College players thread/ Draft Related thread

[Devilzsidewalk]

I thought you admitted you were 100% wrong?

My fault. I'll let this one go since I can't think of anything more excruciating than arguing with you about basketball. But if it turns out Rubio is a better NBA player than Griffin, I get to cut your balls off and hang them from my rearview mirror like fuzzy dice. If Griffin is better, I'll finally tell the police where I hid that body.

[Jonathan Watters]

That's my major question on him, well that and his FT shooting. He's shown the determination to improve his game, so I'm not worried about work ethic. But he doesn't seem to assert himself as a team leader, go to guy. Obviously he dominates just cause he's a gifted athlete and playing against boys in comparison on most nights, but he doesn't do it with the mentality SuperStar. Maybe for the good and bad.

This is nit-picking, giving what his overall numbers actually are.

His knock on his defense is commitment and fundamentals. Obviously being a good athlete covers for fundamentals, but maybe that's where the Amare comes from? I don't know. But Amare's another great athlete who's a bit disinterested on the defensive end, but that probably just has as much to do with D'Antoni as it does Amare? Or even the jump from high school to the pros?

Where does this "knock" come from? From one line in his DX scouting report that was written a year ago? Come on now...Find me something else that says Griffin is a disinterested defender. Devilz made it up...

But, as you said, what if his team needs 30? What if they're down 10 in the 4th in a must win game, is he gonna go Kirby Puckett and throw everyone on his back FTW? Can he become a team leader?

A question to ask if he were in last year's draft. Not in this year's.

Beginning of the season I was kinda "eh" on Henderson, but as the season's progressed I'm liking him more and more. Does he have a bit of Brandon Roy in him? Solid player that does everthing, with a high IQ, and a commitment to winning? I'd take Henderson over any of Teague/Jennings/Curry with our pick if somehow we dropped to 8th-9th and Tyreke Evans was gone.

It still cracks me up, looking at the guys we could potentially take just a few picks after where Griffin is going to go...and we are talking about Griffin's poor defense and BBIQ? Seriously? It's a freaking joke...

[Jonathan Watters]

I thought you admitted you were 100% wrong?

My fault. I'll let this one go since I can't think of anything more excruciating than arguing with you about basketball.

Sorry for confusing you with the facts. I can understand how those cruel, heartless facts can make you feel sometimes. Maybe you can fantasize in some new ones?

But if it turns out Rubio is a better NBA player than Griffin, I get to cut your balls off and hang them from my rearview mirror like fuzzy dice. If Griffin is better, I'll finally tell the police where I hid that body.

Too bad we both know that Griffin vs Rubio isn't what I'm ridiculing you about. But keep trying to swing the discussion into something that doesn't make you look like a complete fool.

If Blake Griffin proves to be a questionable defender with questionable BBIQ, then and only then do you have me.

If he doesn't ( he won't) you can count on me being here to make fun of you until the day he retires.

So please, keep it up. I'm having a blast...

[Krapinsky]

Henderson is more Dahntay Jones than Brandon Roy.

[john2jer]

"It still cracks me up, looking at the guys we could potentially take just a few picks after where Griffin is going to go...and we are talking about Griffin's poor defense and BBIQ? Seriously? It's a freaking joke..."

Might have to explain that a little better. If I'm reading it right, my response is no one's considering those guys over Griffin. Only guy that's getting any consideration over Griffin is Rubio. Once the draft order is set you can either eliminate 2 guys, or narrow it down to 2 guys.

Henderson has a lot of great qualities, but he's not Blake Griffin. Although I wouldn't be completely shocked if Henderson ended up being a Brandon Roy and Griffin ended up being Elton Brand, I'd prefer Henderson if that was the case, but that might get you shot at draft time. At that time it's all about value, you draft Griffin and trade him for Henderson and the key to the city, if that's really your belief. Just a random scenario. My draft board was based on value after the 2nd pick, not who I actually prefer as players, otherwise Jordan Hill would probably drop on my board.

Because you asked, and because I'm bored at work.

Negatives:


Lacks polished offensive skills
No real post moves yet
Shaky jump shot
Poor free-throw shooter
An uncommitted defender
Relies mostly on strength and athleticism
Injury concerns about knees

People of course are going to nitpick on Griffin because it's the #1 pick of the draft. That ideally goes to someone you can build your franchise around. They're going to be harder on people in line for that pick than someone who could potentially go 8th. Doesn't mean the guy going 8th is better than the guy going 1st, that's assanine. I'm pretty sure I always spell assanine wrong, but I have no interest in looking it up after Jeff Foxworthy ruined the word for me.

[deeney0]

Henderson is more Dahntay Jones than Brandon Roy.

Nah, he's neither. Hoopshype says Courtney Lee, DX says Finley/Dahantay Jones, NBADraft.net says Sprewell. I don't like any of those, Larry Hughes before he sucked is a good comparison I think. Raja Bell maybe.


john2jer is right, no one would really entertain the idea of anything with #1 other than Rubio or trading the pick to someone who would take Griffin. But the reality is that the Wolves would probably pick 5-9, so most of this thread has been and should be devoted to players like Harden, Teague, Jennings, Henderson, Curry, Thabeet, etc., etc., and not to Griffin. Griffin/Rubio is academic, since the Wolves probably won't have that option anyway.

[Krapinsky]

Henderson is more Dahntay Jones than Brandon Roy.

Nah, he's neither. Hoopshype says Courtney Lee, DX says Finley/Dahantay Jones, NBADraft.net says Sprewell. I don't like any of those, Larry Hughes before he sucked is a good comparison I think. Raja Bell maybe.


john2jer is right, no one would really entertain the idea of anything with #1 other than Rubio or trading the pick to someone who would take Griffin. But the reality is that the Wolves would probably pick 5-9, so most of this thread has been and should be devoted to players like Harden, Teague, Jennings, Henderson, Curry, Thabeet, etc., etc., and not to Griffin. Griffin/Rubio is academic, since the Wolves probably won't have that option anyway.

I was honestly just going off the top of my head. I didn't check any of those sources. He reminds me most of Jones, maybe a little more just b/c he is a former Dukie. I don't think he's as quick as either Sprewell or Lee.

[Jonathan Watters]

"It still cracks me up, looking at the guys we could potentially take just a few picks after where Griffin is going to go...and we are talking about Griffin's poor defense and BBIQ? Seriously? It's a freaking joke..."

Might have to explain that a little better. If I'm reading it right, my response is no one's considering those guys over Griffin. Only guy that's getting any consideration over Griffin is Rubio. Once the draft order is set you can either eliminate 2 guys, or narrow it down to 2 guys.

It's just ironic, that's all.

A balanced list of weaknesses, if we are going to harp on Blake Griffin's defense:

Tyreke Evans: EVERYTHING
Jrue Holiday: EVERYTHING
Gerald Henderson: EVERYTHING
Jordan Hill: EVERTYHING

Now, Griffin's supposed defensive issues have been put into a balanced context.

Henderson has a lot of great qualities, but he's not Blake Griffin. Although I wouldn't be completely shocked if Henderson ended up being a Brandon Roy and Griffin ended up being Elton Brand, I'd prefer Henderson if that was the case, but that might get you shot at draft time.

Folks, this is a personal opinion phrased as an opinion. Amazing.

Because you asked, and because I'm bored at work.

Negatives:


Lacks polished offensive skills
No real post moves yet
Shaky jump shot
Poor free-throw shooter
An uncommitted defender
Relies mostly on strength and athleticism
Injury concerns about knees

I'm pretty sure this scouting report has been up there since before the season starter, but I guess I could be wrong...

People of course are going to nitpick on Griffin because it's the #1 pick of the draft. That ideally goes to someone you can build your franchise around. They're going to be harder on people in line for that pick than someone who could potentially go 8th. Doesn't mean the guy going 8th is better than the guy going 1st, that's assanine. I'm pretty sure I always spell assanine wrong, but I have no interest in looking it up after Jeff Foxworthy ruined the word for me.

Yes, you are right. He is going to be nitpicked.

And he is going to be an excellent defender in the NBA, as DX and every other scouting service worth anything happily admit.

[john2jer]

Defensively, Griffin still appears to rely too much on his physical tools, even if his intensity looks a bit better than it did last season. He has a tendency to gamble for steals excessively (his quickness makes it quite easy for him to jump in front of post-entry passes) and seems to give up position too easily on the block (possibly to avoid cheap fouls), but there is regardless no doubt whatsoever that he should be able to develop into an excellent defender in time if he wants to thanks to his terrific physical tools, smarts and intensity.

I think that sums up my thoughts as well. Unfortunately they haven't updated anything since 12/11/08 on him.

[deeney0]

Folks, this is a personal opinion phrased as an opinion. Amazing.

And he is going to be an excellent defender in the NBA, as DX and every other scouting service worth anything happily admit.

And there's one phrased as a fact. An adequate defender I can see. A good defender is within the realm of possibility. But excellent? I think the evidence points to it being less likely than not. There are so few truly giften two-way big men in the NBA, and most of the players whom Blake compares most to physically are relatively lousy on the defensive end. Sure, it's possible that he ends up an excellent defender, but you're making a lot of assumptions to get him there.

[Rakocevicftw]

I think, in a roundabout way, that we're close to dealing with a fascinating issue here.

Griffin is an AMAZING talent. And if Rubio is not in (and I'll get to Rubio in a minute), Griffin is a mile ahead of every other prospect in the draft.

Some of the people in the thread are missing the boat with Griffin here. There are very few power forwards in NBA history that really compare to Griffin. Perhaps the young Karl Malone is a good example. But Malone was more of a tank, while Griffin is quicker and a ballhandler.

Honestly, Griffin reminds me of a less skilled LeBron James. Which, really, is a huge compliment! Guys like Kenyon Martin dominated in college with similar athleticism, but Griffin has fluidity and ballhandling that those guys just didn't/don't. It's not just that Griffin is dunking on everyone-- it's that he can get the ball almost anywhere, take his guy off the dribble and barrel to the rim in a way that only LeBron is doing currently. Perhaps Shawn Kemp is a good comparison.

So we have this awesome, freakish player. And we already have 2 PFs. Two really good ones. What to do if we get the first pick? It really is a unique problem. The easy thing is to somehow trade down and get Rubio... but that seems highly unlikely. We'd have so little leverage in that situation that it would probably end up being something like Rubio+ a first rounder. Trading down is a risky, risky thing-- people here still aren't comfortable with the Love deal, and Portland trading down for Webster was an absolute disaster. It's especially risky when it's obvious that you're trading down from the star range to the possible star range.

Considering all those risks, should we pick Rubio number 1 if it seems we won't be able to trade down for him? Honestly, I think Rubio is awesome enough for this to be okay-- he has more question marks for me than Griffin, but he's a freak too.

[Jonathan Watters]

Folks, this is a personal opinion phrased as an opinion. Amazing.

And he is going to be an excellent defender in the NBA, as DX and every other scouting service worth anything happily admit.

And there's one phrased as a fact. An adequate defender I can see. A good defender is within the realm of possibility. But excellent? I think the evidence points to it being less likely than not. There are so few truly giften two-way big men in the NBA, and most of the players whom Blake compares most to physically are relatively lousy on the defensive end. Sure, it's possible that he ends up an excellent defender, but you're making a lot of assumptions to get him there.

Elton Brand. Karl Malone. Al Horford. Yep, all crappy defenders. What was I thinking?

[Rakocevicftw]

I'm preferring to ignore the nightmare scenario of rubio not being in.

[Jonathan Watters]

Sure, it's possible that he ends up an excellent defender, but you're making a lot of assumptions to get him there.

Let's see: he's got ideal size for the position, freakishly strong, long wingspan, and high-level hops. Not only that, he relishes physical contact and has made his living off of physical play.

So we'd have to ASSUME that a guy who makes great use out of his physical tools in every other aspect of the game won't ever learn how to do the same at the defensive end. We have to ASSUME a guy who is universally praised for his work ethic will ignore that end of the floor. We have to ASSUME a guy who relishes physical contact in all aspects of the game will have that completely disappear when playing defense.

And I'm making assumptions?

How much disgraceful rationale can we get on one thread?

And, FYI, I've presented evidence for my opinion on Griffin throughout this thread - I've referenced his style of play, his physical characteristics, other scouting reports, his obvious NBA comparisions, and his team's defensive struggles without him.

Your claim that my opinions are phrased as facts when other posters on this thread are treating reality as their own personal whoopee cushion is a slap in the face both to me and to common sense.

You shouldn't be surprised for a moment that I come off as condescending and rude when I have to deal with this garbage on a daily basis.

[Krapinsky]

How's this for a Griffin comparison?

Larry Johnson + 3 inches?

[deeney0]

Elton Brand. Karl Malone. Al Horford. Yep, all crappy defenders. What was I thinking?

Al Jefferson. Carlos Boozer. Antonio McDyess. You can make arguments, but you don't have a crystal ball.

You shouldn't be surprised for a moment that I come off as condescending and rude when I have to deal with this garbage on a daily basis.

Somebody needs a hug. And a xanax.

[Zeitgeister]

How's this for a Griffin comparison?

Larry Johnson + 3 inches?

I like that comparison. Larry Johnson was one of my favorite players growing up its too bad his career was altered by injury.

[Jonathan Watters]

Elton Brand. Karl Malone. Al Horford. Yep, all crappy defenders. What was I thinking?

Al Jefferson. Carlos Boozer. Antonio McDyess.

Griffin is already way more athletic than Jefferson, and bulkier than McDyess. They aren't valid comparisons, other than both are NBA players and happen to play the same position as Griffin. Of course, you already know this. You've composed a 3 player list of PF's that don't play great defense. What do you think you are proving?

You can make arguments, but you don't have a crystal ball.

If you can't distinguish between "hasn't happened yet" and "need a crystal ball", you can pretty much "argue" whatever you want.

Also, way to respond to my arguments about the assumptions you are making in claiming he won't be an excellent defender. That's the way to debate in a legitimate manner - when you are beat, just ignore it and focus in on something else.

[Jonathan Watters]

Griffin is already way more athletic than Jefferson,

And I assume this is the point where somebody starts ranting about how Griffin isn't "that much" more athletic than Big Al.

Carry on with the gong show...

[princeofpalace]

Elton Brand. Karl Malone. Al Horford. Yep, all crappy defenders. What was I thinking?

Al Jefferson. Carlos Boozer. Antonio McDyess.

Griffin is already way more athletic than Jefferson, and bulkier than McDyess. They aren't valid comparisons, other than both are NBA players and happen to play the same position as Griffin. Of course, you already know this. You've composed a 3 player list of PF's that don't play great defense. What do you think you are proving?

You can make arguments, but you don't have a crystal ball.

If you can't distinguish between "hasn't happened yet" and "need a crystal ball", you can pretty much "argue" whatever you want.

Also, way to respond to my arguments about the assumptions you are making in claiming he won't be an excellent defender. That's the way to debate in a legitimate manner - when you are beat, just ignore it and focus in on something else.

Dice actually plays good defense though