Kings/ Cavs

[Sacramento_King]

What's ridiculous is people consistently giving Martin a pass, making excuses for him and treating him like he can do no wrong. Many of those same people would (and do) quickly jump all over every other player on the roster when they make mistakes...but it seems like Martin can do no wrong. It would be somewhat humorous if it weren't for the fact that that it's blatant hypocrisy.

If me and Wolfay are the only ones willing to be openly critical of Martin's flaws, then so be it. I've personally never cared much about being a conformist and don't see a reason to start now by being part of the Martin Fanboy In-group.

So because we disagree with you, we are fanboys? When we don't agree with who you like, are we haters? I agree that Martin is soft. I also agree that he isn't an end of game finisher. I just am not going to blame him because he didn't know BJax was hurt and come get the ball from him. I do agree, he needs to learn to finish games. Some people have it and some don't. Martin probably just won't be that guy. Like others have said, he is a great #2 option. 5 seconds left, you get the ball 35 feet out guarded by Lebron James, would have been a incredible play to make the basket.

[10B10]

And both of you are sounding ridiculous, Martin is a great player and im sure I could go back into other game threads and find comments made by both of you suggesting it, The fact is without a doubt that Martin is a second option without a 1st option in front of him, that is hardly Martins fault.

What's ridiculous is people consistently giving Martin a pass, making excuses for him and treating him like he can do no wrong. Many of those same people would (and do) quickly jump all over every other player on the roster when they make mistakes...but it seems like Martin can do no wrong. It would be somewhat humorous if it weren't for the fact that that it's blatant hypocrisy.

If me and Wolfay are the only ones willing to be openly critical of Martin's flaws, then so be it. I've personally never cared much about being a conformist and don't see a reason to start now by being part of the Martin Fanboy In-group.

Well, you two aren't. There are plenty of people on here that agree and aren't constantly making excuses for him, but also realize that he does bring something worthwhile to the table. We are all sick of him, but he is stuck in a situation where he will constantly be disappointing because he is unfortunately the best player on the team. We are also the worst team in the league - that may have a little to do with it.

You guys are really just frustrating each other. Martin did not play terrible last night, but he made several grave errors down the stretch. Grave errors he has made before. Some of us need to realize that he isn't worthless and some need to realize that he is far from immune to criticism for his play last night and throughout the season. Martin is on the team, he is a second option player, we are the worst team in the league. Unfortunately, he is not going to become a superstar any time soon. We've spent plenty of time yacking about his flaws and his strengths, and that debate never really changes.

[murray]

What's ridiculous is people consistently giving Martin a pass, making excuses for him and treating him like he can do no wrong. Many of those same people would (and do) quickly jump all over every other player on the roster when they make mistakes...but it seems like Martin can do no wrong. It would be somewhat humorous if it weren't for the fact that that it's blatant hypocrisy.

If me and Wolfay are the only ones willing to be openly critical of Martin's flaws, then so be it. I've personally never cared much about being a conformist and don't see a reason to start now by being part of the Martin Fanboy In-group.

So because we disagree with you, we are fanboys? When we don't agree with who you like, are we haters? I agree that Martin is soft. I also agree that he isn't an end of game finisher. I just am not going to blame him because he didn't know BJax was hurt and come get the ball from him. I do agree, he needs to learn to finish games. Some people have it and some don't. Martin probably just won't be that guy. Like others have said, he is a great #2 option. 5 seconds left, you get the ball 35 feet out guarded by Lebron James, would have been a incredible play to make the basket.

We are fanboys because we don't agree with someone of power... the sooner you realize that, the sooner you can become negative and hate the kings as well. Or we can focus on the positive, live with what we got, and talk about improving for the future. But he's right, it is easier to just sit back and complain about everything.

[NATHANBIBBY]

What's ridiculous is people consistently giving Martin a pass, making excuses for him and treating him like he can do no wrong. Many of those same people would (and do) quickly jump all over every other player on the roster when they make mistakes...but it seems like Martin can do no wrong. It would be somewhat humorous if it weren't for the fact that that it's blatant hypocrisy.

If me and Wolfay are the only ones willing to be openly critical of Martin's flaws, then so be it. I've personally never cared much about being a conformist and don't see a reason to start now by being part of the Martin Fanboy In-group.

Martin is the teams best player, he's open to more scrutiny then any other players, especially when the team is struggling, and when the team wins he gets more praise then any other player. With the Kings struggling this year has little to do with K-mart He's the reason why we have been in most games instead of down 20 at the end of the 3rd maybe if he was a better player then we would be a better team, which goes for the rest of the roster. So in essence your arguing about Martin not being a superstar talent capable of taking us into the playoffs, which is hyprocritcal in itself because Martin works as hard in the off season as Lebron, Kobe, Duncan, Dwight, Wade and Paul. As do hundreds of other players around the world. The simple fact is that the 6 players have been born to be the best,and that isnt anyones fault at all.

So no im not going to "unreasonably" fault anyone for there shortcomings if they work hard to be where they are but just arent good enough in the end

[KingInExile]

What's ridiculous is people consistently giving Martin a pass, making excuses for him and treating him like he can do no wrong. Many of those same people would (and do) quickly jump all over every other player on the roster when they make mistakes...but it seems like Martin can do no wrong. It would be somewhat humorous if it weren't for the fact that that it's blatant hypocrisy.

If me and Wolfay are the only ones willing to be openly critical of Martin's flaws, then so be it. I've personally never cared much about being a conformist and don't see a reason to start now by being part of the Martin Fanboy In-group.

Martin is the teams best player, he's open to more scrutiny then any other players, especially when the team is struggling, and when the team wins he gets more praise then any other player. With the Kings struggling this year has little to do with K-mart He's the reason why we have been in most games instead of down 20 at the end of the 3rd maybe if he was a better player then we would be a better team, which goes for the rest of the roster. So in essence your arguing about Martin not being a superstar talent capable of taking us into the playoffs, which is hyprocritcal in itself because Martin works as hard in the off season as Lebron, Kobe, Duncan, Dwight, Wade and Paul. As do hundreds of other players around the world. The simple fact is that the 6 players have been born to be the best,and that isnt anyones fault at all.

So no im not going to "unreasonably" fault anyone for there shortcomings if they work hard to be where they are but just arent good enough in the end

WTF! Way to use creative imagination to make a claim that doesn't exist! I have NEVER made any assertion or suggestion that Martin is or should be viewed at a superstar level. I am firmly grounded in the reality that Martin is a very good complimentary player. There is a certain individual who has been posting in this thread who has tried to claim Martin should be revered (at least by fans here) on the level of Kobe, MJ, and Duncan...but that poster was not me.

You are completely misunderstanding my point, which may be because there is a certain poster here who has consistently misrepresented everything I have said just so they can get their rocks off because they get to argue. My only point is that people need to stop protecting Martin by giving him a pass when he screws up and making excuses for him when he does something stupid. I have no pretense that he is anything more than a #2 option. I also have no problem with him as a key (not THE key) future complimentary piece on the team. What I have a problem with is whole attitude that it is taboo to criticize Martin when he does something stupid. Thompson is getting criticized for committing too many fouls, Jackson is getting criticized for being a chucker, Beno has been criticized all season because of his inconsistency, Garcia gets criticized for inopportune mental errors, Salmons got criticized regularly for being a "ball hog" (ie, took the ball away from Martin), and Artest got criticized for standing in Martin's way. Virtually every player has faced criticism this season for their shortcomings...except Martin. Martin has consistently gotten a pass and has had excuses made for him. All I'm saying is that if he's on this team, he deserves to face criticism when he does something wrong.

[murray]

What's ridiculous is people consistently giving Martin a pass, making excuses for him and treating him like he can do no wrong. Many of those same people would (and do) quickly jump all over every other player on the roster when they make mistakes...but it seems like Martin can do no wrong. It would be somewhat humorous if it weren't for the fact that that it's blatant hypocrisy.

If me and Wolfay are the only ones willing to be openly critical of Martin's flaws, then so be it. I've personally never cared much about being a conformist and don't see a reason to start now by being part of the Martin Fanboy In-group.

Martin is the teams best player, he's open to more scrutiny then any other players, especially when the team is struggling, and when the team wins he gets more praise then any other player. With the Kings struggling this year has little to do with K-mart He's the reason why we have been in most games instead of down 20 at the end of the 3rd maybe if he was a better player then we would be a better team, which goes for the rest of the roster. So in essence your arguing about Martin not being a superstar talent capable of taking us into the playoffs, which is hyprocritcal in itself because Martin works as hard in the off season as Lebron, Kobe, Duncan, Dwight, Wade and Paul. As do hundreds of other players around the world. The simple fact is that the 6 players have been born to be the best,and that isnt anyones fault at all.

So no im not going to "unreasonably" fault anyone for there shortcomings if they work hard to be where they are but just arent good enough in the end

Good call Nathan. A skinny overachiever, who was selected 26th overall, is doing what people did not expect out of him. He is not built like a star (size/strength/etc), but continues to work towards it. He should not be expected to be a star, or compared to players that are superstars (and years older). He has worked for everything he has done and continues to.

Is he a super star- no.
Can he be- maybe with the right cast, but thats a maybe.
Can/ IS he one of the leagues most effiecient scorers-yes.
Is he a solid player- yes.

He is the best we got. He is not paid like a star. He is not above scrutiny, but as Nathan said- He is the reason we have been competitive at all this year. This guy deserves our support along with criticism, not just constant hate because he made a couple mistakes (and no pump faking while gaurded by one of the best defenders with the clock running down was not one of them... And not coming to get the ball from Bobby is absolutely not his mistake, and just silly to say).

[Wolfay]

Great post KIE.

It's hard to reason with those that don't operate on reason. They've been arguing for Martin to get more touches, and now that he does, they see him screw up and they're in utter disbelief that Martin isn't what they think he is. They say he's the reason we've been competitive, but hello! We have the worst record in the league! That's not competitive! Again, they don't operate on reason.

[pillwenney]

Wolfay, did you hate on Chris Webber too?

What kind of question is that? I seriously don't understand what you're getting at, but no, I didn't hate on Chris Webber.

I don't think people realize that all Martin can do is freakin' score the ball. He doesn't rebound, he doesn't assist, he doesn't defend particularly well, or anything! He brings nothing else to the damn table. He's not even tough or clutch. C'mon people, it's the Peja Stojakovic saga all over again! People were so enamored with his rapid growth that they don't how numerous his shortcomings are. You do know that if we ever do get that #1 option, his stats are going to go down, yes? He won't be getting to line nearly as much folks and there goes his #1 strength. Do you want to fork over 50 million just to spot-shoot? Y'all weren't so happy when Peja had smaller contract than that to do he very same thing, but I guess all of the sudden y'all lowered your standards. Freakin' hypocrites.

Oh well, I guess KIE and I are alone in this.

Woah, woah, woah. Let's wind the clocks back a year--when Ron Artest was averaging 16.9 shots per game and Kevin 15.0, and that was with a good chunk of Kevin's shots coming without having plays called for him. Yet he still got to the line 9.5 times per game. His efficiency was better than it is this year because, as everybody here pretty much agrees, he is better when not a 1st option. His efficiency is still great, just not where it was last year because the change in situation (I would also blame a fair amount on injuries).

Another thing that having a first option outside of him helps with is his rebounding IMO. I think that could also very well explain the drop in rebounds this year (although he has been improving there recently). Last year he averaged 4.5RPG. That's really quite solid for a SG.

But nobody here is ignoring his faults, as you and KIE seem to be saying. Scoring is his only big strength, but he doesn't really suck at anything else. He's just not particularly great at anything else, and he is very, very good at scoring--particularly off the ball, as a second option. He is better when he doesn't get a ton of plays called for him, and he ends up being the guy that quietly puts up 25.

Another thing that I think is important to note is that he isn't a bad shooter in the clutch. He's a very bad playmaker, but if he gets an open shot without having to create for himself, he has been fine in the clutch in the past. He's also pretty much always made his free throws on the couple times that he has gotten to the line in crunch time. Unfortunately this year, we've gone to him as a playmaker over and over and it has failed. THIS IS NOT MAKING AN EXCUSE. This is saying what he is as a player.

And sure, it's fine that Martin is more open to scrutiny than others. And nobody--I repeat NOBODY in this thread is saying it's wrong to criticize Kevin. Everybody seems to be acknowledging that his play at the end of regulation was very bad and that it has been part of an unfortunate pattern this year. That doesn't mean you blame everything on him. That's completely irrational. Bobby should have called a timeout. To try to force that blame onto Kevin is to show a bias against him IMO. And yes, it's fine to criticize him when he does something stupid. People have been doing it all year--myself and many others here included. The problem I have is using that to completely condemn him as a player.

He's still capable, IMO, of being an absolutely incredibly second option to a ball-dominant player. For argument's sake, let's compare him to Peja. When Peja was at Kevin's age, he took 1.5 fewer shots per game. He averaged nearly 5 fewer points. And that was in a situation where he had Chris and Vlade basically giving him the ball in perfect situations, whereas Kevin is being asked to create for himself. What about Peja at his best--his "MVP Candidate season"? 24.3PPG on 17.1 shots per game to Kevin currently at 24.1 on 15.9 shots per game (and again, Kevin is a much tougher situation for efficiency). Kevin is much better than Peja ever was, and it's because he's tougher, more aggressive, and smarter.

He certainly does have some faults, but his strengths are really worth keeping around.

[murray]

^^^ Great post Mitch. People need to realize Martin is not Peja. He is not that one dimensional. And I totally agree that blaming bobby jacksons mental mistake on Kevin Martin is just unbelievably silly and biased to say that. Its one thing for these 2 to criticize a player, its a whole different thing to just complain and make things up.

[NATHANBIBBY]

What's ridiculous is people consistently giving Martin a pass, making excuses for him and treating him like he can do no wrong. Many of those same people would (and do) quickly jump all over every other player on the roster when they make mistakes...but it seems like Martin can do no wrong. It would be somewhat humorous if it weren't for the fact that that it's blatant hypocrisy.

If me and Wolfay are the only ones willing to be openly critical of Martin's flaws, then so be it. I've personally never cared much about being a conformist and don't see a reason to start now by being part of the Martin Fanboy In-group.

Martin is the teams best player, he's open to more scrutiny then any other players, especially when the team is struggling, and when the team wins he gets more praise then any other player. With the Kings struggling this year has little to do with K-mart He's the reason why we have been in most games instead of down 20 at the end of the 3rd maybe if he was a better player then we would be a better team, which goes for the rest of the roster. So in essence your arguing about Martin not being a superstar talent capable of taking us into the playoffs, which is hyprocritcal in itself because Martin works as hard in the off season as Lebron, Kobe, Duncan, Dwight, Wade and Paul. As do hundreds of other players around the world. The simple fact is that the 6 players have been born to be the best,and that isnt anyones fault at all.

So no im not going to "unreasonably" fault anyone for there shortcomings if they work hard to be where they are but just arent good enough in the end

WTF! Way to use creative imagination to make a claim that doesn't exist! I have NEVER made any assertion or suggestion that Martin is or should be viewed at a superstar level. I am firmly grounded in the reality that Martin is a very good complimentary player. There is a certain individual who has been posting in this thread who has tried to claim Martin should be revered (at least by fans here) on the level of Kobe, MJ, and Duncan...but that poster was not me.

You are completely misunderstanding my point, which may be because there is a certain poster here who has consistently misrepresented everything I have said just so they can get their rocks off because they get to argue. My only point is that people need to stop protecting Martin by giving him a pass when he screws up and making excuses for him when he does something stupid. I have no pretense that he is anything more than a #2 option. I also have no problem with him as a key (not THE key) future complimentary piece on the team. What I have a problem with is whole attitude that it is taboo to criticize Martin when he does something stupid. Thompson is getting criticized for committing too many fouls, Jackson is getting criticized for being a chucker, Beno has been criticized all season because of his inconsistency, Garcia gets criticized for inopportune mental errors, Salmons got criticized regularly for being a "ball hog" (ie, took the ball away from Martin), and Artest got criticized for standing in Martin's way. Virtually every player has faced criticism this season for their shortcomings...except Martin. Martin has consistently gotten a pass and has had excuses made for him. All I'm saying is that if he's on this team, he deserves to face criticism when he does something wrong.

Yeah i probably could have worded that better, what im trying to point out is basicly what you just said, that he's a 2nd option, in my view one of the best there is, Martin and Hawes get criticized by me more then any other players, Because they should be long term players/ important pieces for the Kings, The reson why I havnt been criticle of Martin this game is how he played, we wouldnt not of been up by 14 againts the Cavs without Martin, Heck Reggie Theus would of being calling the shots this game if Martin wasnt injured this year.

So Martin sucks in the last minute of a close game, that is probably something he cant work on or maybe he can it's a tough one, but at least when we have a competitive team we know to not give him the ball