Ariza

[ALL HAIL]

I think we ALL agree he should get a three year deal ... he's got to prove himself over more than just this year.

The Lakers would have no problem paying him if he had REALLY proven himself to be a consistent contributor year in and year out.

We HAVE TO be leary of guys playing really well in contract years because of Walton and Vujacic (although I do think Ariza is better).

All that being said, I think Ariza should be given the exact same deal as Vujacic. Vujacic had an equally unbelievable year last year and deserved his short contract so that he could prove himself for his next deal. Although Vujacic has now shown us all he is not worth his contract, the Lakers are only responsible for him for another two years.

Again, I think/know Ariza is better than Vujacic but he simply hasn't proven himself enough for me to invest in him for 4 to 6 years at 6 million a clip. Give him 15 mill over three years and let him play for his next deal. When he shows that he can play like or better than Posey year in and year out than he deserves a larger and longer deal like the one Posey got.

Right now, we really don't know what he'll do next year because he has never played this well before in his career, whereas Posey has shown for a while what he will give to your team.

I definitely agree with Akiho. In a time of sharp liberalism the Lakers MUST be conservative.

Signing him to the same deal as Vujacic is fair for everyone.

[ahwi_quacoe]

Ariza is an above average on-ball defender. He has fast hands and can break up plays but can't seem to keep his guy in front of him. He couldn't even stay with Kyle Korver and you already know what Kyle Korver wants to do. I wouldn't pay Ariza over the MLE , Luke Wlaton wasn't worth the MLE neither was Radmanovic. And if you asked me would I take posey or Ariza , you've got to be kidding.......

Posey has a Championship ring from the Heat and the Celtics.... Posey hands down ...that is the kind of veteran that the Lakers need so they can stay focused and shut another teams best player down and let Kobe worry about the offensive end of the floor.

[Dr Aki]

non-core players are the "fat" and depending on how bad their contracts/importance to the team, there are several layers of fat you would want to shed first (vladrad and mihm being prime examples)

and ariza is still a role player, i wouldnt term him essential to the lakers success quite yet, important but not essential

and people keep mentioning luke's MLE deal, for a 6 yr deal, he started at 4mil with 420k raises per year and his final year is only 5.8mil. right on the very MLE starting year contract. if anything, hes right where he should be. for a 30mil/6yr deal compared to a 5 year MLE deal comes out to 32mil/5years.he wouldnt even be earning MLE money til 2012

luke is earning a bit too much, but its only about 1-2mil too much compared to 2.5-3.5mil if it was an actual MLE deal as in the case of vladrad

[ALL HAIL]

^Yeah but the problem is the long term investment with Walton. He is like an anchor on this roster when he doesn't deserve it.

Ariza is a role player but he is ESSENTIAL. I posted a thread months ago after Bynum went down that said Bynum Is Not Our Most Important Player Next to Kobe. In this thread I was explaining that Ariza is the most important piece to our championship next to Kobe.

I didn't say he was our second best player, but he is second most important. Gasol and Bynum our great but they can be replaced if they get hurt by Odom and we wouldn't really miss a beat.

If Ariza were to get injured (knock on wood), we have NOONE who can replace his defensive versatility. Shannon Brown could be a candidate but do we really want him guarding LeBron or Pierce.

I still agree with you that Ariza deserves 5 mill for three years until he consistently proves himself but I disagree with you on where you rate his importance to this squad.

Without Ariza we have no chance at a championship. Real talk!

[That Nicka]

and people keep mentioning luke's MLE deal, for a 6 yr deal, he started at 4mil with 420k raises per year and his final year is only 5.8mil. right on the very MLE starting year contract.

Except Luke signed that deal 2 years ago.. And MLE goes up every year.. At the time that he signed it, he only had 2 or 3 out of the 6 years under MLE

if anything, hes right where he should be. for a 30mil/6yr deal compared to a 5 year MLE deal comes out to 32mil/5years.he wouldnt even be earning MLE money til 2012

I dont think anyone is saying that Ariza should get a 5 or 6 year deal.. seems like everyone wants 3 or 4.........

luke is earning a bit too much, but its only about 1-2mil too much compared to 2.5-3.5mil if it was an actual MLE deal as in the case of vladrad

so.... Luke is earning a "bit too much" and only "1-2 mil too much" at 5-5.8 mil the next couple years.. but paying an easily BETTER player 6 mil a year is too much? well... by your logic he is worth 5 so if he makes 6 then it is only a "bit too much"........... and we have to trim the fat right? Luke has to be considered fat before Ariza right? Ariza is a starter better defender, better everything except passer... So by your logic we should sign Ariza to 6 mil and look to trim the fat by trading Luke

[kobeaki]

and ronny turiaf was a fan favourite too, he was worth 17M/4yr. not 25M/4yrs

as good as ariza has been, hes not shooting >40%, james posey is shooting 37% whereas ariza is shooting at 32%. thats less than one in every three shots

and if you ask anyone concerning ariza's defense, he is not a great man defender, hes a great help defender. hes got long arms, gets into passing lanes and tips some balls once or twice a game. you cant tell me you would feel confident leaving ariza alone on an island and expect him to hold his own against your average star wing in the dying seconds of a game. if not for 2 7-footers clogging our paint, none of you would think ariza is an above average defender

unless you too have been brainwashed by what sportscenter believes defense should all be getting all getting steals and highlight reel blocks.

trevor is 24, he will get better.

but he isnt worth the MLE or even 6mil per now, maybe once his new contract ends, hes 27yo and hes a much more experienced player. lets look at the options

id rather use my MLE on ron artest, not only do you get a better man defender, but artest can shoot AND create off the dribble as well. what about wally szczerbiak? he wont get the MLE, is ariza worth more than wally? hes as much a product of good team defense as ariza is and shoots at a great clip from 3. what about anthony parker? hes off contract too and hes earning 4.5M this year. these are comparable players and theyre not worth the MLE (cept artest)

a contract that went 4.2/5/5.8 is entirely reasonable. compare that to luke walton's contract that went 4.0/4.4/4.8/5.2/5.6/5.8 or sasha, who got a 4.6/5/5.4 deal. both guys all increased their production in their contract years, both guys were young and could still improve. both guys arent worth what their contracts say theyre worth.

noticing a trend here? even with a 5 mil per deal, im willing to bet some of us will be complaining about ariza's 8pts/4rbs/2asts/1.5stls stats and his 15M/3yr deal this time next year as well

i think trevor is a case where stats only tell half the story, dude is in a contract year, but he was ballin last year too, i feel he is the definition of the mle, based on metrics that cant/wont be visible in an abstract statistical way...

just like walton is a much better player than his numbers say. so too is ariza...

the problem, which i think akiho is burned by , is that we(mitch) felt that we had to overspend in order to keep kobe happy, and that a mle player, is worth 3 times that money if they play the role they are supposed to...

but to ask this question right now is way premature...if we fail to the chip this year...akiho's argument carries more weight...

but what if we do meet the cavs? what if ariza does a damn good job on mo williams or even lebronze?

would his value be worth the mle then? in pure fiscal sense, buss and anshutes will have made that money 5 times over by then...so...

lets wait until the season is wrapped before we seriously have this discussion...

[kobeaki]

5-6 Million a year for Ariza is enough. That's already a good salary increase for a player who's improving. I don't think he'll be like Luke or Sasha who had just been overpaid by Kupchak. He does a lot, unlike Sasha who just make threes and play D. Trevor is important for us, He plays D, Can penetrate inside, make threes, make hustle plays and he rebounds well.

ill never defend sasha...he is fredo to me...

but luke has value, its just the walton family curse...i am comfortable with waltons salary...

also what no one ever talks about, is our massive logjam at the 2/3 position....for a player like sasha, he really needs to start to be truly effective...i know i know, blasphemy....but there is a groove these guys need to have to be good....it really does take a special talent to come off the bench , ice cold, and be effective, especially on the offensive end...

so, anyway, what were we talking about?

[kobeaki]

[quote="Akiho"]

i dont underestimate ariza's defense. hes above average at it but hes only average in terms of man-defense and his gambling defense is what puts him in the above average category.

i know PP and ray did good jobs on kobe as well. im just saying posey would be just as effective if not more with bynum/pau backing him up in the paint. goodness, are you trying to compare an injured west and injured chandler to 2008 KG and perkins? we all know, if posey was in a laker uniform, we'd be proclaiming him THE premier lockdown defender in the league.


i think it is real easy to overrate or underrate a player in the nba based on what or how the team they play with performs... all the kelts from last year seemed like defensive juggernauts, so did the 04 pissheads, but only because 1-9 all bought into that philosophy...how is that pistons/boston core looking these days...

on the flip side, the lakers play **** defense, and that makes a good man defender like ariza seem worse...

lets imagine ariza playing for the kelts last year in place of posey...id bet money, defensively hed look like the best ever...

[Dr Aki]

Except Luke signed that deal 2 years ago.. And MLE goes up every year.. At the time that he signed it, he only had 2 or 3 out of the 6 years under MLE

im sure kupchak took into account MLE rises, luke was never going to earn MLE money til 2012. thats a pretty simple thing to take into account.

I dont think anyone is saying that Ariza should get a 5 or 6 year deal.. seems like everyone wants 3 or 4.........

so whats wrong with a 5 mil per deal for 3 years and he'll get to play for his next big contract?

so.... Luke is earning a "bit too much" and only "1-2 mil too much" at 5-5.8 mil the next couple years.. but paying an easily BETTER player 6 mil a year is too much? well... by your logic he is worth 5 so if he makes 6 then it is only a "bit too much"........... and we have to trim the fat right? Luke has to be considered fat before Ariza right? Ariza is a starter better defender, better everything except passer... So by your logic we should sign Ariza to 6 mil and look to trim the fat by trading Luke

so we're into paying "too much" for players, right...

im not sure where you inferred that we should sign ariza to a 6 mil per yr contract. if luke is worth anywhere from 3-4.8 mil per yr. and ariza is better than luke, it makes sense ariza should be earning 5 mil. 5 > 4.8 right?

5 mil is perfect, i wont go over that figure because hes worth 5 mil. 6mil is > MLE's starting year contract. in the end, a 6 mil per spread out over >4 yrs is actually worth less than a MLE contract over 4 yrs but, we're looking at a 3yr contract aren't we?

and yes, we have been actively shopping luke. didnt you get the memo concerning fat trimming? didnt trading vlad and mihm ring a bell? luke is our most albatross contract we have. of course we should be trading luke. we've been trying since the beginning of the season.

[That Nicka]

im not sure where you inferred that we should sign ariza to a 6 mil per yr contract. if luke is worth anywhere from 3-4.8 mil per yr. and ariza is better than luke, it makes sense ariza should be earning 5 mil. 5 > 4.8 right?

5 mil is perfect, i wont go over that figure because hes worth 5 mil. 6mil is > MLE's starting year contract. in the end, a 6 mil per spread out over >4 yrs is actually worth less than a MLE contract over 4 yrs but, we're looking at a 3yr contract aren't we?

I dunno what MLE starts at this year, but if he makes that his first year, with raises like Luke he probably makes 6 mil a year... And why do we keep comparing him to Luke when he is clearly better than Luke? offensively and defensively... He is not worth 6 mil to you... that doesnt mean others dont think that he's worth 6 mil.... for me... 3 years at: 5.5, 6, 6.5 or 5, 5.5, 6 would be fine... What you dont want is one of your competitors signing him for MLE because you shortballed him and then having that come back to bite you in the ass if he ends up of the Cavs, Celts, Spurs, Blazers etc.

and yes, we have been actively shopping luke. didnt you get the memo concerning fat trimming? didnt trading vlad and mihm ring a bell? luke is our most albatross contract we have. of course we should be trading luke. we've been trying since the beginning of the season.

Really Buss?.. tell me.. what kind of proposals has Luke been involved in? dude, lets get serious... no one is picking up that contract... Luke has glass ankles and his game wouldnt translate well into many systems

[That Nicka]

what if we do meet the cavs? what if ariza does a damn good job on mo williams or even lebronze?

would his value be worth the mle then? in pure fiscal sense, buss and anshutes will have made that money 5 times over by then...so...

lets wait until the season is wrapped before we seriously have this discussion...

this is a good point.. How he performs in the Finals (if we make it there) will have a lot to do with how much we offer him as well

[Jajwanda]

Except Luke signed that deal 2 years ago.. And MLE goes up every year.. At the time that he signed it, he only had 2 or 3 out of the 6 years under MLE

im sure kupchak took into account MLE rises, luke was never going to earn MLE money til 2012. thats a pretty simple thing to take into account.

I dont think anyone is saying that Ariza should get a 5 or 6 year deal.. seems like everyone wants 3 or 4.........

so whats wrong with a 5 mil per deal for 3 years and he'll get to play for his next big contract?

so.... Luke is earning a "bit too much" and only "1-2 mil too much" at 5-5.8 mil the next couple years.. but paying an easily BETTER player 6 mil a year is too much? well... by your logic he is worth 5 so if he makes 6 then it is only a "bit too much"........... and we have to trim the fat right? Luke has to be considered fat before Ariza right? Ariza is a starter better defender, better everything except passer... So by your logic we should sign Ariza to 6 mil and look to trim the fat by trading Luke

so we're into paying "too much" for players, right...

im not sure where you inferred that we should sign ariza to a 6 mil per yr contract. if luke is worth anywhere from 3-4.8 mil per yr. and ariza is better than luke, it makes sense ariza should be earning 5 mil. 5 > 4.8 right?

5 mil is perfect, i wont go over that figure because hes worth 5 mil. 6mil is > MLE's starting year contract. in the end, a 6 mil per spread out over >4 yrs is actually worth less than a MLE contract over 4 yrs but, we're looking at a 3yr contract aren't we?

and yes, we have been actively shopping luke. didnt you get the memo concerning fat trimming? didnt trading vlad and mihm ring a bell? luke is our most albatross contract we have. of course we should be trading luke. we've been trying since the beginning of the season.

It's going to be extremely difficult to it but there's always the chance they find a team stupid enough to take on Luke in just the right circumstances and with help. Could Orlando be interested as a fairly easy solution to getting Dwight Howard the ball inside. Heck we'll give them Farmar as well if they like.

[Dr Aki]

what if we do meet the cavs? what if ariza does a damn good job on mo williams or even lebronze?

would his value be worth the mle then? in pure fiscal sense, buss and anshutes will have made that money 5 times over by then...so...

lets wait until the season is wrapped before we seriously have this discussion...

this is a good point.. How he performs in the Finals (if we make it there) will have a lot to do with how much we offer him as well

then lets wait til the finals finish before again discussing how much hes worth