Laker's supporting cast - over rated ?

[JordansBulls]

Pippen and Grant >> Gasol and Odom.
Armstrong, Paxson, Hodges >> Fisher, Farmar, Brown, Vujacic
King, Williams, Cartwright, Purdue < Bynum, Luke, Powell, and Ariza if Bynum can stay healthy and get back to his old self.

Overall they are, but in 1991 they were equal to Gasol and Odom last year.

And this year Gasol led the Lakers in win shares. That didn't happen on the Bulls where someone other than him led the team in win shares.

After the 1991 season Pippen was selected to the Dream Team (although the team didn't play until a year later). He also put the clamps on James Worthy (injured but still) and Magic Johnson.

Pippen>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Odom any day of the week.
Jordan wouldn't ever let anyone else lead the team in win shares. Even when MJ played on the Olympic team full of superstars he insisted on taking the msot shots. They could have swept the whole tourney without him and several other players yet he still needed to be the "star". He did the same thing at 40 with the Wiz. Bothteams would have been better without him trying to be the first option.

The argument was Pippen and Gasol, not Pippen and Odom.

So that means Pippen > Kobe as well right? Afterall if Pippen > Gasol than that means he is better than Kobe as Gasol led the team in win shares.

Not sure why you bringing up Jordan at 40 all the time. Everytime you do that, I'm going to bring this up.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/scores97 ... 132380.htm

The Lakers had a chance to win it in regulation, but Kobe Bryant, who finished with 11 points, shot an air ball at the buzzer.

Bryant would miss three more shots, including two air balls, in the overtime.

And if not than how about this when Kobe lost with Homecourt Advantage and put up one of the worst finals ever.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2 ... nces-Worst

Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers, 2004
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games.

He was at his prime and was worse than an average starter in that series.

Or how about getting outplayed by a guy who had a busted knee in the finals last year?

Kobe as of now in his entire playoff career has 6 games of 40+ and 1 game of 50+. Jordan in a few postseason's alone had that. And in the finals the best Kobe has done was a 36 point game twice.

[kobeaki]

in the last twenty years the only teams with worse supporting casts that have won it all are duncan's spurs, and maybe hakeem's rockets. i exclude the pistons because there was no single superstar with a bunch of supporting guys, it was 3 all stars and other very good role players.

The '91-'93 Bulls were not as talented as these Lakers (outside of MJ/Kobe), and the '98 Bulls were worse as well due to age/injury/level of play from key players that year. A couple of Duncan's Spurs teams were less talented, as were the '06 Heat.

yeah,,,and jordan never had a young squad, ever nor did he a ever see the swarming defenses of the 04 pistons or the 08 celtics...

hell he never had to face a defense like any of the championship spurs teams...

yr point?

[Showtime:Part2]

Pippen and Grant >> Gasol and Odom.
Armstrong, Paxson, Hodges >> Fisher, Farmar, Brown, Vujacic
King, Williams, Cartwright, Purdue < Bynum, Luke, Powell, and Ariza if Bynum can stay healthy and get back to his old self.

Overall they are, but in 1991 they were equal to Gasol and Odom last year.

And this year Gasol led the Lakers in win shares. That didn't happen on the Bulls where someone other than him led the team in win shares.

After the 1991 season Pippen was selected to the Dream Team (although the team didn't play until a year later). He also put the clamps on James Worthy (injured but still) and Magic Johnson.

Pippen>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Odom any day of the week.
Jordan wouldn't ever let anyone else lead the team in win shares. Even when MJ played on the Olympic team full of superstars he insisted on taking the msot shots. They could have swept the whole tourney without him and several other players yet he still needed to be the "star". He did the same thing at 40 with the Wiz. Bothteams would have been better without him trying to be the first option.

The argument was Pippen and Gasol, not Pippen and Odom.

So that means Pippen > Kobe as well right? Afterall if Pippen > Gasol than that means he is better than Kobe as Gasol led the team in win shares.

Not sure why you bringing up Jordan at 40 all the time. Everytime you do that, I'm going to bring this up.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/scores97 ... 132380.htm

The Lakers had a chance to win it in regulation, but Kobe Bryant, who finished with 11 points, shot an air ball at the buzzer.

Bryant would miss three more shots, including two air balls, in the overtime.

And if not than how about this when Kobe lost with Homecourt Advantage and put up one of the worst finals ever.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2 ... nces-Worst

Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers, 2004
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games.

He was at his prime and was worse than an average starter in that series.

Or how about getting outplayed by a guy who had a busted knee in the finals last year?

Kobe as of now in his entire playoff career has 6 games of 40+ and 1 game of 50+. Jordan in a few postseason's alone had that. And in the finals the best Kobe has done was a 36 point game twice.

i wish you at least argued intelligently like j23forever. instead you state that leading in win shares determines who is a better player.

[JordansBulls]

in the last twenty years the only teams with worse supporting casts that have won it all are duncan's spurs, and maybe hakeem's rockets. i exclude the pistons because there was no single superstar with a bunch of supporting guys, it was 3 all stars and other very good role players.

The '91-'93 Bulls were not as talented as these Lakers (outside of MJ/Kobe), and the '98 Bulls were worse as well due to age/injury/level of play from key players that year. A couple of Duncan's Spurs teams were less talented, as were the '06 Heat.

yeah,,,and jordan never had a young squad, ever nor did he a ever see the swarming defenses of the 04 pistons or the 08 celtics...

hell he never had to face a defense like any of the championship spurs teams...

yr point?

So I guess the 2000 Pacers were great as well on defense from them holding Kobe to 15.6 ppg on 37% FG while when MJ played against the better Pacers team in 1998 at 35 he averaged 31.7 ppg, 5.7 rpg on 46% FG

Funny though that Shaq had no problem with the 2004 Pistons Defense even though they had a 4x DPOY at center defending him.

[Old World Order]

in the last twenty years the only teams with worse supporting casts that have won it all are duncan's spurs, and maybe hakeem's rockets. i exclude the pistons because there was no single superstar with a bunch of supporting guys, it was 3 all stars and other very good role players.

The '91-'93 Bulls were not as talented as these Lakers (outside of MJ/Kobe), and the '98 Bulls were worse as well due to age/injury/level of play from key players that year. A couple of Duncan's Spurs teams were less talented, as were the '06 Heat.

yeah,,,and jordan never had a young squad, ever nor did he a ever see the swarming defenses of the 04 pistons or the 08 celtics...

hell he never had to face a defense like any of the championship spurs teams...

yr point?

Whoa.

[JordansBulls]

i wish you at least argued intelligently like j23forever. instead you state that leading in win shares determines who is a better player.

Since Win Shares has existed every MVP winner with the exception of Nash has led their team in Win Shares. How much more arguing do you need?

I want you to be honest here. Has there ever been a stat that ever supported Kobe?

The fact is is there has never been a stat that supported Kobe other than leading the league in scoring twice.

Anytime someone uses any other stat it gets negated by it doesn't matter, that's not important when in effect mostly all other all time greats have led in multiple categories and aggregate stats/metrics..

And just so you know, I use stats where other all time great players have led in that combines their overall production.

[Showtime:Part2]

i wish you at least argued intelligently like j23forever. instead you state that leading in win shares determines who is a better player.

Since Win Shares has existed every MVP winner with the exception of Nash has led their team in Win Shares. How much more arguing do you need?

I want you to be honest here. Has there ever been a stat that ever supported Kobe?

The fact is is there has never been a stat that supported Kobe other than leading the league in scoring twice.

Anytime someone uses any other stat it gets negated by it doesn't matter, that's not important when in effect mostly all other all time greats have led in multiple categories and aggregate stats/metrics..

And just so you know, I use stats where other all time great players have led in that combines their overall production.

ok. you are correct. gasol>kobe. my bad, i was wrong.

[Silver Bullet]

Pippen and Grant >> Gasol and Odom.
Armstrong, Paxson, Hodges >> Fisher, Farmar, Brown, Vujacic
King, Williams, Cartwright, Purdue < Bynum, Luke, Powell, and Ariza if Bynum can stay healthy and get back to his old self.

Overall they are, but in 1991 they were equal to Gasol and Odom last year.

And this year Gasol led the Lakers in win shares. That didn't happen on the Bulls where someone other than him led the team in win shares.

After the 1991 season Pippen was selected to the Dream Team (although the team didn't play until a year later). He also put the clamps on James Worthy (injured but still) and Magic Johnson.

Pippen>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Odom any day of the week.
Jordan wouldn't ever let anyone else lead the team in win shares. Even when MJ played on the Olympic team full of superstars he insisted on taking the msot shots. They could have swept the whole tourney without him and several other players yet he still needed to be the "star". He did the same thing at 40 with the Wiz. Bothteams would have been better without him trying to be the first option.

The argument was Pippen and Gasol, not Pippen and Odom.

So that means Pippen > Kobe as well right? Afterall if Pippen > Gasol than that means he is better than Kobe as Gasol led the team in win shares.

Not sure why you bringing up Jordan at 40 all the time. Everytime you do that, I'm going to bring this up.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/scores97 ... 132380.htm

The Lakers had a chance to win it in regulation, but Kobe Bryant, who finished with 11 points, shot an air ball at the buzzer.

Bryant would miss three more shots, including two air balls, in the overtime.

And if not than how about this when Kobe lost with Homecourt Advantage and put up one of the worst finals ever.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2 ... nces-Worst

Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers, 2004
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games.

He was at his prime and was worse than an average starter in that series.

Or how about getting outplayed by a guy who had a busted knee in the finals last year?

Kobe as of now in his entire playoff career has 6 games of 40+ and 1 game of 50+. Jordan in a few postseason's alone had that. And in the finals the best Kobe has done was a 36 point game twice.

So, serious question ?

Are you seriously saying Gasol is better than Kobe ? Yes or No ?

[kobeaki]

i wish you at least argued intelligently like j23forever. instead you state that leading in win shares determines who is a better player.

Since Win Shares has existed every MVP winner with the exception of Nash has led their team in Win Shares. How much more arguing do you need?

I want you to be honest here. Has there ever been a stat that ever supported Kobe?

The fact is is there has never been a stat that supported Kobe other than leading the league in scoring twice.

Anytime someone uses any other stat it gets negated by it doesn't matter, that's not important when in effect mostly all other all time greats have led in multiple categories and aggregate stats/metrics..

And just so you know, I use stats where other all time great players have led in that combines their overall production.

but you and yr ilk use stats to bolster an agenda that yr pushing....other than that stats are meaningless..., really they are...and kobe fans havent brought up stats to support him, youve brought them up to attack him...

statistics can point to trend, they BOLSTER or support or not, a theory...

benjamin disraeli said ; there are lies, damn lies and there statistics...

i am not making this argument to excuse kobe, as you guys will accuse me of, but just to illustrate that stats , in best of times give only half of a picture...i would never reduce mj fantastic career to numbers, nor magic, as the the previous magic/stockton assist thread...anyone who ever watched those would tell magic was special even outshining stocktons extraordinary talents...

whatevs

[That Nicka]

So I guess the 2000 Pacers were great as well on defense from them holding Kobe to 15.6 ppg on 37% FG while when MJ played against the better Pacers team in 1998 at 35 he averaged 31.7 ppg, 5.7 rpg on 46% FG

lol Kobe was playing on a sprained ankle

and lol at your win shares argument... I guess Marion was better than Nash when he won his MVPs... I guess Horace Grant was better than Pippen in 92 and 93...

[USA]

Since Win Shares has existed every MVP winner with the exception of Nash has led their team in Win Shares. How much more arguing do you need?

I don't get what you are trying to say here. Last season Kobe was the MVP and he lead his team in win shares and PER.

[Gus McCrae]

I'm not really sure what win shares are or where you get those numbers, but I'll just make a couple statements:

1) Lakers and Cavs each have great supporting casts tailored around their respective superstars
2) Cavs supporting cast is underrated; Lakers is rated about where they should be
3) Gasol is EXTREMELY underrated, Lakers are not #1 in the West without him
4) Lakers are not top 4 in the west without Kobe
5) Cavs would make the playoffs without Lebron with a first round exit
6) Lebron will be better than Kobe from here on out, which began this year
7) The Lakers with Lebron/ Wade instead of Kobe are NOT a 72 win team
8) Swap Kobe and Lebron and both teams would have a worse record. The most comparable player that could be swapped with Lebron to give the Cavs a similiar record would be Kevin Durant. The player that you would swap with Kobe for a similiar record is Wade.

[SimonAdebisi]

-Cavs wouldn't make the playoffs without Lebron, no chance at all actually.

-Kevin Durant isn't the all-around player that Lebron is at all, that's actually insulting to James. Lebron is a top 5 defensive player in the NBA.

[JordansBulls]

Since Win Shares has existed every MVP winner with the exception of Nash has led their team in Win Shares. How much more arguing do you need?

I don't get what you are trying to say here. Last season Kobe was the MVP and he lead his team in win shares and PER.

This year Gasol led the team in win shares. Thus he should be the one in the mvp talks as well.

[Benedict_Boozer]

I'm not really sure what win shares are or where you get those numbers, but I'll just make a couple statements:

1) Lakers and Cavs each have great supporting casts tailored around their respective superstars
2) Cavs supporting cast is underrated; Lakers is rated about where they should be
3) Gasol is EXTREMELY underrated, Lakers are not #1 in the West without him
4) Lakers are not top 4 in the west without Kobe
5) Cavs would make the playoffs without Lebron with a first round exit
6) Lebron will be better than Kobe from here on out, which began this year
7) The Lakers with Lebron/ Wade instead of Kobe are NOT a 72 win team
8) Swap Kobe and Lebron and both teams would have a worse record. The most comparable player that could be swapped with Lebron to give the Cavs a similiar record would be Kevin Durant. The player that you would swap with Kobe for a similiar record is Wade.

I didn't have a huge problem with what you were saying until I read #8.

Durant replacing Lebron? Ummm...they are entirely different players. Durant is a jump shooter, doesn't have the play-making or handle of LBJ, isn't the same level defender or rebounder.

Durant is a fine player but suggesting he could replace Lebron and lead the Cavs to a similar record is craziness.

[SimonAdebisi]

I really doubt Cleveland makes the playoffs without Lebron. I'm not a big Lebron fan or anything, nor am I one of these people that underrates his supporting cast, but they're really built perfectly to Lebron as the #1 option.

Most of their 3s come from the attention Lebron receives, he's the best scorer/passer/rebounder/defender on the team, he's the leader, he actually anchors the D. Mike Brown is a solid and underrated coach, but Lebron is the system IMO.

If Lebron wasn't there, their D wouldn't be anywhere near it is now, Mo Williams would be the #1 option, there wouldn't be another guy that can get any attention from the opposing D as a playmaker for his teammates. I don't really see the argument.

[spurket]

Kobe is better than Gasol even though Gasol finished with more win shares.

Gasol finished 4th in win shares behind LeBron, Wade, and Paul.

It seems like Kobe fans have low standards for Kobe.

LeBron, Wade, Paul, Dwight, Dirk, Yao, and Roy all lead their teams in win shares by A LOT.

Kobe didn't even lead his team in win shares, see the difference?

[shobe_81]

Dirk, Yao, and Roy are much better players than Kobe, there is no freaking doubt about that, that's why Gasol had to carry the whole team especially this season.


at these stat geeks

[Jordan23Forever]

Pippen and Grant >> Gasol and Odom.
Armstrong, Paxson, Hodges >> Fisher, Farmar, Brown, Vujacic
King, Williams, Cartwright, Purdue < Bynum, Luke, Powell, and Ariza if Bynum can stay healthy and get back to his old self.

Uhh, no.

Gasol/Odom = Pippen/Grant (Pippen's better than Gasol, Odom's better than Grant, who couldn't do anything on offense individually except spot up)

And even if the Pip/Grant combo have a slight edge on Gasol/Odom, Bynum and Ariza alone are worth more than the rest of the Bulls' roster combined. Bynum/Ariza/Vujacic/Farmar/Brown/Powell > Paxson/King/Hanson/Williams/Hodges, and anyone who isn't an unabashed Lakers homer will tell you so. Bynum and Ariza alone are worth more than any 3 (possibly 4) of those guys combined.

[Jordan23Forever]

Jordan wouldn't ever let anyone else lead the team in win shares.

Your flagrant idiocy and anti-Jordan hysterics know no bounds. It's amazing that some people here (mostly other Laker homers) take you seriously.

Yeah, Jordan leading the team in WS wasn't an outgrowth of his natural dominance, talent, and ability -- like it was for Shaq, or Wilt, or KAJ, or Bird, or Hakeem -- it was because he "wouldn't let" anyone else do so. Okay.

What a sad, dark corner of the universe Laker/Kobe groupies inhabit.