Lawson vs Vaughn

granger05 · Post #1 » by **granger05** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:39 am

I was really disappointed when we traded away Bayless last year. I liked Rush and Jack (even more now), but at the time I was disappointed. Looking at prospects in the draft this year, I'm struck by how similar Jeff Teague's numbers, size, and mentality are to Bayless. He shot better, and his A-T ratio was a little worse. You can argue about who had better teammates I guess since Wake has two other 1st round prospects, but Bayless had Hill and Budinger in AZ as well, and they made it to the sweet-16 without him this year.

I'm just curious what others think of this comparison, and I also think it's interesting that I'm not that interested in getting Teague. I wouldnt' be bummed out if we selected him, but I'm not nearly as high on him as I was on Bayless even in a weaker draft. I don't know if this is because I've been reminded that shoot-first PGs rarely succeed or because deep down I don't like Teague as much.

freeman · Post #2 » by **freeman** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:49 am

I think Teague is in the same mold as Shannon Brown and Louis Williams - undersized lightning fast sg's but are not "true" polished pg's, and not so solid pg skills.
I think Bayless have more playmaking skills than Teague. And physically, i think Bayless has the edge.
My concern is, if Teague would add 10-15 lbs to his frame, it might somehow affect his game, it could affect his vertical, and his speed. He's just too small and too thin to weave his way to the basket and drop an ala-Monta Ellis acrobatic shot.
I wouldn't be surprised if Larry picks him at 13 though. He's one of the best talents in this year's draft.
He just needs to develop his playmaking skills. The Kevin Johnson comparison wouldn't be feasible unless he develops into a pure pg.

granger05 · Post #3 » by **granger05** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:39 pm

I agree that Teague's PG skills need to be developed, but I'm not sure how much further along Bayless' are. Obviously, Bayless is bigger and stronger (for some reason I had gotten it into my head that their weights were similar from their draftexpress profiles which surprised me, on revisiting that I see that Bayless has Teague by almost 20 pounds). However, Teague still has a knack for getting to the rim which shows up in his FT attempts and also in these situational stats that draftexpress is touting right now. Tony Parker is about Teague's size and he's been very successful attacking the rim. I get the feel that Teague and Bayless have very similar styles, although I haven't watched either of them play very much.

I wouldn't mind getting him at 13, but I'm not sure he fits in with what Bird has said we need. He seems focused on a bigger PG (Jrue Holiday?

).

xxSnEaKyPxx · Post #4 » by **xxSnEaKyPxx** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:03 pm

I'd much rather have Lawson or Curry than Teague to be honest. I think Lou Williams is a good comparison, and I don't like combo guards. I think Curry is very underrated as a PG, actually a good playmaker.

granger05 · Post #5 » by **granger05** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:22 pm

I'm not sold on Lawson. I think you have to be really special to compete at that size, and he's good, but not really special. I like Curry too. He's a bit all over in the mock drafts. Most have him gone by our pick, but others have him in the late teens. I saw several of his games, and I was also impressed by his play making especially considering the lack of finishers on his team. I think he'll be good, and he's also marketable already which would be nice for the Pacers. Here's my personal PG rating:

Rubio
Jennings
Curry
Holiday
Teague
Maynor
Lawson
Flynn
Calathes (can't guard a chair, but that just means he'll fit in).

xxSnEaKyPxx · Post #6 » by **xxSnEaKyPxx** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:27 pm

I think he is special, I mean, I don't think he's going to be Chris Paul or anything, but he has T.J. Fords speed, Jarrett Jack's toughness and mentality, unbelievable finishing ability, and a good basketball I.Q.(A/TO ratio is insane). He constantly broke down other teams defenses, he won many games and lost 0. Thats my type of PG.

granger05 · Post #7 » by **granger05** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:36 pm

Actually, I don't disagree with any of what you're saying so maybe I'm underrating Lawson. I suppose it's the consequence of feeling too familiar with somebody. The unknown starts to hold more promise.

cdash · Post #8 » by **cdash** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:04 pm

DGrangeRx33 wrote:I think he is special, I mean, I don't think he's going to be Chris Paul or anything, but he has T.J. Fords speed, Jarrett Jack's toughness and mentality, unbelievable finishing ability, and a good basketball I.Q.(A/TO ratio is insane). He constantly broke down other teams defenses, he won many games and lost 0. Thats my type of PG.

Yeah, I think you are exagerrating a bit. Not sure he has TJ's speed, not sure he has Jack's toughness, not sure he wasn't the beneficiary of playing on a supremely talented team. I don't like his size, I don't like his inability to go left (it may not have hurt him in college, but it will in the NBA), and I'm just skeptical of him overall. I think he will be decent, but nothing special. Out of the PGs in the draft, I'd have him behind: Rubio, Jennings, Curry, Holiday, Maynor and Calathes.

xxSnEaKyPxx · Post #9 » by **xxSnEaKyPxx** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:28 pm

cdash wrote:
DGrangeRx33 wrote:I think he is special, I mean, I don't think he's going to be Chris Paul or anything, but he has T.J. Fords speed, Jarrett Jack's toughness and mentality, unbelievable finishing ability, and a good basketball I.Q.(A/TO ratio is insane). He constantly broke down other teams defenses, he won many games and lost 0. Thats my type of PG.

Yeah, I think you are exagerrating a bit. Not sure he has TJ's speed, not sure he has Jack's toughness, not sure he wasn't the beneficiary of playing on a supremely talented team. I don't like his size, I don't like his inability to go left (it may not have hurt him in college, but it will in the NBA), and I'm just skeptical of him overall. I think he will be decent, but nothing special. Out of the PGs in the draft, I'd have him behind: Rubio, Jennings, Curry, Holiday, Maynor and Calathes.

Oh hes faster than Ford, I can promise that after having watched them both many times. When I said he has Jack's toughness, I was referring to him being willing to take a bruising while going to the paint, hes initiates contact with bigger, stronger players like Jack does. You say he was the beneficiary of playing on a supremely talented team, but he was the best player on the team? Whats that say about him? He was a top recruit, he wasn't some unknown who made it big because of the team around him. As for his "inability to go left", he can go left, but he could beat everyone in college basketball off the dribble going right. When push comes to shove he can go left, and while he needs to improve that, its not one of those skills that can't be learned.

I'd have him behind Rubio and Jennings, a toss up with Curry with the edge to Lawson, Holiday close behind, then Maynor and Calathes far behind.

cdash · Post #10 » by **cdash** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:17 pm

He can go left, but never does? Even if it would make him that much harder to guard? I'm not buying that. I just don't think he will be that good. Best case scenario=Jameer Nelson.

Post #11 » by **Grang33r** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:25 pm

granger05 wrote:I agree that Teague's PG skills need to be developed, but I'm not sure how much further along Bayless' are. Obviously, Bayless is bigger and stronger (for some reason I had gotten it into my head that their weights were similar from their draftexpress profiles which surprised me, on revisiting that I see that Bayless has Teague by almost 20 pounds). However, Teague still has a knack for getting to the rim which shows up in his FT attempts and also in these situational stats that draftexpress is touting right now. Tony Parker is about Teague's size and he's been very successful attacking the rim. I get the feel that Teague and Bayless have very similar styles, although I haven't watched either of them play very much.

I wouldn't mind getting him at 13, but I'm not sure he fits in with what Bird has said we need. He seems focused on a bigger PG (Jrue Holiday? ).

His point guard skills are horrible. I watched a few Wake Forest games this season, with the main purpose to watch Teague play. And not sure if you read this forum a lot around January/Feb but i was one of the people very high on Teague. But, too many games i saw and saw the same thing. He got the ball and without passing it to anyone, he shot it. Too many games went by with him only getting 1 or 2 assists. His vision is horrible. Players are open and he doesn't see them and does something else. And he shoots too much for my liking of a point guard. I even think he had a game with 0 assists. Like, come on. 0?

I agree with DGrangerX, if we do go the point guard route, i'd much prefer Ty Lawson. Or Stephen Curry or Jonny Flynn. Lawson or Flynn would be my top 2 PG though. (Keeping it realistic, Rubio won't be available)

xxSnEaKyPxx · Post #12 » by **xxSnEaKyPxx** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:58 pm

cdash wrote:He can go left, but never does? Even if it would make him that much harder to guard? I'm not buying that. I just don't think he will be that good. Best case scenario=Jameer Nelson.

No one in the college level could guard him when hes going right. Remember Jeremy Pargo? From everything I've heard he was suppose to be a very good defender, Ty Lawson just made him look silly. Hes already hard to guard, your making it sound like people could stop him - they couldn't. I mean, hes had off games like everyone, but no one has made him play bad.

cdash · Post #13 » by **cdash** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:22 pm

I'm trying to make it sound exactly the way it is. Opposing teams know he's going to go right every single time. They defend him as such, and it makes him less effective. If he went left once in awhile, it keeps them guessing and makes him tougher to defend. I have no doubt that he is explosive going to the right and insanely difficult to stop, but the point is that crap won't fly in the NBA. The defense is better, the players are bigger and more athletic, and I just think it will be hard on him. Especially if he can't learn to go left.

basketballwacko2 · Post #14 » by **basketballwacko2** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:22 pm

i don't know much about Teague, but I think we should trade up or down one or the other in this draft because where we are picking we're gonna get a guy and unless we get lucky we'll be paying him 13th pick money and he won't be any better than a guy we could get down at 22 or 23 or even lower.

I'd like to have Curry if I'm picking a gaurd, if we're going for a big Jordan Hill and Thabeet kinda stand out. I have a feeling there will be several teams picking above us who will want to move down. There was a trade on the trade board the other day from a Wizards fan wanting to dump salary and offering the 3 o 4 th pick as incentive to move down. I'd rather do something like move down and get 2 picks in the 20's and get some role players or get up to 4 and get Hill or Curry!

xxSnEaKyPxx · Post #15 » by **xxSnEaKyPxx** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:56 pm

cdash wrote:I'm trying to make it sound exactly the way it is. Opposing teams know he's going to go right every single time. They defend him as such, and it makes him less effective. If he went left once in awhile, it keeps them guessing and makes him tougher to defend. I have no doubt that he is explosive going to the right and insanely difficult to stop, but the point is that crap won't fly in the NBA. The defense is better, the players are bigger and more athletic, and I just think it will be hard on him. Especially if he can't learn to go left.

My point is, no drafting a guy because he isn't explosive going left is silly. Of all the skills in basketball, that has to be up there as one of the easiest things to improve on. Its not like he will never ever be explosive going left, he could pick that up over the summer, and in training camp. Its a easy skill to improve upon.

cdash · Post #16 » by **cdash** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:21 am

Exactly, so why hasn't he done it yet? And I'm not saying don't draft him because of that, I'm saying don't draft him because he won't be that good. Like I said, a best case scenario is Jameer Nelson, which isn't bad by any means.

Post #17 » by **Miller4ever** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:22 am

It's actually one of the more difficult skills to develop depending on how dominant your right hand is. Can he finish with his left hand? If he can, it'll be easier, because one big component of going the other direction is the threat of finishing with the far hand.

xxSnEaKyPxx · Post #18 » by **xxSnEaKyPxx** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:36 am

Miller4ever wrote:It's actually one of the more difficult skills to develop depending on how dominant your right hand is. Can he finish with his left hand? If he can, it'll be easier, because one big component of going the other direction is the threat of finishing with the far hand.

Yes, he can finish with both.

xxSnEaKyPxx · Post #19 » by **xxSnEaKyPxx** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:39 am

cdash wrote:Exactly, so why hasn't he done it yet? And I'm not saying don't draft him because of that, I'm saying don't draft him because he won't be that good. Like I said, a best case scenario is Jameer Nelson, which isn't bad by any means.

I think his best case scenario is what Jamaal Tinsley could have been, without the post game, but better at getting to the rim.

cdash · Post #20 » by **cdash** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:20 am

What does that even mean? What Tinsley could have been?