Larry, the best ever

Bruiser · Post #1 » by **Bruiser** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:47 am

Hey yo!
Check this out:
http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/ ... /index.htm

Any thoughts? Kind regards.

Post #2 » by **canman1971** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:37 pm

It has always been my opinion that he is the best ever "basketball player." Now, certainly others will come to mind such as Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Magic, but I see Bird as the complete player and the only one who is next to him is Magic. Jordan transformed the game from team concept, to an individual one for better or IMO, worse. Of course I cannot speak of Oscar Robertson because I have not seen him play, just like Wilt, Russell, etc..but Bird had not only the skills, but the greatest basketball mind. One can only wonder what he could have accomplished if he had not been injured. However, part of his game was playing with no fear and every possession is just as important as the next. I don't think today's players "care" enough. Too much money involved and everybody is friends with each other. There is really no "dislike" left in the game between players and that is what really drives the competitive spirit. Of course this is just my opinion and many will agree/disagree. The truth is the question will never be answered, because it is simply not possible.

TheMartian · Post #3 » by **TheMartian** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:17 pm

Bruiser wrote:Hey yo!
Check this out:
http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/ ... /index.htm

Any thoughts? Kind regards.

Awesome read. Thanks for that. Bird is the man.

Cyclical · Post #4 » by **Cyclical** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:38 pm

Good read, thanks.

Don't forget, this article was written in 1986, before the emergence of Jordan, two more titles by Magic's Lakers and LeBron. Bird is my personal favorite player of all time and on a pure "basketball mind" level he and Magic will always rank higher for me than Jordan but let's face it, Jordan is the better player. And, when it's all said and done, LeBron will rank higher as well. Perhaps the highest.

Sever82 · Post #5 » by **Sever82** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:44 pm

this is coming from a Bulls Fan, i know today's generation is so amazed by Lebron but because of the rule changes and how offensively bias today's NBA game is, i still wouldn't put Lebron in Jordan's, Bird or Magics league. To me Magic is the best PG of all time, Jordan is the best player and best SG and Bird is the SF of all time. I doubt Lebron would put up the same numbers he puts up now back in the Bird, Jordan and Magic Eras. Defenses were more physical back then and could actually handcheck. Nowadays there is no handchecking and if you even breathe on Lebron its called a foul. All you have to do is look at the fouls per game for lebron to see how soft today's game is.

Bad-Thoma · Post #6 » by **Bad-Thoma** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:19 pm

Sever82 wrote:this is coming from a Bulls Fan, i know today's generation is so amazed by Lebron but because of the rule changes and how offensively bias today's NBA game is, i still wouldn't put Lebron in Jordan's, Bird or Magics league. To me Magic is the best PG of all time, Jordan is the best player and best SG and Bird is the SF of all time. I doubt Lebron would put up the same numbers he puts up now back in the Bird, Jordan and Magic Eras. Defenses were more physical back then and could actually handcheck. Nowadays there is no handchecking and if you even breathe on Lebron its called a foul. All you have to do is look at the fouls per game for lebron to see how soft today's game is.

I'm inclined to agree w/you about LeBron, but then again comparing any generation of bball players to each other is apples and oranges, the rules have softened but the players keep getting more athletic. Bob Cousy was one of the best PG's of all time back in the day when the league was stingy with giving out assists, he transformed the game. So would he look even more remarkable today where assists are handed out more liberally, or would the atheltisicm of defenders and rotating team defenses stimey some of his ability? Truth is we'll never know. I think the measure of a player should be just as much about the success of their team during their career as it is about personal accolades, which for me makes Bill Russell the GOAT, not only did he dominate but his teams dominated largely because of his presence. LeBron is amazing because his supporting cast just isn't all that good, but without a few rings I don't think he'll ever deserve to compare to Jordan, Bird, or Magic. Russell has as many rings as these guys combined, but he doesn't get mentioned as a GOAT candidate by many because he played so long ago and his chief ability wasn't scoring.

Sever82 · Post #7 » by **Sever82** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:30 pm

I dont know about Russell being the GOAT. To me i'd put Chamberlain and Jabbar over Russell anyday and maybe even put Shaq over him. Russell was probably the greatest winner because of his rings but definitely not the best player of all time. I mean would you put Brady over Marino? You're right that you can't compare eras but keep in mind that Cousy's era was pretty much an all white league. From probably the late 70s but more so the 80's and present, the NBA has becomes a more welcoming league. I mean Chamberlain and Russell would of been great centers in today's game but they wouldn't have grabbed 30 board or scored 100 points in a game. I mean imagine Jordan playing against the defenses back then, do you honestly think he wouldn't post about 45 - 50ppg? Eras are definitely hard to compare and today's are probably stronger but i wouldn't say more athletic. From the 80s and up i would say players skill levels have been comparable. I just dont see lebron posting 29 / 8 /8 against the bad boys in Detroit. If handchecking were in the NBA and if the NBA didn't guard their superstars as much as they do now, Lebron would probably post more along the line of 23ppg to 25ppg. Its pretty hard guarding a slasher such as lebron when you can't play physical or handcheck him the whole guy, to me its pretty rediculous.

TonyMontana · Post #8 » by **TonyMontana** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:41 pm

I think Larry Bird was one of the top 5 players of all time.
All I know is the rivalry between him and Magic had to be NBAs best ever, and when they joined the Dream team was a dream come true for me as a fan.
Actually that was the first time I ever like Bird............. J/K lolllll

Bad-Thoma · Post #9 » by **Bad-Thoma** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:22 pm

Sever82 wrote:I dont know about Russell being the GOAT. To me i'd put Chamberlain and Jabbar over Russell anyday and maybe even put Shaq over him. Russell was probably the greatest winner because of his rings but definitely not the best player of all time. I mean would you put Brady over Marino? You're right that you can't compare eras but keep in mind that Cousy's era was pretty much an all white league. From probably the late 70s but more so the 80's and present, the NBA has becomes a more welcoming league. I mean Chamberlain and Russell would of been great centers in today's game but they wouldn't have grabbed 30 board or scored 100 points in a game. I mean imagine Jordan playing against the defenses back then, do you honestly think he wouldn't post about 45 - 50ppg? Eras are definitely hard to compare and today's are probably stronger but i wouldn't say more athletic. From the 80s and up i would say players skill levels have been comparable. I just dont see lebron posting 29 / 8 /8 against the bad boys in Detroit. If handchecking were in the NBA and if the NBA didn't guard their superstars as much as they do now, Lebron would probably post more along the line of 23ppg to 25ppg. Its pretty hard guarding a slasher such as lebron when you can't play physical or handcheck him the whole guy, to me its pretty rediculous.

Well, any discussion of what a player would have done in another era is speculation in my eye, which is why I choose Russell. He, in his era, accomplished more than any other basketball player in any other era. He had great personal success as a rebounder, shot blocker and is considered one of the greatest defensive players of all time. He won 2 college national championships, an olympic gold medal, and 11 titles in 13 pro seasons as the leader of his teams. We can speculate that Jordan or anyone else would have thrived even more in that era with the faster pace of the games and an even larger athletic edge over his competition, but it is only speculation. Perhaps Russell, who wasn't a big guy for a center, would thrive even more with today's softer play and have had a longer career, who knows? Just more guesswork.

As for the Brady/Marino comparison football is a different game with a different set of standards for me when it comes to judging GOAT. It's a lot harder to read a single player's contibution to winning into football, you've got 11 guys on offense, 11 guys on defense, and special teams players plus a slew of back-ups. Basketball 5 guys are on the floor and if one of them is Bill Russell, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Lebron James, etc., that team is going to be a tough out. Much more of a teams success is a reflection of one player in basketball than in football, even if it still takes a good team surrounding any of these guys to succeed.

Bad-Thoma · Post #10 » by **Bad-Thoma** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:43 pm

TonyMontana wrote:I think Larry Bird was one of the top 5 players of all time.
All I know is the rivalry between him and Magic had to be NBAs best ever, and when they joined the Dream team was a dream come true for me as a fan.
Actually that was the first time I ever like Bird............. J/K lolllll

Well, as would be expected, I hated magic when he played

. Basically a sign of respect as he was that good and that big of a rival. After he retired though I gained a lot of respect for him, not only was he one of the best to ever play but he is a courageous and charismatic fellow too. The way he had to leave the game was nothing short of tragic.

TonyMontana · Post #11 » by **TonyMontana** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:19 pm

Bad-Thoma wrote:
TonyMontana wrote:I think Larry Bird was one of the top 5 players of all time.
All I know is the rivalry between him and Magic had to be NBAs best ever, and when they joined the Dream team was a dream come true for me as a fan.
Actually that was the first time I ever like Bird............. J/K lolllll

Well, as would be expected, I hated magic when he played . Basically a sign of respect as he was that good and that big of a rival. After he retired though I gained a lot of respect for him, not only was he one of the best to ever play but he is a courageous and charismatic fellow too. The way he had to leave the game was nothing short of tragic.

You have to admit, those two individuals did so much for this game than anyone else has.
Its like they were made for each other. They compliment each other perfectly, covering each other's weaknesses and amplifying each other's strengths.
I mean it was like The Basketball Gods created these two individuals only for one reason and it was THE GAME ITSELF.

chakdaddy · Post #12 » by **chakdaddy** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:29 pm

All I know is that Bird was a better shooter, passer, and rebounder than Jordan. Jordan was a better defender and pure scorer, whatever that means... It kind of comes down to how much value you put on the individual defense.

I sometimes put Magic in the argument - he could dominate any position on the floor, although he wasn't the shooter Bird was. I'd take Magic, Bird, Wilt, and Russell over Jordan, and maybe Oscar...