Rondo and the pick and roll

[Red2]

I'm on record as saying that we will only go as far as Rondo takes us. Last night against the Magic was a great example as Rondo had, in my opinion, a poor game. He put up decent numbers but he had 4 turnovers and never got us into a running game- probably because Orlando was scoring a lot. Still I thought he was passive much of the game. The part of his game that reall bugged me though was his defense on Alston and the pick and roll in particular. IT seems that he was always behind on those plays and never was able to get in front of alston and stay there. I don't think he fights through the picks enough and he is too willing to turn his man loose and let Perk and KG clean it up. The reason Howard got so many dunks and points was because Perk had to come over to pick up Alston after Rondo didn't defend him. I don't know if it's because Rondo is hurt but his D last night was horrible. Also it wasn't anything I hadn't seen before. It seems that he is always playing his man frm behind and allows basically anyone to get to the rim on him. WIth his speed, long arms etc he should be able to stay in front of most point guards in this league. Is it a problem with the way our defense is designed or is it a problem with ROndo? I have to believe that Doc and Tibideau etc have told Rondo to stay in front of his man. Doc pretty much said as much when he said that Perk had to cover up for the dribble penetration. I'd love to hear from someone who sees it differently but to me it's really frustrating to watchi his matador defense and then listen to everyone say that he's a good defensive player. I just don't see it. If he really worked at it he could lead the league in steals.

[Celts17Pride]

Rondo was horrible last night on defense, easily the weakest link on the Celtics defense. He continually let his guy go by him and then attempted to make the steal from behind. He plays defense like that the Celtics lose early in the playoffs. I am willing to cut him some slack because of his two ankle sprains but he has to play better on defense.

I also believe the ankle sprain is why he played almost the whole 2nd half and Marbury played six minutes. Doc Rivers didn't want Rondo sitting on the bench and have the ankle tighten up on him so he kept Rondo out there. I don't expect Rondo to play against Atlanta.

[BillessuR6]

Well, he has both ankles sprained, so that is a little excuse. I think it would be best if he would rest for a few games because if he can`t move he really is a liability. His defense yesterday was the worst I have seen him play. We know we go as he goes and when he plays as poorly as he did yesterday it is really hard for us to get a win. The most important thing for him is to get healthy, IMO.

[GreenDreamer]

Let me get this straight... you want Rondo to stay in front of his man on the pick and roll. You do understand that this is a pick and roll that we are talking about? That someone is actually setting a pick on him? Fighting through picks is important.... to get back to your man. As amazing as this sounds, though, defenders don't actually pass through the man setting the picks. They aren't holograms, and Howard is one of the least "hologramy" players in the league. Someone else, oh say the defender of the man setting the pick, actually has to do something. Otherwise you are throwing a double team at one guy.

Want to know what that is like? Go play a pick up game between you and two other people where you are defending, and the other two are on offense - one ball handler, one pick setter. Then see how many times you "stop" the ball handler. It will get old REALLY fast.

That isn't to say that Rondo has been stellar, because I thought that he could have recovered a little quicker on a couple of plays. Overall, though, he was getting picked off early in the game without another Celtic effectively stepping up to contest the ball handler. This was especially prevalent with Mikki Moore in the game. Moore actually ran through Rondo on one pick and roll. Unfortunately one cannot be fouled by a teammate according to the rules of the game.

The bigs who do a great job of defending the pick and roll are:

K.G. - when healthy. Plays the angles well, is rarely late, and we rarely ever switch when he is the second man on the pick and roll.
Scalabrine - same as above

A really good job: Perk. Isn't the quickest guy, but he plays the angles well. If you noticed, we had him getting Rondo's back on most of the pick and rolls in the second half of the game, and Alston pretty much disappeared.

An OK job: Powe. Has really improved on this end, he used to be bad.

A poor job: Big Baby. He is frequently late to step up, or doesn't realize that he has to step up at all on occasion. I've noticed lately that teams have been running two pick and rolls in succession when BBD covers. If he steps up to the first one, they set up another in quick succession, which he often doesn't recover to. The Bulls butchered us with that one.

A horrific job: Moore. Seriously, I don't think that you can be worse than he is.

Rondo is actually one of the best pick and roll defenders in the league, if not the best, at his position. One of the main reasons we hardly ever switched on pick and rolls, until recently, is his ability to quickly recover if his man is forced to pause. Previously we almost always had someone right there waiting on those plays, now we don't.

Hasn't it ever occured to you that while we constantly use the Rondo/Pierce pick and roll to force switches that we hardly ever see anyone try to do the same thing to us? Why is that do you think? It isn't as if there aren't any other guys out there like Paul. Maybe not as good, but there are other good scoring wings. It is because we defend plays like those very well, and Rondo isn't exactly the kind of guy who can be picked on even if you do force the switch.

So with a banged up K.G., no Veal, and no Powe, we are denied three of our 4 best big man defenders on that play. Instead we have Perk, who you do not want to have taken away from the basket, and our two worst big man defenders on that play (Mikki Moore sucks) out there for big minutes. Not surprisingly, we suddenly suck at it.

Yep, either that, or Rondo coincidentally forgot how to defend when these injuries hit us.

[Kids Are Alright]

Rondo was beat off the dribble in the last couple of games, w/o a good pick...he's letting the man go through assuming the pick's there. Marbury at least looks like he's trying at the top of the key.

[GreenDreamer]

Rondo was beat off the dribble in the last couple of games, w/o a good pick...he's letting the man go through assuming the pick's there. Marbury at least looks like he's trying at the top of the key.

Now, why is Rondo assuming the pick is there? You do realize that Rondo is actually looking at the ball handler, and the assumed pick is coming from behind. One of the biggest issues we are having right now is COMMUNICATION on the defensive end. The bigs have to be singing out what they see, as they have the play in front of them, but that isn't happening. It is the same issue as teammates watching Rondo run into a pick in transition without ever saying anything. In the former he thinks it is there, in the latter he doesn't think it is there. In both cases somebody should have said something.

As for Marbury "trying". He is a bad defender. He has been one his entire career. So now he's going to "try" and become a good one. That ain't happening.

[Kids Are Alright]

I've always thought that Rondo was a great defender, he's looking at a lot of pgs lately. You tell me it's lack of communication....it looks like disinterest or injury.

[cwas2882]

Against someone like Alston, Rondo should go under the pick every time. Alston, generally, isn't a player who's going to beat you with a mid-range jumper off of the pick, he's going to try to get to the basket. Now, if Orlando still had Jameer, it'd be different because he likes shoot that shot if his defender tries to go under. Either Rondo wasn't fairly instructed by his coaches to go under or in the crux of the moment, ignored/forgot it. I'd say when KG is out there with him on the court full time, KG will let him know to go under

[GreenDreamer]

I've always thought that Rondo was a great defender, he's looking at a lot of pgs lately. You tell me it's lack of communication....it looks like disinterest or injury.

His injury isn't doing him any favors, but this recent issue with pick and rolls is 90% on who is out there with him defending them. BBD is a pretty bad defender on them, and has been all along. Hell, maybe this recent stretch will help him get better at them. Mikki Moore is a disaster, and I'm not expecting much from him. He wiped out Rondo on one in the first quarter last night that would have been a borderline flagrant.... if he had done it to someone on the Magic.

Perk is good, though he has his issues at times... but then who doesn't? The thing is that he absolutely doesn't want to be taken away from the basket, and I don't blame him. The pick and roll defense was much better in the second half last night, but that had its costs as that usually meant bringing Perk away from the basket.

Rondo is fighting through his picks, but he can only do so much. They aren't setting those picks for the hell of it, ya know. A pick forces the defender to go under or over, and that slows him down. Howard set quite a few on the kid last night, and Rondo isn't going through him. No one is. That means that somebody else needs to step up. That guy usually is the defender of the man setting the picks. After all, who stays with Rondo on pick and rolls? The whole reason we run the Rondo/Pierce one so much is that it usually forces a switch, otherwise Rondo flies in to the basket. We don't like to switch, but that means that the big man needs to step up... otherwise you are inviting Rondo's man into the paint.

As for communication, that stuff is important. As much as Rondo seems to have eyes in the backof his head at times, he actually does not. People need to talk out there, and that isn't happening consistently.

I think that Rondo could be better, and that his ankle isn't right, but his failings are nothing compared to what is going on behind him. With K.G. hurting, with Veal and Powe out, we only have Perk to rely on. He is the only one capable of reliably guarding the pick and rool, yet he is also our main shot blocker and rebounder. The dude is wearing a lot of hats now.

[Bad-Thoma]

I think Greendreamer covered it pretty well but another point to note is that Rondo regularly both overplays a side to funnel his opponent into the team D and gambles on steals, when KG and Perk are on the floor this works well because they are both very good team defenders but when Moore, BBD, or Powe are in there the rotations don't always make it to where they need to be. I don't know if this is something Rondo is coached to do or not, but while we are hurt I'd like to see him play his man straight up more. I do think the biggest issue is his ankles right now, he seems to be suffering some on his lateral quickness, he can still burn people off the dribble but changing direction seems to be hurting him and taking away some of his aggresiveness.

[celticsnut]

It pretty much comes down to us being one of the worst pick and roll defense teams in the league. Even last season we were terrible at it. Our bigs dont show and our PG's trail the play.

Side Note: Why is it that Pierce gets no calls anymore when going to the basket? 3 or 4 times last night he went strong and it looked a lot like fouls to me yet nothing was called.

[floyd]

It pretty much comes down to us being one of the worst pick and roll defense teams in the league. Even last season we were terrible at it. Our bigs dont show and our PG's trail the play.

Side Note: Why is it that Pierce gets no calls anymore when going to the basket? 3 or 4 times last night he went strong and it looked a lot like fouls to me yet nothing was called.

You're joking right?

[Celts17Pride]

The majority of Howard's points and rebounds last night were a result of bad guard play on defense (mostly Rondo). Alston and others were flying by Rondo and when Perk, KG, Davis and others went to get the guard, Howard was left open for dunks and offensive rebounds. The guards have to play better defense period.

Howard did very little when Perk had the opportunity to play him straight up.

[GreenDreamer]

The majority of Howard's points and rebounds last night were a result of bad guard play on defense (mostly Rondo). Alston and others were flying by Rondo and when Perk, KG, Davis and others went to get the guard, Howard was left open for dunks and offensive rebounds. The guards have to play better defense period.

Howard did very little when Perk had the opportunity to play him straight up.

How often did Alston "fly by Rondo" withoput a pick? I'm actually starting to sense that a lot of people on this board don't actually understand much about defense. That pick and roll basketball is a two man play on BOTH sides of the ball. That when BBD is hurrying after a guard, that he is often doing that because he was late to step up, and that is his fault, and that he is a pretty bad defender on the pick and roll. That when a guy steps up to set a pick on Rondo that, a Celtic (usually the defender of the man setting the pick) actually has to be there. That hasn't been happening. Kind of funny how our pick and roll defense was good when our bigs were predominantly good defenders, and now it sucks when our bigs are predominantly bad defenders.... but that it is actually the fault of our guards. The same guys who were there when it was good.

Really, if Rondo is so easy to get by, why bother even setting those picks to begin with. Just "fly by him" without them? It's easy.

[Celts17Pride]

The majority of Howard's points and rebounds last night were a result of bad guard play on defense (mostly Rondo). Alston and others were flying by Rondo and when Perk, KG, Davis and others went to get the guard, Howard was left open for dunks and offensive rebounds. The guards have to play better defense period.

Howard did very little when Perk had the opportunity to play him straight up.

How often did Alston "fly by Rondo" withoput a pick? I'm actually starting to sense that a lot of people on this board don't actually understand much about defense. That pick and roll basketball is a two man play on BOTH sides of the ball. That when BBD is hurrying after a guard, that he is often doing that because he was late to step up, and that is his fault, and that he is a pretty bad defender on the pick and roll. That when a guy steps up to set a pick on Rondo that, a Celtic (usually the defender of the man setting the pick) actually has to be there. That hasn't been happening. Kind of funny how our pick and roll defense was good when our bigs were predominantly good defenders, and now it sucks when our bigs are predominantly bad defenders.... but that it is actually the fault of our guards. The same guys who were there when it was good.

Really, if Rondo is so easy to get by, why bother even setting those picks to begin with. Just "fly by him" without them? It's easy.

Last night Rondo wasn't going over the pick or under the pick. He was uninterested and indifferent. I am cutting him some slack because he has two bad ankles but Rondo was horrible last night. If you don't see that then you need to watch a replay of the game. Rondo got singled out by his coach Doc Rivers and by Tommy Heinsohn in the post game as being horrible. Heinsohn said it was the worst defensive effort he has ever seen from Rondo and I agree.

[armageddon]

Rondo just had a bad game. He's also playing "cute" defense way too much.

Their pickandroll D is designed for the big to show enough for the pickee to hustle underneath and get back in front of the dribbler. Last night Rondo didn't do this, he frequently just stopped. Lack of energy, lack of desire, lack of focus, lazy, or injured? We don't know.

Also, his opponent was a very good ball handler. Not the type he can get away with reaching from behind. Hopefully, come playoffs, he starts playing more conventional D and stops the cute crap.

[Celts17Pride]

Rondo is one of my favorite players but when he plays horrible I admit it and last night he was horrible.

[Pogue Mahone]

It wasn't Rondo's cover that was killing us. It was the picker (usually Howard), releasing from the pick on a dive to the tin. Pierce and Allen were responsible for that secondary phase of the defense once the shot went up. Pierce battled and put an ass on people. Allen did not. If Ray sticks a hip into Dwight Howard's thigh, those tips and uncontested offensive rebounds don't happen as frequently. Ray often stood right beside him doing nothing.

In fact, you watch as they went to a timeout, Garnett was quite displeased with Ray and gave him an earful.

Great thread, btw. I love discussion on basketball strategy.

[Red2]

take a look a the highlights on sports center or watch the game again and focus on Rondo's defense and if you still think he's playing good D then there's nothing I can say that will change your mind. I think his injuries are part of it but he's been playing this type of D for a while, even before he sprained his anle. I think he takes a lot of punishment and there are times when he just doesn't want to put forth the effort that's required. If Orlando opens up a couple of game lead on us for the 2 spot I would give rondo some rest and see if he comes back stronger. There's no reason why Rafer alston should beat him like a drum

[billfromBoston]

The majority of Howard's points and rebounds last night were a result of bad guard play on defense (mostly Rondo). Alston and others were flying by Rondo and when Perk, KG, Davis and others went to get the guard, Howard was left open for dunks and offensive rebounds. The guards have to play better defense period.

Howard did very little when Perk had the opportunity to play him straight up.

How often did Alston "fly by Rondo" withoput a pick? I'm actually starting to sense that a lot of people on this board don't actually understand much about defense. That pick and roll basketball is a two man play on BOTH sides of the ball. That when BBD is hurrying after a guard, that he is often doing that because he was late to step up, and that is his fault, and that he is a pretty bad defender on the pick and roll. That when a guy steps up to set a pick on Rondo that, a Celtic (usually the defender of the man setting the pick) actually has to be there. That hasn't been happening. Kind of funny how our pick and roll defense was good when our bigs were predominantly good defenders, and now it sucks when our bigs are predominantly bad defenders.... but that it is actually the fault of our guards. The same guys who were there when it was good.

Really, if Rondo is so easy to get by, why bother even setting those picks to begin with. Just "fly by him" without them? It's easy.

Most on this board don't understand team defense - they believe that the primary defender pretty much is always responsible for his guy - oh, they'll say they understand it, but then will give examples that clearly indicate otherwise.

One of my favorites is when a guard breaks free on penetration and the back defender rotates over to cut off the lane and then his man shoots a baseline jumper or gets a dunk and then half the board blames the rotating defender and not the defenders responsible for contain.

Defense is something that the uneducated can't easily understand - it involves rotations and assignments that are often specific to the team itself - like whether the team has strict rules about switching or going under the pick or over....you can't just look at a game and decide who is responsible - you have to know what to look for.

That being said - Rondo's ankles have clearly slowed him down in space - he is getting beat to the opponents strong drive side more frequently - But Davis and Moore have absolutely been atrocious guarding at the 4 spot - they are both better off staying at home than playing the rover role....I pray that Leon gets back up to speed in time for the playoffs so the team has at least 3 competent pick-and-role defenders...