Laker's supporting cast - over rated ?

[Baller 24]

So your evidence of a team not being good defensively is Prime Shaq ? Seriously ?

Prime? I don't know about that. Maybe '04, but in '06 that was Wade's team, my statement is just to state the overall front-court defense of those Pistons is severely overrated. I can throw out Karl Malone, before he had to sit due to injuries, there is in no way that defensive scheme is one of the best in league history.

Maybe because Larry Brown let him score his 25 + points a game, but stop all other players and the offence shemes of Phil Jackson AND outrebound the LA Lakers. Watch the games, or you preffer reading stats?

No, I'm just baffled at people who consider that team to be one of the best defensive teams in league history.

I just continuously get pure comic relief from posters that really believe in the stuff they type, and those are all Kobe fanboys.

[Baller 24]

that's because he's freaking shaq. that's what he does to everyone. he even put up great numbers as a young'un vs. a prime hakeem. a prime shaq? who can actually stop that?

Alright, Kobe shot 38% that series, but why does that turn into an excuse for Laker fans saying that Detroit team had unbelievable defense? D-Wade two years after, where that Detroit team won 64 games (league leading), and Prince was twice the defender he was when he faced Kobe, averaged:

Code: Select all

FG   REB   AST   PTS
.818   3   5   25
.550   7   5   32
.765   8   4   35
.727   6   5   31
.550   3   4   23
.400   4   10   14

I don't understand how Kobe fans use "incredible defense" as an excuse to justify how Jordan wouldn't do that against an "incredible defense" kobeaki when he consistently did it against the 90s Knicks, who are considered one of the top 5-8 greatest defensive teams in league history anchored by Ewing.

[shobe_81]

How old are u kind? You know the defense Wade played against wasn't the same 04 defense? The Pistons were a very physical and allowed to hand-check. They really started to force the hand-check rule after than 04 series.

But Kobe played bad. And what does this have to do with Jordan? FYI, Jordan had his bad bad days against the Pistons.

And stay on topic

[Frosty]

I don't understand how Kobe fans use "incredible defense" as an excuse

Don't you get it, whenever any team shuts down Kobe they HAVE to be one of the best defenses ever, otherwise *gasp* maybe Kobe isn't the god some fans think he is.

This thread separates the LA fans from the Kobe fans. I mean any LA fan would be standing up for their team, I mean they have a great lineup but once again Kobe fans need a mental 'out' so their heads don't explode if they face another failed attempt at a title. Of course they may face Cleveland and if they lose well Cleveland would be the next best defensive team ever.

[Baller 24]

How old are u kind? You know the defense Wade played against wasn't the same 04 defense? The Pistons were a very physical and allowed to hand-check. They really started to force the hand-check rule after than 04 series.

But Kobe played bad. And what does this have to do with Jordan? FYI, Jordan had his bad bad days against the Pistons.

And stay on topic

I'm just responding to kobeaki in the previous pages. That Pistons team perimeter defense got stronger, one of the reasons they won 64 games that season, Prince was twice the player he was from '04, and everyone on their team knew their entire role.

[shobe_81]

another Kobe hater coming in a whining, what a surprise

Were the 03-04 Pistons not one of the best defensive teams Frosty?

[Gus McCrae]

I'm not really sure what win shares are or where you get those numbers, but I'll just make a couple statements:

1) Lakers and Cavs each have great supporting casts tailored around their respective superstars
2) Cavs supporting cast is underrated; Lakers is rated about where they should be
3) Gasol is EXTREMELY underrated, Lakers are not #1 in the West without him
4) Lakers are not top 4 in the west without Kobe
5) Cavs would make the playoffs without Lebron with a first round exit
6) Lebron will be better than Kobe from here on out, which began this year
7) The Lakers with Lebron/ Wade instead of Kobe are NOT a 72 win team
8) Swap Kobe and Lebron and both teams would have a worse record. The most comparable player that could be swapped with Lebron to give the Cavs a similiar record would be Kevin Durant. The player that you would swap with Kobe for a similiar record is Wade.

I didn't have a huge problem with what you were saying until I read #8.

Durant replacing Lebron? Ummm...they are entirely different players. Durant is a jump shooter, doesn't have the play-making or handle of LBJ, isn't the same level defender or rebounder.

Durant is a fine player but suggesting he could replace Lebron and lead the Cavs to a similar record is craziness.

Yeah, I meant to say that Durant would be a better replacement than Kobe because Durant is more similiar to Lebron being a SF and a closer size, yet still a great playmaker. But after thinking further, Kobe would probably be the best replacement for Lebron for the Cavs to have a remotely similiar record.

[shobe_81]

I'm just responding to kobeaki in the previous pages. That Pistons team perimeter defense got stronger, one of the reasons they won 64 games that season, Prince was twice the player he was from '04, and everyone on their team knew their entire role.

That's fine but here's my opinion about the 03-04 Pistons, yes Kobe played like crap in the series, by far his worst series, but that Pistons team was something. Larry Brown also owned Phil, every play out of the timeouts was a backdoor lob to Ben Wallace or to Prince.

In the playoffs alone they held:

the Nets to 56 Points and to 69 Points.
the Pacers to 67 Points, and twice to 65 points in consecutive games
the Lakers to 68 Points

In the Regular Season some of their best defensive performances:

In 5 straight games, they held their opponents to 68, 66, 65, 65, 69 Points

When was the last time that happened? Holding 5 straight opponenets to less than 70Pts.

In 2006 Season when the Heat beat the 64 Win Pistons, only once the Pistons held a team to less than 70Pts the entire season.

And look how bad the Lakers got destroyed on the boards:

Offensive Rebounds per game:

Rip Hamilton 2.40 Offensive Rebounds (SG)
Rasheed 1.40 Offensive Rebounds
Ben Wallace 3.80 Offensive Rebounds
Prince 3.00 Offensive Rebounds
Lindsey Hunter: 1.20 Offensive Rebounds (PG)

[shobe_81]

But why is a knock on only Kobe for playing bad that series?

It was only a 2 man team (Kobe/Shaq).

Fisher: 30% FG
Devean George 39% FG
Karl Malone 33% FG
Gary Payton 32% FG

And that's just the starting line-up:

Their bench consisted of: Kareem Rush, Slava Medvedenko, Luke Walton, Brian Cook, Rick Fox, and Byron Russell. Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Rick Fox 57%, but played 10 Minutes per game for only 3 games.

[guy1]

And last year was last year. With Bynum and Ariza, Gasol having his best season, and this team having their experiences of last year, this team is different. Another thing, toughness also comes from a team's leader, so maybe something could be said about Kobe for that. I wouldn't say Kobe is soft, maybe he is just not tough enough. Almost every championship team that has been considered "tough" has had a ruthless leader that would've never let their team blow a 24-point lead or get blown out by 40 in the Finals.

Just because you as a single player are tough, doesn't mean your team is going to be tough. Let me help:

Farmar
Sasha
Luke
Odom
Gasol

Where do you see TOUGH in these players? The closest probably is Odom

compared to when you go up against

Rondo
Garnett
Perkins
Leon Powe

My point is that most great players influence there team's toughness. Russell, Bird, Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq have all done this. There all whole teams weren't just filled with naturally tough players. They all had multiple teammates that have been considered "soft" at some point in their careers.

[Benedict_Boozer]

Yeah, I meant to say that Durant would be a better replacement than Kobe because Durant is more similiar to Lebron being a SF and a closer size, yet still a great playmaker. But after thinking further, Kobe would probably be the best replacement for Lebron for the Cavs to have a remotely similiar record.

Durant isn't a great playmaker though - that is the main difference I was alluding to. He has averaged more turnovers than assists in both his 1st 2 seasons with an A/TO ratio this year of 0.91. Compare that to Lebron - 2.11 A/TO ratio - that is a HUGE difference. Not trying to knock Durant, he is a great scorer, but him and LBJ are really different players.

[Frosty]

:lol: another Kobe hater coming in a whining, what a surprise

Were the 03-04 Pistons not one of the best defensive teams Frosty?

Just like you need an excuse for Kobe, you need an excuse for yourselves. There's hardly a true Kobe hater on this board, we all think he's top 15 ever. We just don't like Kobe fanatics that constantly overhype his strengths, ignore his weaknesses, give he credit for every achievement and make excuses for every downfall. We aren't Kobe haters, but I know your head might explode over this too so continue to believe so...

As for defense, it doesn't matter how they rank historically, Kobe was getting shut down and continued to force his game. Shaq would be waving for the ball and Kobe would ignore him in an attempt to be the man. He stopped playing the triangle which would have given them a hope and left Phil scratching his head about it in the offseason. That's Kobe's biggest weakness he doesn't take advantage of what the defense gives him, he tries to force his own way on the defense. When Wade saw a change in defense the other night he switched and starting draining outside shots. Kobe rarely adapts during a game, he'll force bad shots all night long.

[Tesla]

I'm just responding to kobeaki in the previous pages. That Pistons team perimeter defense got stronger, one of the reasons they won 64 games that season, Prince was twice the player he was from '04, and everyone on their team knew their entire role.

No. The 03-04 Pistons were undeniably better defensive team, especially on the perimeter. Both because of the rules at the time and because they were on a tear. They held teams to under 80points regularly that year and in the playoffs, they even had a string of holding teams to sub 70 points that year. They were better defensively in any statistical measure I can see as well.

Tayshaun Prince wasn't twice the defender he was, and he simply matches up better with jump shooting guards rather than slashers, just as Hinrich probably matches up better against Wade than he would fair against Kobe. Just different match-ups, and a different team.

It's like comparing Jame's finals appearance/stats against the San Antonio Spurs, then a year later comparing Kobe's stats in the WCF against them, they aren't close, but the two are on the same level as players (at least at that time).

[JordansBulls]

I don't understand how Kobe fans use "incredible defense" as an excuse

Don't you get it, whenever any team shuts down Kobe they HAVE to be one of the best defenses ever, otherwise *gasp* maybe Kobe isn't the god some fans think he is.

This thread separates the LA fans from the Kobe fans. I mean any LA fan would be standing up for their team, I mean they have a great lineup but once again Kobe fans need a mental 'out' so their heads don't explode if they face another failed attempt at a title. Of course they may face Cleveland and if they lose well Cleveland would be the next best defensive team ever.

What separates a Kobe fan from a real Lakers fan is the 2004 finals. Kobe fans would say they lost because Shaq was out of shape or the Detroit defense, when in effect Shaq averaged 27 and 11 on 63% FG.


What's funny is they use that as their excuse. But what about the 2000 finals against Indiana? He averaged 15.6 ppg on 37% FG. That Indiana team in 2000 nearly lost in round 1 and won the deciding game by 1 point at home. Indiana was much better in 1998 (that's when they had that extra body of Antonio Davis down low) and MJ averaged 31.7 ppg on 46% on them in the conference finals.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I don't understand how Kobe fans use "incredible defense" as an excuse

Don't you get it, whenever any team shuts down Kobe they HAVE to be one of the best defenses ever, otherwise *gasp* maybe Kobe isn't the god some fans think he is.

This thread separates the LA fans from the Kobe fans. I mean any LA fan would be standing up for their team, I mean they have a great lineup but once again Kobe fans need a mental 'out' so their heads don't explode if they face another failed attempt at a title. Of course they may face Cleveland and if they lose well Cleveland would be the next best defensive team ever.

What separates a Kobe fan from a real Lakers fan is the 2004 finals. Kobe fans would say they lost because Shaq was out of shape or the Detroit defense, when in effect Shaq averaged 27 and 11 on 63% FG.


What's funny is they use that as their excuse. But what about the 2000 finals against Indiana? He averaged 15.6 ppg on 37% FG. That Indiana team in 2000 nearly lost in round 1 and won the deciding game by 1 point at home. Indiana was much better in 1998 (that's when they had that extra body of Antonio Davis down low) and MJ averaged 31.7 ppg on 46% on them in the conference finals.

Do you actually WATCH games, or just boxscores??? LA lost in 04' because no one outside of Kobe and Shaq scored in double figures until game 5. Malone getting hurt killed them because he was their 3rd option.

In 00' Kobe was very good. His average is low because he got hurt in a game early on(which dropped his ppg significantly), and played the rest of the series on a bad wheel.

[Frosty]

Do you actually WATCH games, or just boxscores??? LA lost in 04' because no one outside of Kobe and Shaq scored in double figures until game 5.

Let me paste a post game quote from game 4

"I'm very upset," said O'Neal, who made 16-of-21 shots. "We let one slip away. ... We had it, just in the fourth quarter, we made some mistakes."

One of those mistakes was not giving the ball enough to O'Neal. As they have throughout the series, the Pistons shut down most of O'Neal's teammates and bothered Bryant, who made just 8-of-25 shots as he fired away at will and made Detroit's job much easier.

"Some of them were good and some of them stunk," said Bryant, who didn't shoot a free throw until late in the fourth quarter. "That's pretty much every game with me."

The Lakers didn't change their lineup, but they did change their strategy, force-feeding O'Neal early on. He was 5-of-5 with three dunks in the first quarter. But he had just one touch in the last seven minutes as Bryant kept misfiring.

That's pretty much what the rest of us that watched the games saw.

[eatyourchildren]

1. Lakers' supporting cast, by now, has been analyzed ad nauseum. They are the most talented supporting cast. Sometimes they get complacent. They aren't dominant defensively. They score easily.

2. Cavs' supporting cast still gets underappreciated. They are top-notch defensively, if not the best in this league. Mo provides enough scoring punch by himself to complement LeBron. They are scrappy and never ease up.

3. Lakers lost on 04 because of a host of reasons. Everyone not named Shaq shot poorly. Malone was a shell of his former self at that point. Payton didn't work well within the triangle. The Pistons were hungry, and more importantly was coached by Larry Brown, something glaringly apparent as a missing factor for the Pistons after that.

[Blame Rasho]

1. Lakers' supporting cast, by now, has been analyzed ad nauseum. They are the most talented supporting cast. Sometimes they get complacent. They aren't dominant defensively. They score easily.

2. Cavs' supporting cast still gets underappreciated. They are top-notch defensively, if not the best in this league. Mo provides enough scoring punch by himself to complement LeBron. They are scrappy and never ease up.

3. Lakers lost on 04 because of a host of reasons. Everyone not named Shaq shot poorly. Malone was a shell of his former self at that point. Payton didn't work well within the triangle. The Pistons were hungry, and more importantly was coached by Larry Brown, something glaringly apparent as a missing factor for the Pistons after that.

Very well said...

[Silver Bullet]

So your evidence of a team not being good defensively is Prime Shaq ? Seriously ?

Prime? I don't know about that. Maybe '04, but in '06 that was Wade's team, my statement is just to state the overall front-court defense of those Pistons is severely overrated. I can throw out Karl Malone, before he had to sit due to injuries, there is in no way that defensive scheme is one of the best in league history.

Maybe because Larry Brown let him score his 25 + points a game, but stop all other players and the offence shemes of Phil Jackson AND outrebound the LA Lakers. Watch the games, or you preffer reading stats?

No, I'm just baffled at people who consider that team to be one of the best defensive teams in league history.

I just continuously get pure comic relief from posters that really believe in the stuff they type, and those are all Kobe fanboys.

Showing Shaq had a good series against the Pistons front court does not show anything. Shaq could dominate a front court of Russell and Rodman, that wouldn't mean they were bad defensively. How about you post the stats of some other guys against them to prove your point.

[kobeaki]

that's because he's freaking shaq. that's what he does to everyone. he even put up great numbers as a young'un vs. a prime hakeem. a prime shaq? who can actually stop that?

Alright, Kobe shot 38% that series, but why does that turn into an excuse for Laker fans saying that Detroit team had unbelievable defense? D-Wade two years after, where that Detroit team won 64 games (league leading), and Prince was twice the defender he was when he faced Kobe, averaged:

Code: Select all

FG   REB   AST   PTS
.818   3   5   25
.550   7   5   32
.765   8   4   35
.727   6   5   31
.550   3   4   23
.400   4   10   14

I don't understand how Kobe fans use "incredible defense" as an excuse to justify how Jordan wouldn't do that against an "incredible defense" kobeaki when he consistently did it against the 90s Knicks, who are considered one of the top 5-8 greatest defensive teams in league history anchored by Ewing.

really? i watched those games/series...and whether they were considered great or not(i never heard that) they werent the swarm-style and/or zones that all players face now...so just admit the game is different at this time, much of which is BECAUSE of jordan...

those knicks teams were fun, and good...they WERE NOT as i said earlier defensively or otherwise anything close to the duncanspurs, the larry brown pistons nor the tom thibedeax(?) celtics...

like i said, baller24, i watched all those games live as they happened, it sounds like you did not though...

one question...if yr so convinced that kobe is overrated....why go to much trouble to attack attack attack?

in my case, i come here to read about basketball. and constantly being attacked for being a laker fan, a kobe fan, by kids who dont watch the lakers, and havent even seen jordan play...and am constantly thrown into the defensive...