model.

So yeah, no guaranteed, but enough rumblings to keep him in mind and even get a little excited about it.

This will be the year that the Wolves finally catch a break because the consensus #1 is a PF and the last thing the Wolves need, so we'll either arrange a trade or take Rubio and be happy.

Hell, I'd be satisfied to trade Griffin for the #2 and cash if that's the best we can get, but you gotta assume we'd get something slightly above marginal. Mike Miller and Griffin for Rubio and Jeff Green? Mike Miller and Griffin for Rubio, Etan Thomas, and either Javal McGee or Andre Blatche? Just random ideas. I say Mike Miller because we'll likely need to move a wing with Brewer, Gomes, Foye, and potentially another rookie playing the 2/3, Miller's not here for the long haul, and his productive expiring deal would be nice for a contender, or someone further on the rebuilding process, and could bring us back a young piece to add to our rebuilding. A center like McGee or Blatche would be nice, but so would Jeff Green to lock up our 3-spot for the next 10 years.

[Devilzsidewalk]

Once again, I'll point out the hypocrisy of judging Griffin on some mythical defensive issues that as far as I can tell are simply a fan's overactive imagination, and blowing off the defensive issues Kevin Love has playing next to Al Jefferson as if they are nothing.

I wasn't understanding this reputation that he suddenly had here either as this bad defender. I haven't seen him play in a little while but from everything i've seen and heard it's certainly not a weakness of his especially if you compare him to someone like Beasley last year.

he anchors the 52nd ranked defense in the country and averages less blocks as soph than Kevin Love did as a freshman. Seems pretty weak to me, but then again I'm (Please Use More Appropriate Word).

[Jonathan Watters]

Griffin = like a mix of Beasley and Love?

He's not as skilled as either player. But he does fit a position (unlike Beasley) and is a freak athlete (unlike Love). His post footwork is phenomenal, his passing is first-rate. He has an excellent sense of where he needs to be on the floor to get a certain shot off, and when he needs to get there. Hasn't ever forced his game, and hasn't ever needed to. It will be interesting to see what he can do when his team absolutely needs 30 from him.

[Jonathan Watters]

Who would ever argue that height won't translate over when you're referring to a 6'9"-6'10" SF? That's above ideal size. That's like complaining about having too much money.

MY POINT EXACTLY.

[john2jer]

JW, with the Yi comment were you referring to the threat that it was possible Yi wouldn't have come over depending on who drafted him? Obviously that ended up being a lot of smoke as the Bucks drafted him and he came anyways, but Yi's people weren't happy about it.

I don't think you'll see the same thing with Rubio. Sadly that's largely based on politcal reasons. There's no room for politics in sports.

[Jonathan Watters]

he anchors the 52nd ranked defense in the country and averages less blocks as soph than Kevin Love did as a freshman.

Guess what Oklahoma's dEff was when Griffin was out?

Seems pretty weak to me, but then again I'm (Please Use More Appropriate Word).

When it comes to this subject, absolutely.

I thought you admitted you were 100% wrong?

[Jonathan Watters]

JW, with the Yi comment were you referring to the threat that it was possible Yi wouldn't have come over depending on who drafted him? Obviously that ended up being a lot of smoke as the Bucks drafted him and he came anyways, but Yi's people weren't happy about it.

I don't think you'll see the same thing with Rubio. Sadly that's largely based on politcal reasons. There's no room for politics in sports.

No, just that they share the same agent, and that the rumblings started about Yi declaring in a similar manner...

[john2jer]

Griffin = like a mix of Beasley and Love?

He's not as skilled as either player. But he does fit a position (unlike Beasley) and is a freak athlete (unlike Love). His post footwork is phenomenal, his passing is first-rate. He has an excellent sense of where he needs to be on the floor to get a certain shot off, and when he needs to get there. Hasn't ever forced his game, and hasn't ever needed to. It will be interesting to see what he can do when his team absolutely needs 30 from him.

That's my major question on him, well that and his FT shooting. He's shown the determination to improve his game, so I'm not worried about work ethic. But he doesn't seem to assert himself as a team leader, go to guy. Obviously he dominates just cause he's a gifted athlete and playing against boys in comparison on most nights, but he doesn't do it with the mentality SuperStar. Maybe for the good and bad.

His knock on his defense is commitment and fundamentals. Obviously being a good athlete covers for fundamentals, but maybe that's where the Amare comes from? I don't know. But Amare's another great athlete who's a bit disinterested on the defensive end, but that probably just has as much to do with D'Antoni as it does Amare? Or even the jump from high school to the pros?

But, as you said, what if his team needs 30? What if they're down 10 in the 4th in a must win game, is he gonna go Kirby Puckett and throw everyone on his back FTW? Can he become a team leader?

Beginning of the season I was kinda "eh" on Henderson, but as the season's progressed I'm liking him more and more. Does he have a bit of Brandon Roy in him? Solid player that does everthing, with a high IQ, and a commitment to winning? I'd take Henderson over any of Teague/Jennings/Curry with our pick if somehow we dropped to 8th-9th and Tyreke Evans was gone.

My Wolves board
1. Rubio
2. Griffin -TRADE
3. Thabeet
4. Harden
5. Monroe -TRADE?
6. Hill -TRADE
7. Evans
8. Henderson/Holiday