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Offical Jamal Crawford Thread

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Re: Offical Jamal Crawford to Atlanta Thread 

Post#21 » by conleyorbust » Fri Apr 3, 2009 3:09 pm

Harry10 wrote:
Gutz wrote:why in the world would we want Crawford? That makes no sense. We don't another SG when we have Joe. Crawford is nothing but a chucker. This is a stupid thread.


isn't Iverson a chucker? isn't Bibby a chucker?

Crawford played PG in Chicago, New York, and GS. he handles the ball alot and brings the ball up.

Crawford does not have the best PG skills, but his skills sets suit him to be Joe's backcourt teammate.

Joe brings up the ball with Bibby, he could do the same with Crawford.

Crawford's assist and turnovers are similar to Bibby's


Craw is like Joe but with a less consistent jumper... which means he needs the ball in his hands more...

Bibby works with Joe because he doesn't over-dribble the ball like Craw. He makes his move or passes it and works to get open for a catch-and-shoot which he is above average at.

You seem to have a problem understanding degrees here. Bibby could be called a "chucker" because he is a score-first pg, Craw is a chucker because he pounds the rock for a good chunk of clock when he's in a half court offense and then takes questionable pull-up jumpers with a man in his face. One is worse than the other, or at least one works better next to Joe.
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Re: Offical Jamal Crawford to Atlanta Thread 

Post#22 » by mr_grabb » Fri Apr 3, 2009 4:24 pm

Personnally, I dont think Crawford would be an upgrade over Bibby. Crawford is basically a scorer who likes to shoot the ball a lot. Bibby does not need to score to be efficient for this Hawks squad. Furthermore, to get Crawford we'd need to trade something to Golden State, and the we'd have to pay Crawford the 10 mils he's guaranteed by his contract. Bibby could simply be resigned for less.

Seriously, I think that Iverson would be a better fit than Crawford. Yes, he's also a scorer but he's much more valuable at sharing, penetrating and spreading the D than Crawford. Also a much better defender.
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Re: Offical Jamal Crawford to Atlanta Thread 

Post#23 » by Harry10 » Fri Apr 3, 2009 7:02 pm

conleyorbust wrote:Craw is like Joe but with a less consistent jumper... which means he needs the ball in his hands more...

Bibby works with Joe because he doesn't over-dribble the ball like Craw. He makes his move or passes it and works to get open for a catch-and-shoot which he is above average at.

You seem to have a problem understanding degrees here. Bibby could be called a "chucker" because he is a score-first pg, Craw is a chucker because he pounds the rock for a good chunk of clock when he's in a half court offense and then takes questionable pull-up jumpers with a man in his face. One is worse than the other, or at least one works better next to Joe.


is that really a bad thing?!?!?!?! thanks for making my argument for me :) it would be great to have two Joe[s] out their :D two big combo guards who can both shoot and pass

i have no idea what you are talking about "pounds the rock" to a point were i think you have absolutly no idea what you are talking about. are you saying you have watched Crawford before, or are you just making that up? because i have watched Crawford from time to time, he played with Marbury and now Monte and Stephen Jackson, and those three guys "dominate the ball" for their team. the one year where Crawford was called upon to be the man, he averaged 20/5
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Re: Offical Jamal Crawford to Atlanta Thread 

Post#24 » by Harry10 » Fri Apr 3, 2009 7:17 pm

mr_grabb wrote:Personnally, I dont think Crawford would be an upgrade over Bibby. Crawford is basically a scorer who likes to shoot the ball a lot. Bibby does not need to score to be efficient for this Hawks squad. Furthermore, to get Crawford we'd need to trade something to Golden State, and the we'd have to pay Crawford the 10 mils he's guaranteed by his contract. Bibby could simply be resigned for less.

Seriously, I think that Iverson would be a better fit than Crawford. Yes, he's also a scorer but he's much more valuable at sharing, penetrating and spreading the D than Crawford. Also a much better defender.


i don't agree, Bibby and Iverson have different games, but i think by this point, Bibby's and Iverson's impact is the same. might as well just resign Bibby cheap, or resign Flip and make him into the starting PG, because they already have chemistry with team.

the 10 mil aint so bad. if you get Crawford, then you don't have to resign Bibby, and you can either trade Speedy or let his contract run out next year.
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Re: Offical Jamal Crawford to Atlanta Thread 

Post#25 » by mr_grabb » Fri Apr 3, 2009 8:53 pm

Harry10 wrote:i don't agree, Bibby and Iverson have different games, but i think by this point, Bibby's and Iverson's impact is the same. might as well just resign Bibby cheap, or resign Flip and make him into the starting PG, because they already have chemistry with team.

the 10 mil aint so bad. if you get Crawford, then you don't have to resign Bibby, and you can either trade Speedy or let his contract run out next year.


I might as well resign Bibby for cheap (I guess it would require something in the 6-8 mils range) than make a move at Crawford. If we can get Bibby for another year or two and hopefully draft a PG in the upcoming draft, it would leave us the length of Bibby's contract to develop that guy. No need to tell you that Acie is not our next pg...
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Re: Offical Jamal Crawford to Atlanta Thread 

Post#26 » by conleyorbust » Sat Apr 4, 2009 5:48 pm

Harry10 wrote:
conleyorbust wrote:Craw is like Joe but with a less consistent jumper... which means he needs the ball in his hands more...

Bibby works with Joe because he doesn't over-dribble the ball like Craw. He makes his move or passes it and works to get open for a catch-and-shoot which he is above average at.

You seem to have a problem understanding degrees here. Bibby could be called a "chucker" because he is a score-first pg, Craw is a chucker because he pounds the rock for a good chunk of clock when he's in a half court offense and then takes questionable pull-up jumpers with a man in his face. One is worse than the other, or at least one works better next to Joe.


is that really a bad thing?!?!?!?! thanks for making my argument for me :) it would be great to have two Joe[s] out their :D two big combo guards who can both shoot and pass

i have no idea what you are talking about "pounds the rock" to a point were i think you have absolutly no idea what you are talking about. are you saying you have watched Crawford before, or are you just making that up? because i have watched Crawford from time to time, he played with Marbury and now Monte and Stephen Jackson, and those three guys "dominate the ball" for their team. the one year where Crawford was called upon to be the man, he averaged 20/5


Just so I'm clear where you think I'm wrong, how would you describe Jamal Crawford's offensive game? I think he's a guy who needs to ball in his hands and whose offense generally consists of long 2s off the bounce. He's not really a catch and shoot player who moves well without the ball and he doesn't take it to the hoop with much frequency. Where am I wrong and why is he a good fit for our team?
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Re: Offical Jamal Crawford to Atlanta Thread 

Post#27 » by Harry10 » Sat Apr 4, 2009 6:59 pm

conleyorbust wrote:Just so I'm clear where you think I'm wrong, how would you describe Jamal Crawford's offensive game? I think he's a guy who needs to ball in his hands and whose offense generally consists of long 2s off the bounce. He's not really a catch and shoot player who moves well without the ball and he doesn't take it to the hoop with much frequency. Where am I wrong and why is he a good fit for our team?


have you ever even watched Crawford play? :-? you don't remember when he played with Murbury, and Kurt Thomas and Eddy Curry, when they were good? that is all he did, catch and shoot. :roll:
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Re: Offical Jamal Crawford to Atlanta Thread 

Post#28 » by conleyorbust » Mon Apr 6, 2009 5:16 pm

Harry10 wrote:
have you ever even watched Crawford play? :-? you don't remember when he played with Murbury, and Kurt Thomas and Eddy Curry, when they were good? that is all he did, catch and shoot. :roll:


They were good? They won 33 games, Craw shot below 40% and still based his game off of pull up Js or contested 3s. Have you watched Crawford recently?
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Re: Offical Jamal Crawford to Atlanta Thread 

Post#29 » by JoshB914 » Mon Apr 6, 2009 6:45 pm

Harry10 wrote:
conleyorbust wrote:Just so I'm clear where you think I'm wrong, how would you describe Jamal Crawford's offensive game? I think he's a guy who needs to ball in his hands and whose offense generally consists of long 2s off the bounce. He's not really a catch and shoot player who moves well without the ball and he doesn't take it to the hoop with much frequency. Where am I wrong and why is he a good fit for our team?


have you ever even watched Crawford play? :-? you don't remember when he played with Murbury, and Kurt Thomas and Eddy Curry, when they were good? that is all he did, catch and shoot. :roll:


yes and that Knicks team was garbage with him paired with Marbury in the backcourt, just like the GSW team has been garbage with him alongside Monta/Jax. How does that back up your point at all? Those two teams failed miserably when trying to play Crawford next to a combo guard.
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Re: Offical Jamal Crawford to Atlanta Thread 

Post#30 » by Harry10 » Tue Apr 7, 2009 6:35 am

conleyorbust wrote:They were good? They won 33 games, Craw shot below 40% and still based his game off of pull up Js or contested 3s. Have you watched Crawford recently?


wow, how much blame do you want to put on Crawford?! :roll: you are really going to blame him for everything? do you actually think that Curry, Murbury, and Monta are anywhere near on the same level as Joe Johnson?!?! :o
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Re: Offical Jamal Crawford to Atlanta Thread 

Post#31 » by conleyorbust » Tue Apr 7, 2009 2:23 pm

Harry10 wrote:wow, how much blame do you want to put on Crawford?! :roll: you are really going to blame him for everything? do you actually think that Curry, Murbury, and Monta are anywhere near on the same level as Joe Johnson?!?! :o


... I'm going to put blame on him for shooting 40.3% for his career. I'm going to put blame on him for being a mediocre defender. I'm going to put blame on him for taking 6 3s a game in GSW, most of them contested and off the bounce, and only hitting 33% of them instead of using his superior quickness and handle to take it to the hoop...

All and all, he isn't a terrible player. He does some nice things. I just have no clue why you think he's be a good fit here.
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Re: Offical Jamal Crawford to Atlanta Thread 

Post#32 » by evildallas » Tue Apr 7, 2009 4:29 pm

When the discussion comes to adding a combo guard to pair with Joe, I think back to the fact that we could have had Brandon Roy in that role if Billy Knight wasn't such an egotistical idiot with target blindness. Paying about 10M a year to Jamal Crawford to be less than half as good of player in that role would be foolish. I'd rather try to trade up in the draft and take a flier on Tyreke Evans as a combo guard. It would be far more economical and probably have a greater likelihood of success for the team. I don't think Tyreke Evans is the best strategy for the Hawks just considerably better than the Jamal Crawford project.
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Re: Offical Jamal Crawford to Atlanta Thread 

Post#33 » by MaceCase » Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:17 am

As a guy who lives in New York I often tune in to Knick games to hear the pimpness that is Clyde and the entertainment that is Mike Breen talk about how terrible the Knicks are with no fear of being fired after the Marv Albert debacle. So anyway to classify Jamal.. I would say that he is Joe Johnson..if Joe was 3 inches shorter and 60 pounds lighter. Crawford may have the edge in athleticism but both guards are similar in that they are both ball dominators who have the skill to penetrate and finish but would much rather make a living on the perimeter. I of course in no way wish to diss the calibre of player that Joe is but feel that he has benefitted from being on winning teams with great veterans surrounding him giving him the clear mental advantage over Crawford who is reaching Shareef status in that he has never tasted the playoffs yet alone smelt them. So to agree with some posters it may be enticing to have a backcourt of Joe and Joe-lite but that only means suffuring through more years of Woody's horrible Iso offense as Crawford is no PG. To look at it from the point of view of Joe becomes the main distributor and ball handler, as a few analysts including Mike Breen himself stated, the reason why Crawford struggled so much in D'Antoni's offense and part of why he was traded (besides Lebron mania :roll: ) was due to the fact the offense calls for rapid ball movement and players being able to spot up and shoot from all over the floor both of which Crawford is not comfortable with.
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Re: Offical Jamal Crawford to Atlanta Thread 

Post#34 » by TONEGULLY » Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:52 am

Crawford is a bum who is overpaid.
“We played them here, we played them there, we played them with their whole team, we played them without their whole team,” said Crawford of the four meetings. “We match up well with those guys. We definitely respect them, but we don’t fear anybody.”
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Re: Offical Jamal Crawford to Atlanta Thread 

Post#35 » by old rem » Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:49 am

evildallas wrote:Am I wrong about this? I thought Jamal Crawford was a conscienceless chucker? More so than even Ben Gordon. He's also proven over time that he lacks worthwhile PG skills. Given his price tag and the similarities I would rather go after Gordon. However, all things considered I'd rather have someone who can take some of the workload off of Joe and also create for others like Hinrich, Jack, Calderon, or Blake.


Crawford isn't a chucker and while he's not excellent as a PG, he's okay. What hr is,os not very good on D and a streaky shooter. If he's hot..he shoots planty..and that's good. If he's not hot,he seems fine with backing off and passing. Does not D a jumpshooter close enough to have much effect-that's the big thing.
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Re: Offical Jamal Crawford to Atlanta Thread 

Post#36 » by HMFFL » Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:11 pm

Jamal Crawford has NEVER played on a winning team. After he was traded by Chicago they played over .500 basketball the following season. It's not the type of guy that you acquire and he just changes. We don't need him unless we're going to be heavily compensated. For us to take on two years 20 million, I want two future first round picks with limited protection (top 5), so if Golden State's not willing to do that I see no reason why we should even bother.
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Re: Offical Jamal Crawford to Atlanta Thread 

Post#37 » by OptionZero » Sun Apr 12, 2009 6:30 pm

Warriors fan here.

Scouting report on Crawford?

He has an exceptionally good handle that he can use to get his own shot any time, anywhere. His range extends out beyond the 3P line. He has good passing ability.

Unfortunately, his shot selection is horrendous . . . so horrendous that it negates nearly all of his penetration and distribution abilities. Crawford will have a number of possessions where he destroys his man and finds his teammates for easy buckets . . and then as many or more possessions where he takes quick shots with no passing at all. Thus, while he has the physical gifts to be a good point guard, he never learned the mindset. Whether it's his fault he played on bad teams or not, I believe that has negatively impact him so much that it's too late to correct his flaws.

Beyond his offensive talents and mental faults, however, Crawford contributes virtually nothing else. He's a negative on the glass, which is saying quite a bit, since he's a point guard and not expected to contribute much. There was a game that went to overtime, and Crawford and Stephen Jackson played a combined 100 minutes. You know how many combined rebounds they got?

...
...

Three.

three boards in 100 minutes. I think Jack had 2 of those, and Crawford got 1. Along the way, the Warriors lost (probably not BECAUSE of the lack of rebounding from those 2, but surely it did not help mitigate the damage done by the other team).

Crawford does not play defense. He has the footspeed to be effective, but no willingness to stay in front of his own assignment and no awareness of where he should be in the team's scheme. With a thin frame and no muscle development, he's vulnerable in the post against most shooting guards. That's a problem, since he's too weak to guard shooting guards and too lazy to guard point guards. You'd need an excellent shotblocking frontcourt and another backcourt defender to make up for him, and even then it hurts to have a such a weak link in your defense.


Having said all that, if there were a team that Crawford might be useful in . . . it's the Hawks. Joe Johnson is an above average rebounding guard and an excellent ballhandler. The glasswork makes up for Crawford's aversion to rebounding; the ballhandling means you can take the ball out of Crawford's hands instead of depending on him the way the Warriors had to w/o Ellis or any worthwhile guard most of the year. Johnson can also handle the opposing team's best perimeter scorer, and you have two shotblockers in the frontcourt. That lets you "hide" Crawford to some extent.

Additionally, Crawford's ability to push the ball on the break and space the floor as a shooter will be welcome in an uptempo offense. In the halfcourt, his shot creating ability can bail you out.

I see no credible backup PG on the Hawks roster (not that I watch many Hawks games, so correct me if i'm wrong). Crawford is an iron man (mostly because he doesn't use any energy on defense), so he can carry an offense while Johnson is out with his own scoring.


As for a trade with the Warriors . . . I don't expect Crawford to leave $20M on the table in this climate. He doesn't have postive trade value, but he's not a malcontent, so I hesitate to call him a huge negative. If the Hawks were willing to part with Speedy Claxton and Zaza's expiring contracts, I'd have to say it's a fair trade on the whole. We could use a banger in Pachulia, and Claxton can be bought out or rot on the bench for all I care.
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Re: Offical Jamal Crawford to Atlanta Thread 

Post#38 » by evildallas » Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:20 pm

Thanks for the detailed scouting report. I would say that 95% of the Hawks fans are strongly against the idea of acquiring Jamal Crawford (myself included). As for the trade you suggested, the problem is that Zaza is already a free agent at the end of the year not an expiring deal.

We don't have the pieces to match up contract-wise with a Crawford deal even if we wanted. Logically we'd have to have the deal sweetened with either a pick or additional player (promising, low salary) in order to absorb his contract. We don't have a bad contract to swap. We don't have the right contracts In order to match salaries. We'd have to sign and trade someone (maybe Childress if he decided to come back) to include with the expiring deal of Speedy which is only 5.25M next year. Even without the sweetener we'd have to bundle several players to do it and it just isn't make sense to do that.

The caveat to this is if the Warriors were so intent on shedding Crawford's deal that they included their 1st round pick after some lottery luck (I'm not talking #1 overall, but #2 or #3). I'd consider swallowing his contract in order to get Thabeet. Of course, if the Warriors were going to do that wouldn't they prefer to deal Corey Maggette instead? I mean his contract is a lot worse. Regardless if we could hide most of his deficiencies, the Warriors would be better finding someone else to deal with.
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Re: Offical Jamal Crawford to Atlanta Thread 

Post#39 » by OptionZero » Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:41 pm

Jamal Crawford's deal is neither long nor large enough to justify trading away a #2 or #3 pick just to get rid of him. As I said, he's a highly flawed player, but not a malcontent (ala Zach Randolph, Stephen Jackson, Ron Artest back a few years ago, etc).

The #2 or #3 pick would be an easy shot at Ricky Rubio or James Harden, who would be worth far more to the Warriors than $9M in salary relief in one year.

I didn't realize Pachulia was a FA already, so that does make it harder to find contracts to match it all up.
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Re: Offical Jamal Crawford to Atlanta Thread 

Post#40 » by evildallas » Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:11 pm

I agree that it isn't worth such a heavy sacrifice to move him. I'm just saying that is what it would take for us to want to add him. Like I said, I believe that 95% of the Hawks fans want nothing to do with Jamal Crawford.
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