The Unfair Treatment of Ray Allen

[GuyClinch]

The question is really do Pogue's theorized negatives show up in any sort of real world statistic? I don't really see evidence of this.

Though well reasoned and hard to argue with - his overwhelming shooting strength seems to negate these negatives.

Ray is +577 on the year - that's higher then Pierce. His PER against is 12.2 while his PER is 19.2. Does Ray miss rotations, make bad passes, was he overrated as a ball handler. Does he hurt PP game by forcing him away from his strengths? The answer to ALL those questions might be yes. But overall he is still good.

I feel this kind of criticism is very similiar to the kind TA gets. DA explained how people can get down on a guy and notice everything he doesn't do well while missing everything he does right. An eFG% of .577 does in fact excuse alot of sins.

So why is Ray "immune" from criticism? He can shoot the rock. I think this is depressing for the statistician types like Pogue who delight in seeing the hidden aspects for the game. The "hmm can shoot = GOOD." analysis seems to simple minded but it's effective.

I love to play tennis - so I often think of that sport in comparison. Goran Ivansevic won a grand slam.
Did he really do anything at a higher level then his opponents outside of serving? Generally no - but that was enough..

On the flip side much like Goran - when Ray isn't shooting well he REALLY hurts the team. Likewise when the Goran guy was serving like crap he was garbage. People here believe the team relies on Rondo. I don't really agree.

It relies on Ray Allen playing like Ray Allen not like some inferior version of Gabe Pruitt.

Pete

[Spud34]

I don't think anyone cares about someone criticizing Ray Allen for blowing a rotation or making a ridiculously bad pass or two

Sully, I find it ironic that everybody BUT Ray is being discussed on this site. Why can't we have an open discussion, both good and bad, about Ray Allen? Why is it that any time there is anything negative said about Ray, his ballwashers break into a lynch mob? Even those not actively participating start with the "Here we go again, Ray Allen trade scenario ..." or some ****.

Plain and simple, I want to know why the self-appointed board censors prohibit any criticism of Ray Allen. Why is he not a fair topic of discussion? Why is every other player on the roster held accountable (and then some) by posters yet any criticism of Ray Allen has the usual suspects stammering, slamming their keyboards and poo poo-ing any dicussion of Ray's culpability?

(BTW, no, I didn't go to UMass. I have been to three different schools; two bachelors and a masters. Those schools were not located in New England. Jumpman means absolutely nothing to me.)

Poque, let me try and explain why I think you and others on this board get jumped every time you post a negative thread about Rays' play or a trade Ray thread. Speaking for me only.

This is a thread about the good and bad of Ray Allen's game but whatever.

1.) This may sound harsh, but I don't think you really understand the game.
-You are as they say; unconsciously incompetent. Which means, you think you know what you're seeing but when you start talking about it with others, you prove your incompetence and don't even realize it. As an example, you talk about Ray driving to the hoop and taking away's PP place on the floor, spacing, etc.

You had me intrigued until the last part. I will check my posts but where did I say that Ray driving the hoop interfered with Pierce? I said the Ray Allen brings his man into plays that he is not involved in. I have said that Ray is not a good dribble (in terms of creating for others). I have said that Ray Allen likes to operate primarily on the left side of the floor, the same as Pierce (at least traditionally) and that Pierce had to subjugate his game. I have said Ray Allen plays misguided but wherever did I say that his drives to the hoop interfered with Pierce?

Ray takes what the defense will give him, if that's not on the perimeter, then he should drive to the hoop. If he just stayed on the perimeter all the time, he would be a lot easier to guard.

Yet Ray Allen is the least skilled playmaker of Pierce, Garnett and Rondo. At best, Ray is a fourth option when playing with those players. If you attempt to play him as a 1st, 2nd or 3rd, you hinder the entire offense. Imagine, if you will, an alternate, bizzaro world in which one of the purest jumpshooters in the history of mankind is unable to play consistently off-the-ball. That, in a nutshell, is Ray Allen.

In the event you attempt to move Ray up in that chain, one of Pierce, Rondo or Garnett is going to have to play to a weakness. Who, of those four players, is best equipped to operate as a fourth option/safety value/kick-out jumpshooter? (HINT: jumpshooter.)

Isn't it funny how Ray Allen not being able to get his offense going last year in the playoffs was turned into "Rondo shouldn't be playing because he can't play off the ball"? By putting the ball in Ray's hands they marginalized multiple positions on the floor. People wanted to actually sit Rondo (ball-thief, rebounder, shot-creator, playmaker, excellent pick and roll defender, one man fast break, etc) for missing jumpshots when the jumper is just not part of his game. Yet, they were perfectly fine with putting the ball in the hands of a jumpshooter who ignores teammates on the pick-and-roll, kills the natural flow of the ball, etc. And you say I don't understand basketball?

You even go as far as to say, you don't understand why everyone seems to give Ray the benefit of the doubt? Not just on this board but in the media and other teams players and coaches. That should be your first tip towards conscious incompetence. If most people on this board and around the league give Ray the benefit of the doubt, don't you think you may be wrong? Slim chance I know, but just maybe?

If you base your opinions off what other people think instead of forming your own opinions, that is on you. Do I listen to what other people say? Sure. Do I think for myself? Always. Try it some time.

2.) You and a few others seem to have a hair across your Ars about Ray?
-You and others have singled out Ray as the one starter you would like to see replaced on this team
Why Ray? Why not PP or KG? All three have their strengths and weaknesses.

Pierce and KG do get the benefit of the doubt from me because they did buy into the system from day one. Pierce and KG each have a harder to replace grouping of skill-sets. Ray's skill is shooting the ball (which he does very well, I never said he didn't.) Yes, Ray has secondary skills, most notably his ability to eat possessions, but those aren't that difficult to replace.

Why jump Ray for last nights loss and not jump PP for example. The facts are, PP shoots a much lower percentage from the floor at all three spots (2's, 3's, and FT's) vs Ray. He is a turn over machine compared to Ray or KG. He gets his points because the team runs most of it's plays through him, isolation after isolation, etc, etc, etc. PP lost the game for us in the final seconds last night when he went isolation, got blocked by Howard ... Pretty balanced offense.

See, I don't buy into the mythical 4th QTR magic bull-jive. Games are won by putting money in the bank, early and often. Once you start to get the warm and fuzzies, start spouting off about Aura and Mystique .. well, you have become a Yankee fan. All those miscues on defense add up. You look at the end result and say "Paul Pierce!" I look at the ledger along the way and say "Unacceptable defense, Ray. Three possessions in a row? That likely just cost us the game!"

We didn't execute on any of those plays and it cost us the game. Ray was not involved, yet you post a Ray tread and hint he somehow lost us the game because he didn't rotate properly on three plays?!? Huh? Do you understand what I am saying?

Since when can Ray consistently create his own shot if someone is not running at him? Since when is he even a threat to pass out of that creation? Pierce can and does. That is the difference. Well, that and Pierce can actually draw on a foul because he doesn't shy away from contact. And for the record, I hate the pure ISO crap but I do recognize why they do it and I do see why they are doing with Pierce and not Allen.

Ray Allen shoots a higher percentage because the entire team works to get him shots. He is often shooting uncontested jumpers. Pierce creates most everything himself.

3.) Let's trade Ray for ?
-Every single time there has been a trade Ray post on this board, the person(s) they wanted to trade Ray for were absolutely stupid. See the definition of Unconsciously Incompetent for more details. If it's in the 2009 Webster's, they are probably using some of those trade Ray threads as examples.

Stupid because you say so? Stupid because you don't like it? Stupid because, without actually seeing how it would work out, you really can't speak with any authority on it, other than to call it stupid.

4.) Ray's contract is expiring next season and he is going to be traded
-I really hope not. I think Ray gives us a lot on both sides of the ball and unless we can upgrade his position, I don't see why we would do it. His contract expires at the right time to reduce his salary, resign Rondo and keep the starters in tact for #19, 20, and beyond.

Why does the upgrade have to come at just Ray's position? What if a floor spreading, guard defender, who can actually dribble with his head up and find teammates via the pass, is acquired to run with the starters and a create his own shot, sixth man type for the second unit? Is that not a clear upgrade over what Ray Allen brings to the table?

Laslty, let me say this. I love our team. I think each member of the starting 5 know and play their roles extremely well and I for one do not want to see any changes. I think we are extremely blessed to have three or four future HOF'ers on this team and I am enjoying the ride. When it's over, we will all look back on this team as one of the great Celtics teams of the past, and will be glad that we got a chance to see Ray, PP, KG play together.

No one questioned your fanhood.

Pogue, I'm sorry - but the Celtics employ a staff of statistical analytic experts and the team utilizes their input substantially....if Ray Allen was as much a determent as you make him out to be that would be showing up in their analysis.

Conversely, all those folks who invest in season tickets and worship at the altar of Allendom would be less likely to buy those tickets if he was traded. It is not just a talent vs return scenario.

If he's gone during or after next year i'll believe you..until then, I see far more good from his game than ill....

If he is brought back at $6-7M AAV, I will have been right, too.

That was amazing.

[MyInsatiableOne]

Ahh, Mrs. Pierce is back...welcome!

[Havlicek17]

I don't think anyone cares about someone criticizing Ray Allen for blowing a rotation or making a ridiculously bad pass or two

Sully, I find it ironic that everybody BUT Ray is being discussed on this site. Why can't we have an open discussion, both good and bad, about Ray Allen? Why is it that any time there is anything negative said about Ray, his ballwashers break into a lynch mob? Even those not actively participating start with the "Here we go again, Ray Allen trade scenario ..." or some ****.

Plain and simple, I want to know why the self-appointed board censors prohibit any criticism of Ray Allen. Why is he not a fair topic of discussion? Why is every other player on the roster held accountable (and then some) by posters yet any criticism of Ray Allen has the usual suspects stammering, slamming their keyboards and poo poo-ing any dicussion of Ray's culpability?

(BTW, no, I didn't go to UMass. I have been to three different schools; two bachelors and a masters. Those schools were not located in New England. Jumpman means absolutely nothing to me.)

Poque, let me try and explain why I think you and others on this board get jumped every time you post a negative thread about Rays' play or a trade Ray thread. Speaking for me only.

This is a thread about the good and bad of Ray Allen's game but whatever.

1.) This may sound harsh, but I don't think you really understand the game.
-You are as they say; unconsciously incompetent. Which means, you think you know what you're seeing but when you start talking about it with others, you prove your incompetence and don't even realize it. As an example, you talk about Ray driving to the hoop and taking away's PP place on the floor, spacing, etc.

You had me intrigued until the last part. I will check my posts but where did I say that Ray driving the hoop interfered with Pierce? I said the Ray Allen brings his man into plays that he is not involved in. I have said that Ray is not a good dribble (in terms of creating for others). I have said that Ray Allen likes to operate primarily on the left side of the floor, the same as Pierce (at least traditionally) and that Pierce had to subjugate his game. I have said Ray Allen plays misguided but wherever did I say that his drives to the hoop interfered with Pierce?

Ray takes what the defense will give him, if that's not on the perimeter, then he should drive to the hoop. If he just stayed on the perimeter all the time, he would be a lot easier to guard.

Yet Ray Allen is the least skilled playmaker of Pierce, Garnett and Rondo. At best, Ray is a fourth option when playing with those players. If you attempt to play him as a 1st, 2nd or 3rd, you hinder the entire offense. Imagine, if you will, an alternate, bizzaro world in which one of the purest jumpshooters in the history of mankind is unable to play consistently off-the-ball. That, in a nutshell, is Ray Allen.

In the event you attempt to move Ray up in that chain, one of Pierce, Rondo or Garnett is going to have to play to a weakness. Who, of those four players, is best equipped to operate as a fourth option/safety value/kick-out jumpshooter? (HINT: jumpshooter.)

Isn't it funny how Ray Allen not being able to get his offense going last year in the playoffs was turned into "Rondo shouldn't be playing because he can't play off the ball"? By putting the ball in Ray's hands they marginalized multiple positions on the floor. People wanted to actually sit Rondo (ball-thief, rebounder, shot-creator, playmaker, excellent pick and roll defender, one man fast break, etc) for missing jumpshots when the jumper is just not part of his game. Yet, they were perfectly fine with putting the ball in the hands of a jumpshooter who ignores teammates on the pick-and-roll, kills the natural flow of the ball, etc. And you say I don't understand basketball?

You even go as far as to say, you don't understand why everyone seems to give Ray the benefit of the doubt? Not just on this board but in the media and other teams players and coaches. That should be your first tip towards conscious incompetence. If most people on this board and around the league give Ray the benefit of the doubt, don't you think you may be wrong? Slim chance I know, but just maybe?

If you base your opinions off what other people think instead of forming your own opinions, that is on you. Do I listen to what other people say? Sure. Do I think for myself? Always. Try it some time.

2.) You and a few others seem to have a hair across your Ars about Ray?
-You and others have singled out Ray as the one starter you would like to see replaced on this team
Why Ray? Why not PP or KG? All three have their strengths and weaknesses.

Pierce and KG do get the benefit of the doubt from me because they did buy into the system from day one. Pierce and KG each have a harder to replace grouping of skill-sets. Ray's skill is shooting the ball (which he does very well, I never said he didn't.) Yes, Ray has secondary skills, most notably his ability to eat possessions, but those aren't that difficult to replace.

Why jump Ray for last nights loss and not jump PP for example. The facts are, PP shoots a much lower percentage from the floor at all three spots (2's, 3's, and FT's) vs Ray. He is a turn over machine compared to Ray or KG. He gets his points because the team runs most of it's plays through him, isolation after isolation, etc, etc, etc. PP lost the game for us in the final seconds last night when he went isolation, got blocked by Howard ... Pretty balanced offense.

See, I don't buy into the mythical 4th QTR magic bull-jive. Games are won by putting money in the bank, early and often. Once you start to get the warm and fuzzies, start spouting off about Aura and Mystique .. well, you have become a Yankee fan. All those miscues on defense add up. You look at the end result and say "Paul Pierce!" I look at the ledger along the way and say "Unacceptable defense, Ray. Three possessions in a row? That likely just cost us the game!"

We didn't execute on any of those plays and it cost us the game. Ray was not involved, yet you post a Ray tread and hint he somehow lost us the game because he didn't rotate properly on three plays?!? Huh? Do you understand what I am saying?

Since when can Ray consistently create his own shot if someone is not running at him? Since when is he even a threat to pass out of that creation? Pierce can and does. That is the difference. Well, that and Pierce can actually draw on a foul because he doesn't shy away from contact. And for the record, I hate the pure ISO crap but I do recognize why they do it and I do see why they are doing with Pierce and not Allen.

Ray Allen shoots a higher percentage because the entire team works to get him shots. He is often shooting uncontested jumpers. Pierce creates most everything himself.

3.) Let's trade Ray for ?
-Every single time there has been a trade Ray post on this board, the person(s) they wanted to trade Ray for were absolutely stupid. See the definition of Unconsciously Incompetent for more details. If it's in the 2009 Webster's, they are probably using some of those trade Ray threads as examples.

Stupid because you say so? Stupid because you don't like it? Stupid because, without actually seeing how it would work out, you really can't speak with any authority on it, other than to call it stupid.

4.) Ray's contract is expiring next season and he is going to be traded
-I really hope not. I think Ray gives us a lot on both sides of the ball and unless we can upgrade his position, I don't see why we would do it. His contract expires at the right time to reduce his salary, resign Rondo and keep the starters in tact for #19, 20, and beyond.

Why does the upgrade have to come at just Ray's position? What if a floor spreading, guard defender, who can actually dribble with his head up and find teammates via the pass, is acquired to run with the starters and a create his own shot, sixth man type for the second unit? Is that not a clear upgrade over what Ray Allen brings to the table?

Laslty, let me say this. I love our team. I think each member of the starting 5 know and play their roles extremely well and I for one do not want to see any changes. I think we are extremely blessed to have three or four future HOF'ers on this team and I am enjoying the ride. When it's over, we will all look back on this team as one of the great Celtics teams of the past, and will be glad that we got a chance to see Ray, PP, KG play together.

No one questioned your fanhood.

Pogue, I'm sorry - but the Celtics employ a staff of statistical analytic experts and the team utilizes their input substantially....if Ray Allen was as much a determent as you make him out to be that would be showing up in their analysis.

Conversely, all those folks who invest in season tickets and worship at the altar of Allendom would be less likely to buy those tickets if he was traded. It is not just a talent vs return scenario.

If he's gone during or after next year i'll believe you..until then, I see far more good from his game than ill....

If he is brought back at $6-7M AAV, I will have been right, too.

That was amazing.

Amazing? I thought the whole effort just further proves the point. You and a few others gotta problem with Ray and no amount of semi-truths and other crapola can hide that fact.

...AND it's just the beginning, because we will resign Ray for 2 or 3 more years. Should be fun.

[bballcool34]

I think it is time that we all have an actual discussion about what Ray Allen does and does not bring to the table.

It would be more believable that you wanted to have this discussion if you went on to talk about some of the stuff that Ray "does bring to the table"- instead you harp only on the negatives of his game.

It seems whenever someone attempts to make a criticism of Ray's game, valid or not, the poster is jumped on by 5 or 6 other posters. Yet we have had threads that deal with questioning the veracity of Pierce's talent, the up-in-arms reactions to the 5th or 6th big off the bench, multiple discussions about our starting PG, etc.

Why is Ray Allen off limits? Why does Ray Allen get a free pass? Why does Ray Allen get preferential treatment from the online contingent of the fanbase as compared to the support of every other player on the roster?

He doesn't- if you remember, there were many threads about wanting Ray Allen to be traded and such...

Why has there been zero discussion over Ray Allen missing three consecutive defensive rotations last night? If it was a player with less cache, say Gabe Pruitt or JR Giddens, wouldn't there be at least one discussion questioning if he belongs on the team nevermind the playoff roster? Not three in a game ... three in a row. He misses at least three rotations on a game to game basis.

Why are we not allowed to talk about Ray Allen's indifference to putting a body on a man when he is supposed to help? Multiple times against the Magic, our big men stepped up to stop penetration and it was Ray's responsibility to slide in and put a body on Howard/Battie/Gortat. I counted 15 such occurrences where it was clearly his responsibility. He did it once. If a player shoots 1-15, people go on the war path. Yet when it comes to Ray Allen's lack of defense, it gets swept under the rug. God forbid someone points out that it was likely indifference that led to Ray's failure to do so. What is worse; being physically over-matched or being indifferent? At least if you are over-matched there is still a slight chance that something productive occurs for your team.

With Ray Allen you have to look at this- for his entire career up until Boston he's never been asked to play defense- his team has always relied on him offensively and defensively, he's always been on the worst teams in the league: the Bucks and Sonics were bad, bottom of the league team defenses.

Despite that, he's been fairly solid for us defensively- he's not ever going to be known as a defender, but he's competent enough when motivated and even when he's not, he's at worst an average defender. I see no indifference out there in Allen's game- does he try harder on defense against a guy, say Kobe (whom he's had a mini-rivalry with) then other guys- sure he does, but more often than not the effort has been there with Allen on the defensive end.

The opposing shooting guard averages the lower PER out of all other opponent positions and the lowest efg%- so he's not as bad as you are suggesting- the Celtics defend that position the best (and though its for some other reasons as well, Allen deserves some credit for that). Anyways, we're one of the best defensive teams in the league and Allen's not hurting us there,

]Why is it not ok to question the gameplan of running Ray off of picks as a staple of the offense? Why do common sense and points per possession not count when it comes to anything to do with Ray? Do people assume that just because a player has a personal high shooting efficiency, by proxy, he automatically helps the rest of the team?

Does it not help the team? Really? Last year, the team was rated 9th offensively in the league- when we clearly ran less plays for Allen (and Doc himself admitted this).

This year with running more plays for Allen (the coaching staff made an effort to really involve Ray more after the summer), the offense ranks 5th in the league. Yeah some of this can be attributed to the young guys getting better (Perk, Rondo), some to the extra time the Celts have had to mesh, to the concerted effort to take less threes and get inside more- but its also clear that running Ray off picks (as opposed to him dribbling excessively) is clearly helping the team on offense and is at the minimum, not making them worse as you suggest.

Why is it assumed that a player who shoots from outside automatically provides floor space and discipline in maintaining that spacing? Why do people assume that spacing in the post is all that matters? Why is Ray allowed to bring his man into other players' zones, often disrupting the continuity of the play he is not directly involved in?

Allen does provide floor space- that's unquestionable: when Pierce or Rondo drives, one of the main reasons that the defense can have trouble collapsing is because of Allen's presence on the perimeter (as well as Garnett's).

Who assumes that spacing in the post is all that matters? Spacing everywhere matters- its the spacing on the perimeter that allows for spacing in the post- they're not two different concepts or mutually exclusive.

Ray Allen is an individually talented basketball player. He can not/will not play as a consistent off-the-ball option and that hurts overall team efficiencies. He lacks the handles, space discipline and understanding of passing angles to create consistent good looks for teammates.

He plays off the ball enough- yeah, obviously sometimes he drives as well for that hanging pull up in the lane- but thats fairly successful, so I don't see whats wrong with it. I've seen no proof whatsoever that he hurts team efficiencies- he scores on stellar efficiency while not being a black hole on offense.

And he's not nearly as good a playmaker as Garnett or even Pierce- but its not like he's the shooting guard version of Zach Randolph. And he's not too turnover prone either- his handles are sufficient for the touches he gets.

And for all your unfounded and ludicrous talk of Allen consistently disrupting spacing- he shoots outside/midrange jumpers 81% of the time and over 70% of those are assisted- so its not like he's going one on one or anything.

And when he does get inside (19% of the time), 63% are assisted- so once again, its not like he goes inside very often (and thus doesn't disrupt spacing as you seem to think) and since most of them are assisted, its not like he's trying to forcefully create shots for himself at the expense of the team- most of his looks are created by teammates- so he plays off ball most of the time.

For comparison, look at someone like Hamilton a couple years ago- he's notorious for playing off the ball and yet he dribbled inside more than Allen this year and was assisted on a lower % of shots both inside and outside.

If his level of impact was as consistently high as many of his athletic supporters profess, he should be able to carry an entire team without Paul Pierce or Kevin Garnett.

Could you dig up some quotes of people professing such a great degree of support for Ray Allen that it indicates that he can carry an entire team by himself? Should be easy since they're are so many of those supporters around, right?

[sully00]

All I have to say is that anyone who didn't get the Jumpman joke should be banned from the draft thread for not watching the tournament because the "So nobody who works here is named Ray?" commercial was on about a thousand times.

Trust me because I would jump just as ugly on the idea there are no "trade KG" or "trade PP" threads on this friggin board, but constantly the idea of dealing Ray comes up. I don't see this separation between Ray and the other two, to be honest I think Ray has been the best of the 3 this season. Dude shoots his 3's like most shoot their 2's and he doesn't give away what is free, it is called "Shooting" guard for a reason and Ray is one of the best ever.

[SuigintouEV]

I just find it so ironic that the guy who leads the team in +/- is the least valuable of the 5 starters. He's the ONLY player on the team, without whom, the team gets OUTSCORED when he's not on.

People wanted to actually sit Rondo (ball-thief, rebounder, shot-creator, playmaker, excellent pick and roll defender, one man fast break, etc) for missing jumpshots when the jumper is just not part of his game.

'
That's because Rondo affects Paul Pierce's ability to drive, it causes paul pierce to turn the ball over when a guy like delonte west who's supposed to guard Rondo, comes in and digs in the lane. Give me a missed ray allen rotation over a fast break between lebron and west. Rondo's lack of jump shooting also causes Kevin Garnett to be unable to post, and that brings KG to the perimeter.

I hate to break it to you, but the best plays aren't made through rondo. Maybe he'll get an assist on them, but the hockey assist or isolation score is best when it tends to come from one of KG and Pierce. Maybe Rondo is getting 8apg, but that doesn't mean the team is getting better opportunities. The only starter shooting a higher true shooting percentage this year with the ball in Rondo's hands more is Ray Allen, who, according to you, is awful at playing off the ball. Well, Rondo is shooting a higher percentage too, but that's mostly because he's improved, but because he wouldn't be better off as a 4th option with KG as the 1st option.

When's the last time a team won a championship with a ball dominating guard? And how about a great post-up big? KG just happens to be great when he gets a legit post-up, so why is he always hanging around the perimeter? Hint: It's to space the floor because of certain players' (perkins and rondo) inability to space the floor properly. It's not even about what DOES happen on the court - it's about what CAN'T happen on the court. Doc can't afford to dump it into his best offensive player down low with the game on the line, not because that player isn't reliable, but because that player would be forced to beat triple teams in essense. Hence the paul pierce perimeter isolations.

Now imagine replacing Ray with TA against starters. What happens is that without ray, you don't need to leave KG wide open, you've got your choice of any and all of TA, Perkins, Rondo. TA can be 100 feet away from pierce, but it's still TA's man that comes and doubles pierce. The team can get away with having 2 absolute joke off ball offensive players because Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett, and Paul Pierce are ALL, as in, all 3 of them, such deadly players to leave wide open. Regardless, though, that doesn't mean you should put the ball in Rondo's hands with the game on the line - it should be in the hands of your best scorerS. The difference in pure scoring ability between Rondo and the big 3 is night and day. Rondo might penetrate within the flow of an offense, but come a cavs series, we'll see rondo be shut down, which in turn will again make it harder for Pierce/KG/Ray to successfully carry the team. Yet they'll still pull through, that's how great those individual 3 are.

Ray might bring a guy into the "space" of another player when he's coming off the ball, but that doesn't mean his man is ultimately LEAVING him to bother someone else. And Rondo didn't make them play for it - last season in the playoffs he finished them with an ABYSMAL 45.4% true shooting percentage. That's larry hughes territory. I'm sorry for prefering a guy who scored 2 points for every 57.6% of his possessions where he attempts to score than a guy who scored 2 points for every 45.4% of his possessions where he attempts to score, in a playoffs where the team's biggest shortcoming was, well, SCORING, not DEFENSE. The team was losing games in the 80s. I'm sorry, but I'm a lot more critical of the offense when you're holding teams in the 80s and still losing.

[Kefa461]

^Kefa, was that directed at me? You lost me fairly early in your post

I don't think Ray is off-topic, but the bashing gets ridiculous. He has been the BEST player, arguably, on the entire team this season, certainly the best and most consistent of the big 3...

I don't mind debate at all, it's good (the back and forth over Baby the last couple weeks has been fun) but the Ray-haters are NOT backed up by stats yet they clamor for the guy's head...it makes no sense...

And before anyone says anything, there is a BIG difference between arguing over a bench player (Baby) vs an All-Star and future HOFer like Ray...

..

No....I was grabbing a quote from Pogue and responding to it......

[MyInsatiableOne]

Gotcha

Didn't think so but wanted to make sure