Leon Powe - The Real Deal

[ryaningf]

Pete, you're not being very fair with Big Baby. He's actually as good of a shot blocker as Moore,

Mikki's block per game and block percentage is significantly higher then BBD. I get you like the guy but let's not spread disinformation.

I'd love to see your numbers, Pete, especially when you say I'm spreading disinformation. Here are my numbers, btw:

From 82games.com

Baby Block Percentage: .9%
Mikki Block Percentage: .9% in Bos (1.1% in Sac)
Baby Block Per 48 Minutes: .6
Mikki Block Per 48 Minutes: .7 in Bos (.9 in Sac)

And for the season, Baby's averaging .2 blocks per game, and Mikki's averaging .3 blocks per game. Those don't seem 'significantly higher' than BBD. They seem similar, which is what I said in the original post.

Every time Moore tries to flash the pick and roll, he seems to run over the guy with the ball--he has TERRIBLE body control. Big Baby, on the other hand, has the body control of a ballerina.

Ballerina? This the guy that stumbled into his current injury. hmmkay. He moves okay for a 300lber I will give him that. Problem is he should weigh about 240.

Baby was fouled (it wasn't called), lost his balance, and landed wrong. I'm not sure how that relates to his great footwork and quick feet.

Moore runs the court and finishes better. That's useful mobility. The fact that Moore - new to this defense screws up a few pick and rolls wouldn't place him behind BBD in the eyes of most coaches. BBD is Boston's Ronny Turiaf. I won't miss him when he is gone.

You're right, Moore does have better mobility. I'm not sure if he finishes better. Their 'close' FG% from 82 games is pretty similar (51 to 48 in favor of Baby). Moore gets dunks a whole lot better, but his stone hands also make him turnover prone around the basket. Baby rarely dunks, but he usually catches most everything thrown his way. Overall, though, Moore does have a better offensive repetoire at this point in time.

Moore is new to the defense, so I'll give him a semi-break and not pass my final judgment on his defense. But for his career, he has just about the highest foul rate in the league. He has terrible body control (so far) when it comes to blitzing the pick and roll. And that high foul rate and his bad hands lead me to believe he really doesn't have very good hand-eye coordination. I'm not sure he's that much more useful on defense than Baby. In fact, I think Baby is better--especially when it comes to defending centers.

Moore gives you better shotblocking, mobility, and shooting. BBD gives you more bulk and passing. Which sounds good in theory but the problem is that BBD doesn't do ANYTHING well at the NBA level. He doesn't bring even one single top tier skill to the table. Moore at least brings the mid-range J that people seem to love (especially Doc).

What is most frustrating about BBD is his lack of rebounding. He is built like Danny Fortson but rebounds like Walter McCarty or Mikki Moore.

Pete, all I was trying to say was that comparatively speaking, Mikki Moore and Baby are pretty similar in what they bring to the table. I think Baby's the better player because he defends better and knows the system better, but Mikki is still a very useful piece for the playoff run. To me, Moore is the 7 foot Eddie House because if he's not making his jumper he's shouldn't be playing. Baby, on the other hand, can bang on the other team's center for 5-7 minutes at a stretch and play good defense and it doesn't matter if he's scoring because he's doing something on the defensive end. It's not that I particularly like Baby (I'd vote Powe if I had to choose between the two), but it's that I particularly like defensive players. This is a defensive team and I think we tend to struggle when too many offensive minded players are on the court. Baby's not a great defender by any stretch of the imagination, but he's better than Moore--and that's why I think he should be playing more come playoff time.

As for NBA skill, I think Baby has the same one that Moore does--he can hit the 15 foot jumper. Moore's development is further along because he's 10 years older, but they have the same skill. Baby brings better defense (whether it's blitzing the pick and roll, or post defense) too.

The rebounding part is definitely the most frustrating part of the Baby package. You draw a good parallel to Fortson, though I wonder if Fortson had longer arms.

[billfromBoston]

Really, the only people that have negative things to say about Leon are the ones that are "late to the party". Like what Leon does is so easy that anyone could do it if they just tried really hard. Like his low post skills really aren't significant only that he just "surprises" people. Lets focus on his negatives like his ball handling or his passing. Like they have to be a lot better than his competitors for his size.

Face it the ones "late to the party" were wrong originally big time and now they're throwing scraps of appreciation to hold onto any remaining credibility.

I am far from "late to the party" I just don't cream my pants over a fancy stat line when my team is losing 3 out of 4, I already did that for 20 years.

My take on Leon hasn't changed and likely won't. I was at the ORL game and Leon was actually getting loose early on and when he replaced Baby in the second half the Magic front court was waiting for him and he couldn't get a thing done in the post the rest of the game. Look sure he can go off against Memphis or against a team were they either soft of equally vertically challenged bigs. He can be effective for a time against anybody but once defenders understand what he is doing it is over, he just doesn't have the variety in his game.

But your right things like turnovers and getting your shot blocked and it turning into an easy two on the other end don't matter. What is ball handling and passing in basketball it doesn't matter? Lets trade KG because we have Leon Powe the earl boykins of PFs.

Wrong

If you can't see where his game is developing to, that's your bad...you're allowing GuyClinch to make you put your head in ass...

Powe has true low post skills and we've WATCHED him develop his low-post game throughout this season - he's already using 2 to 3 post moves now and he'll likely have about 5 or 6 options on the block within a season or two.

His face-up game is something he uses just fine in practice and in pre-game warm-ups, so it doesn't take much detective work to understand that this will be an element of his game that is added in time - post play being the far more valuable commodity, especially off the bench, (almost no team has a low post scorer on the bench.)

We all know Baby has come along greatly in 2009 - kudos to him for starting to hit that J and show some consistency...but if you are still trying to sell me on his "versatility" against Powe's "limited" game, I can't take you seriously.

The only thing Baby does with any acumen based off NBA efficiency ratings is hit the UNCONTESTED 15-17 foot jumper over the course of Jan - March....he is not an efficient player overall and for all his flash and sizzle, he isn't good at getting to the line, finishing inside, playing the post, making plays with the ball, etc....

Both players are role players and both are pretty damn one-dimensional - Powe plays the block, Davis hits the J...that's what they are right now...on this team, I like the guy that can score on the block though - both players have value however and Davis has unequivocally shown that he can make a steady contribution as a role playing big.

[AWalkerREMIX]

He should start over Perk...Perk sucks this year...he getting too many fouls..barely plays 5 straight minutes...

I'm hoping that you're being sarcastic. This is Perk's best season by far.

[MyInsatiableOne]

The only thing Baby does with any acumen based off NBA efficiency ratings is hit the UNCONTESTED 15-17 foot jumper over the course of Jan - March....he is not an efficient player overall and for all his flash and sizzle, he isn't good at getting to the line, finishing inside, playing the post, making plays with the ball, etc....

.

But other than that, he's great!

I agree, though, if you're gonna keep a guy who has limitations/one-dimension, you take the guy who can score down low, rebound, get to the line, and JUMP...

[GuyClinch]

d love to see your numbers, Pete, especially when you say I'm spreading disinformation. Here are my numbers, btw:

From 82games.com

Baby Block Percentage: .9%
Mikki Block Percentage: .9% in Bos (1.1% in Sac)
Baby Block Per 48 Minutes: .6
Mikki Block Per 48 Minutes: .7 in Bos (.9 in Sac)

And for the season, Baby's averaging .2 blocks per game, and Mikki's averaging .3 blocks per game. Those don't seem 'significantly higher' than BBD. They seem similar, which is what I said in the original post.

Disinformation? You got to be kidding. Your the one trotting out truncated stats to 'prove' your point. Though even in those Mikki is still ahead.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... sgl01.html

Mikki Moore's CAREER block percentage 2.3%
Big Baby CAREER block percentage 1.4%.

Both guys are fairly crappy shot blockers but Moore is absolutely better.

Likewise Moore is the better shooter AND finisher. Moore actually gets off the ground so he can run the break and FINISH.

You're right, Moore does have better mobility. I'm not sure if he finishes better. Their 'close' FG% from 82 games is pretty similar (51 to 48 in favor of Baby). Moore gets dunks a whole lot better, but his stone hands also make him turnover prone around the basket. Baby rarely dunks, but he usually catches most everything thrown his way. Overall, though, Moore does have a better offensive repetoire at this point in time.

Moore has 10% of his close plays as dunks. BBD has 3%. Why? Because BBD can't get off the ground. Ya throw the ball to BBD in good position and he can't finish it off. He has to resort to a high degree of difficulty layup whereas a better player can just elevate and dunk it.

Is Moore awesome at this? No - he is actually only medicore. Listen you can play the "stat" game all day but Moore can get up and down the court and finish on the break. He can catch the ball down low and convert that into a dunk. He can hit J's (and he can hit contested ones better then Davis, IMHO).

You don't need any fancy statistics for that just watch them both play. Both are kinda on the bad side of things but like I said Moore overall package places him ahead of BBD in most situations IMHO.

Also the 'stonehands" thing seems weak. They both have the same "hands" rating so far. Moore isn't the next Blount he hustles and catches decent passes well enough for a big. What I have seen is that he is acting a touch too unselfish now as he is likely still trying to fit in.

It will be interesting to see what Doc does going forward once we get guys healthy. Will it be Moore or BBD - or will they BOTH be situational. We will slim down to a 8 man or go with a second unit in the playoff.

Just because some wavier wire guy is as good as BBD shouldn't rile you up. BBD is not that good. I actually think we should sign someone out of the D league to help out a bit while we fight this injury bug. The drop off would be smaller then you think..

Personally I believe they thought BBD would lose weight and tap into his potential and be a Ryan Gomes caliber kind of player. It didn't happen. He is still semi-useful situationally but I think Powe will be our guy moving forward and BBD will become a free agent.

You could take another flyer at some other undersized PF/Bulky SF and maybe you get a Gomes or a Powe again..

Pete

[ryaningf]

d love to see your numbers, Pete, especially when you say I'm spreading disinformation. Here are my numbers, btw:

From 82games.com

Baby Block Percentage: .9%
Mikki Block Percentage: .9% in Bos (1.1% in Sac)
Baby Block Per 48 Minutes: .6
Mikki Block Per 48 Minutes: .7 in Bos (.9 in Sac)

And for the season, Baby's averaging .2 blocks per game, and Mikki's averaging .3 blocks per game. Those don't seem 'significantly higher' than BBD. They seem similar, which is what I said in the original post.

Disinformation? You got to be kidding. Your the one trotting out truncated stats to 'prove' your point. Though even in those Mikki is still ahead.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... sgl01.html

Mikki Moore's CAREER block percentage 2.3%
Big Baby CAREER block percentage 1.4%.

Both guys are fairly crappy shot blockers but Moore is absolutely better.

Likewise Moore is the better shooter AND finisher. Moore actually gets off the ground so he can run the break and FINISH.

No need to bring the attitude, Pete. I only mentioned 'disinformation' because that's how you labeled my initial post. And if you remember, all I said in that post was that Baby and Moore are similarly talented (or untalented) shot blockers...and then in my next post showed you why using numbers...if you look at their numbers this year, they're virtually neck-and-neck in the shot block department.

Sure, if you go by career stats, Moore has an edge....but Moore been performing well below his career block stats for 2 seasons now (while improving his FG %), so I'm not sure what the use is in using career stats that are no longer indicative of what Moore brings to the table.

You're right, Moore does have better mobility. I'm not sure if he finishes better. Their 'close' FG% from 82 games is pretty similar (51 to 48 in favor of Baby). Moore gets dunks a whole lot better, but his stone hands also make him turnover prone around the basket. Baby rarely dunks, but he usually catches most everything thrown his way. Overall, though, Moore does have a better offensive repetoire at this point in time.

Moore has 10% of his close plays as dunks. BBD has 3%. Why? Because BBD can't get off the ground. Ya throw the ball to BBD in good position and he can't finish it off. He has to resort to a high degree of difficulty layup whereas a better player can just elevate and dunk it.

Yeah, that's true, no denying that--Moore gets many more dunk opportunities because of length and jumping ability.

I'd also add that Baby--while lacking a good vertical--actually has better foot work, better post moves, and a better ability to 'find the blue sky' than does Moore. All Moore can do is dunk and shoot jumpers--the rest of his offensive game is limited (Moore's post up opportunity against Miller last night was an abomination). Baby brings a lot more in terms of dribbling, passing, driving, posting up, etc... Now, those skills often get wasted because Baby's short and can't jump, but they're there and as he gains experience he'll put them to better use...

Personally, I think Baby really turned a corner from Jan-March and I'm excited to see where he can take it. Regardless of what Doc wants from Baby, I think Glen's greatest potential is as a scorer. He's being asked to defend, set picks and rebound, but he's actually a scorer first and foremost. That's the NBA-talent you keep on saying he doesn't possess.

Is Moore awesome at this? No - he is actually only medicore. Listen you can play the "stat" game all day but Moore can get up and down the court and finish on the break. He can catch the ball down low and convert that into a dunk. He can hit J's (and he can hit contested ones better then Davis, IMHO).

You don't need any fancy statistics for that just watch them both play. Both are kinda on the bad side of things but like I said Moore overall package places him ahead of BBD in most situations IMHO.

Also the 'stonehands" thing seems weak. They both have the same "hands" rating so far. Moore isn't the next Blount he hustles and catches decent passes well enough for a big. What I have seen is that he is acting a touch too unselfish now as he is likely still trying to fit in.

It will be interesting to see what Doc does going forward once we get guys healthy. Will it be Moore or BBD - or will they BOTH be situational. We will slim down to a 8 man or go with a second unit in the playoff.

Just because some wavier wire guy is as good as BBD shouldn't rile you up. BBD is not that good. I actually think we should sign someone out of the D league to help out a bit while we fight this injury bug. The drop off would be smaller then you think..

Personally I believe they thought BBD would lose weight and tap into his potential and be a Ryan Gomes caliber kind of player. It didn't happen. He is still semi-useful situationally but I think Powe will be our guy moving forward and BBD will become a free agent.

You could take another flyer at some other undersized PF/Bulky SF and maybe you get a Gomes or a Powe again..

Pete

I'm not riled up about this, Pete, I'm just totally underwhelmed by the Moore era so far. His propensity to make stupid fouls and his matador defense are major turnoffs (though, to be fair, I think the refs have been giving him no respect out there, and he still hasn't learned the defense and so he should improve in that area as well). I like his energy and his hustle and I think he fits nicely as the 5th big man, behind Perk/KG/Baby/Powe. Against certain teams in certain situations, I think he'll do some really good things out there. But I also think Baby is a better player right now. Specifically, he's a better scorer and better post defender against centers. But overall, they're very similar players in terms of impact. You seem to think Moore's better. I don't. But I think we can both agree they're similar...and similarly limited in what they bring to the table.

Hell, after watching Bill Walker man-up at the 4 spot the last couple games, I think he's a better backup 4 than Moore or Davis. The guy plays HARD and can use his quickness advantage in transition and on the baseline to wreak some real havoc out there. If the refs would only quit picking on him...

I'd ask you to watch Mikki's hands for awhile. Stonehands is just a metaphor. In reality, they're just small. He gets the ball batted away often because of them. He mishandles pass, or fumbles loose balls. It's a definite weakness for him.

As for signing someone out of the D-League...that would be nice if it were possible. But I think the last 2 seasons have showed that the Cs are not a team that you can simply show up and play on...you need to learn the D and the O before you play (or play well). A D-Leaguer would never get off the bench on this team, especially with Doc Rivers as the coach.

[GuyClinch]

I'd also add that Baby--while lacking a good vertical--actually has better foot work, better post moves, and a better ability to 'find the blue sky' than does Moore. All Moore can do is dunk and shoot jumpers--the rest of his offensive game is limited (Moore's post up opportunity against Miller last night was an abomination). Baby brings a lot more in terms of dribbling, passing, driving, posting up, etc... Now, those skills often get wasted because Baby's short and can't jump, but they're there and as he gains experience he'll put them to better use...

Wow all he can do is dunk and shoot jumpers? Shame. Heck all Eddie House can do is shoot jumpers. All Powe can do is score in the low post. I get what your saying..dude.

What your missing though is that crappy versatility isn't that useful in the NBA. Being versatile only pays off if your a player who can do MUTIPLE things at a high level. KGs' versatility is handy because he is plus scorer, plus shooter, plus defender, plus shot blocker and plus rebounder.

BBD needs to up his game such that he has a "money maker" of a skill. When he does SOMETHING as good as anyone in the NBA then he will be a guy I want in the rotation.

The fact that BBD "post game" which is still below average is better then Moore's "post game" isn't really that interesting. Is BBD's post game an actual STRENGTH in the NBA? I don't think it is.

Pete

[MyInsatiableOne]

^What post game? Davis gets his arse stuffed anytime he's under the hoop!