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Hollinger Blames Doc for game 4 loss

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Hollinger Blames Doc for game 4 loss 

Post#1 » by Rocky5000 » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:55 am

About not fouling while up three
Amazingly, the Bulls and Celtics each managed to mangle this situation Sunday. Boston's violation was particularly egregious, as the Bulls inbounded the ball inside the 3-point line before passing it back out for Ben Gordon's game-tying 3-pointer in the first overtime. With the ball near the free-throw line, there was no risk whatsoever of fouling a 3-point shooter, no way to spin a story about what might have happened. Boston was one arm chop away from a 3-1 series lead.

What made it more puzzling was that the offender was 33-year-old veteran Ray Allen, who stood there placidly while John Salmons stood holding the ball with his back to the basket before firing a pass to Gordon.

(Side note: Doc Rivers gave yet another seminar in Media Savvy 101 after the game. I was trying to figure out how he'd address the non-foul without either (A) throwing Allen under the bus, or (B) making it seem like he forgot to tell the team. Doc's quote: "We always foul, but even when you screw it up, they've still got to hit the shot." Genius. And we still don't know if "you" means Doc or Allen was the one who screwed it up.)

In the second overtime, it was Chicago's turn. As the clock ticked down from 16 seconds the Bulls allowed Rajon Rondo to dribble unmolested up the court, rather than fouling the 64 percent free-throw shooter and eliminating the possibility of a game-tying 3.

I take it this happened because Vinny Del Negro didn't trust rookie Derrick Rose to pull it off without screwing it up and fouling Rondo in the act of shooting, which is exactly what happened to little-used Linton Johnson two games earlier. His postgame comments reinforced that point.

"People think it's easy to foul sometimes," Del Negro said. "But all of a sudden you foul and they are in the act of shooting. Pierce was in that situation and we gave him three free throws earlier in the series."

Of course, Rose didn't need to be on the court for that play, something we'll discuss in a minute.

...
In fact, Adelman made the same Hayes-for-Yao, back-and-forth, offense-defense substitution three times in the final nine seconds, continually optimizing the units he had on the floor for the particular situation.

The incorrect way to do it, on the other hand, was illustrated by the Celtics and Bulls … again and again and again and again.

I'm sorry to point this out since it was such a thrilling game -- especially since Doc obviously has had better moments coaching, and Vinny probably will in the future -- but go back and watch a tape of this thing. It's like watching a chess match between Jessica Simpson and Pauly Shore.

You don't believe me? Check out these situations:

With 1:06 left and the game tied at 91, Boston's Ray Allen is shooting a free throw, while Del Negro stands poised to call timeout afterward (we can presume this because he ended up calling timeout seven seconds later when the Bulls finally got the ball).

In other words, the only play that could possibly happen between the free throw and the timeout is a defensive rebound situation. But instead of subbing in Brad Miller or Tyrus Thomas, Del Negro left John Salmons as the "big man" on the block. Rajon Rondo went around him to grab the offensive rebound, and only a tripping foul seconds later on Kendrick Perkins averted disaster.

Amazingly, this happened again. With 18 seconds left in overtime, Boston up by two and Paul Pierce at the line, Del Negro again left his best rebounders on the bench right before a timeout. This time, however, his team grabbed the carom

With a three-point lead and 16 seconds remaining in regulation, Del Negro came out of a timeout with his key defender, Kirk Hinrich, on Paul Pierce, even though Boston's best shooter, Ray Allen, was the main threat in that situation. With a two-point deficit and 39 seconds remaining in the first overtime, he had Hinrich on Allen and Salmons on Pierce, despite the high likelihood of an isolation play for Pierce. Thus his best defender was out of the play on two of the biggest possessions of the game.

At least Hinrich was on the court, which is more than can be said for Lindsey Hunter. At every key moment, Del Negro left his worst perimeter defender, Rose, on the court, while the veteran Hunter -- who is in the league only for his defense -- stayed on the bench. Hunter played one possession at the end of the first half, and that was it.

Even in situations such as the two referenced above, in which the only outcome was a defensive possession followed by a timeout or a foul, Del Negro didn't put Hunter in; instead, we got to see Rose get hung up on a screen for the 183rd time in four games as Allen knocked in a game-tying 3 to send it to overtime. And of course, on that final play in the second overtime, Hunter could have been brought in to pressure the ball and give a foul.

If you think Doc gets off easy here, guess again. On a positive note, he did manage to ace the "put your best rebounders in the game on an opponent free throw before a timeout" test (for instance, he put Brian Scalabrine in for Eddie House with 16 seconds left in regulation and Tyrus Thomas shooting a free throw, and then put House back in for Scalabrine after the timeout. Take note, Vinny. It's not that hard.)

But he's going to be kicking himself for his choice with 39 seconds left in the first overtime. With Boston up by two and having the ball, and Del Negro undoubtedly calling timeout afterward if Boston were to score, he somehow decided to leave the offensively challenged Scalabrine on the court rather than summoning House, Boston's third-leading scorer on a per-minute basis this year. Of course, Scalabrine committed a clear-path foul after Pierce had the ball stolen and fouled out of the game.

Rivers did the same thing with 52 seconds left in regulation and the Celtics down by two, though this is easier to excuse because of the need to rebound a potential missed free throw (Derrick Rose was at the line and Rivers didn't call timeout after the shots).

Of course, then there's the big-picture lineup decision he made: putting in Scalabrine to start the first overtime instead of House, or Marbury, or Tony Allen, or Mikki Moore, or, well, anybody. He'd played six minutes in the preceding two months, and hadn't exactly been enjoying a distinguished career before that point.

And obviously, we still don't know how or why the Celtics failed to foul at the end of the first overtime.

So while all three games were exciting, the tacticians in the audience saw three very different types of battles. Between the lineups and the timeouts, we had the basketball equivalent of a kindergarten class (Boston-Chicago) followed by a grad school seminar (Adelman vs. the Blazers) with the Bizarro series in between just to shake us up a little.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/ ... iem-090427

Do you agree with him? What do you think really happened during that possession? Did Doc want to foul, but forgot to tell the team, or did Ray miss the instruction, or did Doc not even consider fouling? Should we have played Eddie over Scal?
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Re: Hollinger Blames Doc for game 4 loss 

Post#2 » by JR Hawks » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:21 am

Frankly, I'm surprised there isn't more outrage over that play. Somebody cost us the game. I'd like to know who.
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Re: Hollinger Blames Doc for game 4 loss 

Post#3 » by s1ickd » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:14 am

The foul/no foul dilemma has credible arguments on both sides so I won't agree or disagree.

However, the situation where House got torched by the entire Bulls backcourt... using the same play... for like 6 minutes streight... in the 4th QUARTER..... that was horrible. a quick timeout to put in stephon marbury or tony allen woiuld have saved like 6 points.
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Re: Hollinger Blames Doc for game 4 loss 

Post#4 » by perfectblack999 » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:24 am

as a competitive person i hate the foul before the 3 point shot....i'd rather see if someone can put his money where his mouth is and nail it, even if i'm on the other team....but i concede that it's the smarter decision
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Re: Hollinger Blames Doc for game 4 loss 

Post#5 » by Bleeding Green » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:27 am

The foul/no foul is whatever because Ben Gordon still had to hit a really tough shot with Pierce right on his shooting hand, off balance. I'm in favor of always fouling there, but it has to be done with 100% certainty without the guy in the act of shooting. Or if he's somehow in the act of shooting it better be a 2 and you better wrap him up so that he can't actually get a shot off. This is hard to do, but Salmons received the inbounds pass with his back to the basket. A foul there is about as easy as it gets. Someone screwed that up, but like I said Ben Gordon still had to hit a very difficult 3.

Why the Celtics couldn't get a shot off at the end is stupid. Too often teams dribble the air out of the ball and then hastily make some ISO move and hoist up a stupid jumper. Run an actual play like you've been doing all game long, idiots. And run it as quickly as you can. No standing around dribbling.
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Re: Hollinger Blames Doc for game 4 loss 

Post#6 » by Kefa461 » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:05 am

Move on.......the next game awaits......... 8-)


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Re: Hollinger Blames Doc for game 4 loss 

Post#7 » by Fencer reregistered » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:45 am

I'm not convinced the foul was right. You foul them, they foul you back, and if the FTs go wrong they only are down 1 or 2 instead of 3, admittedly with less time on the clock.
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Re: Hollinger Blames Doc for game 4 loss 

Post#8 » by MyInsatiableOne » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:50 am

Most people here know how I feel about Hollinger...he can go **** lick it for all I care. It's not like Gordon had an easy shot...that was about as tough a 3 as you'll ever take, and he nailed it. **** off, Hollinger!
It's still 17 to 11!!!!
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Re: Hollinger Blames Doc for game 4 loss 

Post#9 » by celticsnut » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:38 am

I still think its a no brainer, I mean what is the real chance that if you fouled a person shooting a three that it goes in and they make the free throw and you lose? Heaven forbid you foul someone for three free throws, but knocking all three down isn't a gimme either. If that did happen, we still have 6 or 7 seconds left to try and win. With that being said, Ray should have fouled Salmons, his back was to the basket and he couldnt hurt us there. Although I said it before the playoffs started, PP has been struggling from the free throw line the last couple months so I am not suprised that he has missed a couple big ones. Hopefully we can take the swing game tonight. Go C's!
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Re: Hollinger Blames Doc for game 4 loss 

Post#10 » by sully00 » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:32 pm

The problem with fouling Salmons at 9 seconds is that you are extending the game when the clock is your friend. Salmons is a great FT shooter, the most likely scenario to play out is they make theirs and you make yours and for you to be in the exact same position with two less seconds on the clock. Do you foul again? If you can get it to 5 then it is worth it but I think 9 is too much time the play was to deny Gordon the ball and they did a lousy job of it.
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Re: Hollinger Blames Doc for game 4 loss 

Post#11 » by celticsnut » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:49 pm

The real travesty was with 4.5 left after Gordon hit the three, Rondo takes a pull up from 18 ft at the buzzer out of a time out. That needs to be a different shot.
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Re: Hollinger Blames Doc for game 4 loss 

Post#12 » by UGA Hayes » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:56 pm

Yeah, why is it a no-brainer to foul when there is 9 seconds on the the clock. Plenty of bad things can go wrong. We could get the ball in the wrong persons hands (Perk, rondo), someone can miss FT (s). In the situation that actually played out the worst thing that could happen is going to overtime. In Hollinger's situation there a pretty good chance we come back up by only 2 points and a 3 now beats us and a 2 ties us, and heavens forbid if we miss both freebies any shot beats us and they have 7 seconds instead of 9 seconds to get that shot, a negligible time disparity in my mind. The only time it makes sense to foul to me is if there is 2-4 seconds on the clock max.

As for the rest of his article I'd have to check the tape, but it reads like he makes a lot of assumptions, some of which don't sound that sound.
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Re: Hollinger Blames Doc for game 4 loss 

Post#13 » by chakdaddy » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:54 pm

Yeah, I don't completely like the idea of fouling with that much time left.

If you foul them and they make both free throws, then the BEST case scenario is that you make both free throws and you're right back where you started.

If you foul, potentially they can make both, you can miss one, and now they have a chance at a 3 for the win instead of OT.

I guess it depends if the other team has timeouts or not. If they didn't have any time outs, then forcing them to go the whole length of the court is worthwhile, using the foul to run off some clock. Otherwise, if the other team has a timeout, I see the foul as extending the game, which is generally a good thing for the team that's behind.
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Re: Hollinger Blames Doc for game 4 loss 

Post#14 » by Rocky5000 » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:58 pm

I can see the argument about them coming back and needing something other than a 3, but we should also remember that Chicago burned their last time out before the Gordon shot. With no time outs, getting a quality shot with 6 or 7 seconds left becomes a lot harder. We also have Ray Allen, who's the best in the game at hitting FTs, so the possibility that we miss one of those 2 is slim.

The thing that really got to me, that Hollinger didn't mention was how predictable our offense became in the 4th and the 2nd overtime. We were going to Pierce every time, and the Bulls knew it. Paul coughed the ball up a couple times, and couldn't hit the shot. Ray on the other hand, seemed to be playing really well, and we didn't even try to feed him the ball. It's strange because in the 2nd overtime when we built the 5 point lead, we were using both Paul and Ray, but in the 2nd overtime it went back to exclusively Paul.
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Re: Hollinger Blames Doc for game 4 loss 

Post#15 » by hickfromfrenchlick » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:53 pm

Wait, Hollinger wrote something without a calculator in his hand?
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Re: Hollinger Blames Doc for game 4 loss 

Post#16 » by MyInsatiableOne » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:30 pm

hickfromfrenchlick wrote:Wait, Hollinger wrote something without a calculator in his hand?


Yet it still sucked just as bad....
It's still 17 to 11!!!!
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Re: Hollinger Blames Doc for game 4 loss 

Post#17 » by Zin5 » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:01 pm

Fencer reregistered wrote:I'm not convinced the foul was right. You foul them, they foul you back, and if the FTs go wrong they only are down 1 or 2 instead of 3, admittedly with less time on the clock.

This. I mean, fundamentally, it would've been the right play in hindsight, but I'd say the odds would be higher that the Bulls would have gotten the ball back only down by two if we fouled than they would have been if we had let Gordon take the shot. Effectively, he made that shot, so it looks like a bad move.

Also, Salmons, if he saw he was going to get fouled on the inbound pass, could have put up a shot, landed it, gotten the and one, and made that. Just too many what ifs and I think overall we just got shot in the foot by luck. There was still time on the clock so we should have converted. I had a bigger problem with us not attacking the hoop more in the two overtime periods than I do with not fouling.

hickfromfrenchlick wrote:Wait, Hollinger wrote something without a calculator in his hand?

Also this. :lol:
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Re: Hollinger Blames Doc for game 4 loss 

Post#18 » by jfs1000d » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:56 pm

celticsnut wrote:I still think its a no brainer, I mean what is the real chance that if you fouled a person shooting a three that it goes in and they make the free throw and you lose? Heaven forbid you foul someone for three free throws, but knocking all three down isn't a gimme either. If that did happen, we still have 6 or 7 seconds left to try and win. With that being said, Ray should have fouled Salmons, his back was to the basket and he couldnt hurt us there. Although I said it before the playoffs started, PP has been struggling from the free throw line the last couple months so I am not suprised that he has missed a couple big ones. Hopefully we can take the swing game tonight. Go C's!


Two points. If you foul and let's assume a guy makes the first free throw, and then misses the second. Then, the rebound gets kicked out for a 3. BAM, u lose.

You considering fouling with 10 seconds to go. 5 seconds or lest I think it is automatic as long as it is not the act of shooting. But, you do worrry about the 1-for2 and then guy hits a jackout three off an offensive rebound.

Play defense.

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