OT: Jays off to best start in 8 years

[jalenrose#5]

While I agree that the Jays have been better than people give them credit for, J.P has done a average job as opposed to a good job. Biggest problem is with how he drafted the first three years, refusing to take high school kid or guys with upside that were projects. He's remedied that in a big way the past couple of years but not enough to make up for it all. V-Dub's contract could be a killer too if he doesn't have a few consistent good years.

Also on draft picks, you'll be happy to here that this year the Jays are absolutely willing to go over slot to draft a player. So we could be getting a high level prospect who drops due to money concerns which is good to here.

And finally pitching is clearly the Jays strength. Next year provided all our guys are healthy in Spring we'll have these guys as starters.
Halladay, Marcum, McGowan, Cecil, Litsch, Romero, Purcey. Also have Mills and a couple of other prospects. So the Jays will have a very nice starting rotation and pieces to trade.

Yeah those draft picks at the start kind of hurt...a little stats for you all..

2001 he drafted about 50 players...2 have made an MLB impact...League and Gabe Gross
2002 he drafted about 50 players...2 have made an MLB Impact...Russ Adams and David Bush
2003 he drafted about 50 players...3 have made an MLB Impact...Aaron Hill, Josh Banks and Marcum
2004 he drafted about 50 players...5 have made an impact...Jannsen, Litsch, Lind, Purcey & Jackson
2005 he drafted about 50 players...key picks include, Romero..not a good draft imo
2006 he drafted about 50 players...key picks include, Snider, Campbell, Jeroloman, Mills and Dials
2007 he drafted about 50 players...key picks include Ahrens, Arencibia, Cecil, Jackson, Emaus..+ more
2008 he drafted about 50 players...key picks include Cooper, Wilson, Thames, Brisker and Soblewiski

As you can tell, he contiually got better with the drafting. Nobody is perfect early on with their drafting, like I said for baseball with the amount of picks you have, there's a better chance of drafting a Rafael Araujo than a Vince Carter, so fans have to accept that. Only a select few out of the 1500 players drafted can make an impact.

Just use another excuse other than drafts...he brought in good FA's when he had the money. He managed to woo Burnett here when he did, so he is doing something right.

[Gold Chain]

Lots of fairweather fans here...I can tell by the ignorant statements

Yeah, maybe because this is a Toronto Raptors board.

[Michael Bradley]

The playing field is not level. You have to at least admit that. The Yankees can make a Carl Pavano mistake and correct it by spending millions on Sabathia and Burnett. If Wang is done, they'll go out and eat up somebody's else salary. Meanwhile, Tampa Bay will be losing most of their promosing youngsters in 2 to 3 years, because they can't affort the ridiculous sums that NY and Boston will throw at them. How is that fair?

If you use that same salary structure in the NBA, San Antonio would never have won a title. LA and NY would just stash Corey Maggette as their 15th player at the back end of the roster.

The Rays were able to extend Longoria, Kazmir, Shields, Pena, etc, already. They will trade away the players they feel are expendable/too expensive, but all teams do that. The Jays were able to extend Halladay back when their payroll was $50 million. Granted, Roy taking below market value had a lot to do with that, but again, it is possible to keep players under the current format.

In baseball, a team owns a player's rights for six full seasons. At any point during those six seasons, the team can sign that player to a long-term extension potentially buying out his arbitration and free agent years. If that rule were applicable in the NBA, then the Cavs could have signed LeBron to a 10-year extension after his rookie year (if James agreed to it). In fact, you are seeing more players signing extensions with their current teams in baseball, largely because it is cost security for the player and cost certainty for the team. The only players who seem to shy away from that are Scott Boras clients, and that's only because Boras wants to squeeze as much money as he can.

Another factor, as someone has mentioned already, is that baseball is a profitable sport. Teams are making money. Telling teams that they can only spend X amount of dollars when they could potentially spend a lot more than that while still maintaining a profit is ridiculous, IMO. The teams that need to scale back will need to be more creative with the way they assemble a team. That is not a bad thing. You're right that the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, Mets, Angels, etc, will take a lot of the top free agents due to their market size and budget. That does not mean those decisions are necessarily the right thing. In baseball, teams are compensated for losing their free agents. Teams like the Yankees will lose their draft picks if they sign Type-A free agents. So that is one area where a small market team can overcome the system.

Since 1980, a grand total of EIGHT different franchises have won NBA titles (LA, Boston, SAS, Chicago, Houston, Miami, Detroit, Philly). That's 8 teams in 29 years. In comparison, since 2000, a grand total of EIGHT different franchises have won World Series titles in baseball. That's 8 teams in 9 seasons. Which sport has more parity again?

Since the inception of the Wild Card, despite the fact that baseball is still the most difficult major sport to make the playoffs in, there are only 4 teams who have not made the playoffs since then (Toronto, KC, Pittsburgh, and Montreal/Washington). The Royals and the Pirates were a laughingstock because they hired baffoons as GM's, and the Expos were bleeding financially. Only Toronto can say they wasted an opportunity, but they are also in the toughest division in baseball.

Baseball is far from perfect. I still feel the signing bonus rule in the draft should be monitored, among other things, but the system is not unfair as a whole, IMO. Teams have to be held accountable for their decision making.

[tecumseh18]

2002 he drafted about 50 players...2 have made an MLB Impact...Russ Adams and David Bush
2005 he drafted about 50 players...key picks include, Romero..not a good draft imo

Russ Adams

If Scoot and Romero continue at anything close to their current level of play, then JP gets a pass for picking Ricky ahead of Tulowitski. But man, we've needed a real SS for the longest time.

Also on draft picks, you'll be happy to here that this year the Jays are absolutely willing to go over slot to draft a player. So we could be getting a high level prospect who drops due to money concerns which is good to here.

Hear, hear!

Actually, that is great news.

[distracted]

If you think small and mid-market teams will ever have as much money as the big markets you're kidding yourself. It's not a question of fans "caring more" or whatever. New York's population is half the size of Canada. How do Kansas city or Cincinatti or Milwaukee, places the size of Hamilton, ever compete with that?

They don't, they won't, and they can't. period.

I didn't say they'd have as much as big markets, I said I don't really care.

How is Charlotte/Memphis supposed to compete in the NBA when their owners wants to spend as little as possible? It's the exact same thing.

Regardless of salary rules some teams will spend more. Also, there is such a disparity in what teams will spend the only way to make a cap 'work' in MLB would be to cut overall salaries in half. With a league that makes so much money, can you give me a single reason why they'd cut the compensation to the players like that?

As far as I'm concerned, if you have a ton of fans, bring in a ton of money, and want to spend it on your team, I say you should be allowed to. If KC doesn't think it's fair, then don't start up a team in such a small freaking market who can't bring in fans/money.

To me, it's like arguing Kapono should make as much as Bosh because "how can someone who is less talented than Bosh compete with him for a contract?". Bigger markets make more money and thus have more to spend. The only way this makes the league lop-sided is if the talent is watered down, in which case there should be less teams anyways.

[bigtime105]

This is so silly. If you want your team to win, go support them and they'll have more money to spend on players.

If you think small and mid-market teams will ever have as much money as the big markets you're kidding yourself. It's not a question of fans "caring more" or whatever. New York's population is half the size of Canada. How do Kansas city or Cincinatti or Milwaukee, places the size of Hamilton, ever compete with that?

They don't, they won't, and they can't. period.

But MLB won't change. It's in their best interest to have Yankees/Red Sox play each other in the playoffs every year. It's by far the biggest ratings draw. Dodgers and Giants in it keep them relevant on the west coast. There's also a sentiment that baseball represents America and salary caps are somehow anti-capitalist.

Whats next you going to allow midgets into the NBA because it isnt fair? Too bad, if youre not big enough or good enough maybe you should find somethitne else to compete in and not bring down the rest who wanna see the big boys compete. No city should think it has a right to equally compete against NewYork, the universe is fair, make your own new york if you wanna compete, its possible. There are teams willing to compete and go against other tams that want to compete and then theres just leeches who wanna free ride to make money without trying to compete, not doing anything for the league but diluting talent and corrupting players. Every pro sports league needs less teams not more.

[bigtime105]

What woulud you rather watch, a playoffs with 3 superstars on each team, or a league full of no name teams with maybe 1 franchise guy surrounded by a pile of crap every year. It shouldnt take a ginormous trade to get good players like KG, Allen and Pierce together and play vs quality opponent. NBA has been **** the last 5 years int he playoffs until last year. Get rid of the c(r)ap!!

[Morena R]

Not really into the jays but I wish them the best.

Where is Vermon Wells anyway? is he still injured?

[Anatomize]

Rick Astley is Jaime Campbell

[Alfred]

Not really into the jays but I wish them the best.

Where is Vermon Wells anyway? is he still injured?

No, but he isn't playing very well.

[Michael Bradley]

This is so silly. If you want your team to win, go support them and they'll have more money to spend on players.

If you think small and mid-market teams will ever have as much money as the big markets you're kidding yourself. It's not a question of fans "caring more" or whatever. New York's population is half the size of Canada. How do Kansas city or Cincinatti or Milwaukee, places the size of Hamilton, ever compete with that?

They don't, they won't, and they can't. period.

But MLB won't change. It's in their best interest to have Yankees/Red Sox play each other in the playoffs every year. It's by far the biggest ratings draw. Dodgers and Giants in it keep them relevant on the west coast. There's also a sentiment that baseball represents America and salary caps are somehow anti-capitalist.

So what do you suggest baseball do? Tell the Yankees and Red Sox to stop spending money so that other teams can keep up with them? Tell A-Rod to "settle" for $10 million because it would not be fair to inferior players if he were making more? Where do you draw the line? Teams in smaller markets with less money to spend have to be more creative in the way they build a team. Just like I have to be more creative/smart about how I spend money compared to a doctor. If I were making stupid decisions with my money, what gives me the right to complain about the people making more than me?

I will give you the Royals for example. They have been awful since 1996. Here are their first round picks from 1996 to 2006 (overall pick is in parenthesis):

Dee Brown (14), Dan Reichert (7), Jeff Austin (4), Kyle Snyder (7), Colt Griffin (9), Zack Greinke (6), Chris Lubanski (5), Billy Butler (14), Alex Gordon (2), Luke Hochevar (1)

That is 11 first round picks; 8 of them being top 10, while 4 were top 5. The only good player out of that group is Zack Greinke. Everyone else is either out of the league entirely or has disappointed so far (Gordon has a chance to be very good though).

Who do you blame for that incompetence? The Yankees? The Red Sox? The salary structure? Here's an idea: place the blame squarely on the idiots who made the decisions. That does not seem like a radical idea to me.

We have evidence of teams making the playoffs with lesser salaries (Twins, A's, Marlins, Rays, etc). Even the Yankees and Red Sox were toppled by a small market team last season. It CAN happen. The margin for error is a lot smaller, but so what? Make good decisions and good things will happen. I truly believe the Jays could have made it at least once if the decision making was better by Ricciardi (and even Ash before him).

To paraphrase an old saying, people who hate the rich are generally the ones who buy lottery tickets. Everyone hates the Yankees, but if the Jays were the ones spending $200 million, I doubt anyone here would be complaining. Who spent the most money in 1992 and 1993? Yes, the Blue Jays. Those bastards.

[raptorforlife88]

To paraphrase an old saying, people who hate the rich are generally the ones who buy lottery tickets. Everyone hates the Yankees, but if the Jays were the ones spending $200 million, I doubt anyone here would be complaining. Who spent the most money in 1992 and 1993? Yes, the Blue Jays. Those bastards.

That's something most people don't know about. I mean the Jays in those years were signing hall of famers left and right. Trading for Rickey Henderson, signing Jack Morris, Dave Winfield, Paul Molitor. They were going all out.

[Hoopstarr]

While I agree that the Jays have been better than people give them credit for, J.P has done a average job as opposed to a good job. Biggest problem is with how he drafted the first three years, refusing to take high school kid or guys with upside that were projects. He's remedied that in a big way the past couple of years but not enough to make up for it all. V-Dub's contract could be a killer too if he doesn't have a few consistent good years.

Also on draft picks, you'll be happy to here that this year the Jays are absolutely willing to go over slot to draft a player. So we could be getting a high level prospect who drops due to money concerns which is good to here.

JP drafted college players because he had a sub-$50M payroll in the first few years and wasn't allowed to pay over-slot for draft picks. And yet he still delivered some very good drafts. The 2003 and 2004 drafts are looking very good right now. Ricky Romero from 2005 is looking nice right now. Even the 2002 draft was rated by Baseball America as the best draft at the time, but it hasn't panned out. 2006 gave them Snider, Mills, and some other guys who look like they'll make the majors. The 2007 class is very promising with Ahrens, Jackson, Arencibia, and Cecil. And 2008 is looking good so far with Cooper but it's too early to judge that. Really only 2002 and 2005 can be called bad drafts. It's very easy in baseball to write off drafts but you have to be patient. Everyone thought Romero was a bust until he suddenly put it together.

About slots, lots of teams are now paying over slot so I doubt it's going to be an advantage for them. They're simply reacting in self-defense rather than doing a 180.

[LLJ]

I'm not a big believer that this run will last, but I do feel better about having so many management guys from "the old days" starting to come back to the organization in some capacity again.

Interesting note I read in the Star: The Jays have been 61-41 since Cito was re-hired. Of course, last year they had the best pitching staff in the majors (arguably) but couldn't score worth a damn until the last 2 months when they went on that incredible 10 game winning streak. But as much as talent is important, I do feel like the manager does have quite a bit of input in baseball as well. I'm not feeling the same spark in the Yankees for example, since Torre left.

[xAIRNESSx]

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/history/draft/draft.jsp

Here's a link to the draft history for MLB. If you actually look over the draft, you'll notice only a handful of first round picks end up making the big leagues and sticking around. JP has actually done a decent job finding prospects that can play in the bigs.

[ItsDanger]

To paraphrase an old saying, people who hate the rich are generally the ones who buy lottery tickets. Everyone hates the Yankees, but if the Jays were the ones spending $200 million, I doubt anyone here would be complaining. Who spent the most money in 1992 and 1993? Yes, the Blue Jays. Those bastards.

To compare the spending in the early 90s to what is occurring right now is idiotic. The budget differences currently are greater than they have ever been. Its not close either.

[jay632]

wow, yankees, 210 million, jays 98 million, malins 21 million. don't know if the numbers are acurate, did a google search, yankees have double our payroll... in theory they have double our talent. don't know if those numbers include them paying luxury tax.

[Michael Bradley]

To paraphrase an old saying, people who hate the rich are generally the ones who buy lottery tickets. Everyone hates the Yankees, but if the Jays were the ones spending $200 million, I doubt anyone here would be complaining. Who spent the most money in 1992 and 1993? Yes, the Blue Jays. Those bastards.

To compare the spending in the early 90s to what is occurring right now is idiotic. The budget differences currently are greater than they have ever been. Its not close either.

Well that is pretty obvious given inflation and the heightened discrepancy between the payrolls. I was just pointing out that no one seemed to care that we were spending the most and signing so many free agents back then, whereas now those same people complain about NYY, Boston, LA, etc. Seriously, what if the Jays were the highest spending team in baseball? Would Jays fans be angry and fight for the "little guy" like they are on this thread? I doubt it.