The Lowdown in Hogtown

[Mustard_Tiger]

By this logic, no coach should ever be fired based on their teams play on the field/court.

I think a coach's effect on sports is highly overrated, particularly in baseball. But then again, the "motivational" coaches are the ones who actually got the Raptors and Jays to play well, so who knows.

Sam had to go, he was a good coach in 2/4 seasons. Those 2/4 seasons, we just happened to have pretty deep and balanced teams. The guy had no philosophy or approach whatsoever, and is better suited as an assistant, in my mind.

Sam was the same coach in all of the 4 seasons, and as I said before, he'll get another head coaching job whenever he wants one based on his performance in Toronto (although people said the same thing about Cito Gaston, and look what happened to him).

[billy_hoyle]

And again, I can't believe people go on about this nonsense concerning Andrea Bargnani. Sam played the guy more than he should have, if anything. In fact, I kind of hated how he continued to use such an ineffective player in the place of guys that could actually contribute.

The credit for Andrea Bargnani's breakout goes entirely to Andrea Bargnani, just like I would say about Adam Lind or Aaron Hill or any of these other Jays players off to hot starts. They are the ones playing the game.

I agree that Smitch played Bargs too much. When offensively he had him camp out at the three point line (despite the league adjusting and forcing terribly rushed shots/decisions), and the teams entire defensive philosophy was to funnel to the "inside presence"(when Bargs clearly is a terrible help defender) as opposed to the Triano's funnel baseline D. These strategies most definatly didn't play to his strengths, the entire system seemed to increasingly be centred around Bosh - and I know you'd agree that's a bad idea.

Cito gets no credit for batting Hill 2nd and Lind 5th? Instilling Lind as the full-time DH. I'm sure there were different options with the vets on this team. This has no effect or minimal effect?

[evilRyu]

And again, I can't believe people go on about this nonsense concerning Andrea Bargnani. Sam played the guy more than he should have, if anything. In fact, I kind of hated how he continued to use such an ineffective player in the place of guys that could actually contribute.

The credit for Andrea Bargnani's breakout goes entirely to Andrea Bargnani, just like I would say about Adam Lind or Aaron Hill or any of these other Jays players off to hot starts. They are the ones playing the game.

Dude that's complete BS... While you might be 100%, you have no evidence whatsoever to back up your statement. Can you say that you know what happens behind the scenes? What about Gene Tenace providing them some tutelage? Yes of course credits goes to the players, but you need to acknowledge that they received some help along the way.

[Alfred]

How can you say that Sam Mitchell was a good coach by saying "The proof is in the pudding! Look at the W-L record!" and then turn around and say "Oh, we don't know if Sam or Jay had anything to do with holding Bargnani back or helping him out, it's all on the player".

Shouldn't the "proof be in the pudding" regarding Bargnani? Sucked under Mitchell, is quite good under Triano?

[Mustard_Tiger]

Dude that's complete BS... While you might be 100%, you have no evidence whatsoever to back up your statement. Can you say that you know what happens behind the scenes?

I could ask you the same question. That's why I use tangible evidence.

Shouldn't the "proof be in the pudding" regarding Bargnani? Sucked under Mitchell, is quite good under Triano?

You'd have a point if Triano did something differently with him than Sam did. Sam tried everything and nothing worked because Bargnani wasn't mentally tough enough at the time.

[Alfred]

Bargnani himself has credited Jay Triano with helping him elevate his game. Can you guess what he said were some of the most important factors? Consistancy in his playing time, and giving him a bigger role on offense; more pick and pops, more isolation plays at the top of the arc, giving him he ball at the elbows, lots of things. I'm surprised you think that Bargnani wasn't used differently under Triano.

[Mustard_Tiger]

Bargnani himself has credited Jay Triano with helping him elevate his game. Can you guess what he said were some of the most important factors? Consistancy in his playing time, and giving him a bigger role on offense; more pick and pops, more isolation plays at the top of the arc, giving him he ball at the elbows, lots of things. I'm surprised you think that Bargnani wasn't used differently under Triano.

Do you remember when some of the Jays gave credit to Gary Denbo early in the season last year for helping them? Players giving their coaches credit isn't relevant at all to this discussion, they always give them recognition, no matter who they are.

And yes, Bargnani was used more, but that's only because the Raptors weren't playing for anything at that point. Do you really think Sam should have moved away from what worked for 2 years (focusing the offense on Bosh and Jose) just to give Bargnani (a terrible player in his 2 years with the team) more touches?

[Alfred]

I really don't get it. Bargnani sucked under Sam Mitchell, then improved markedly under Jay Triano, then said that Jay Triano was one of the main reasons he improved his game, and you can't admit that Sam Mitchell might have been holding him back, or using him wrong? Like, what else could you possibly expect in terms of proof?

While complimenting Jay for the consistancy in his minutes improving his game, you've got to realize that he's criticizing Sam as well (for not doing that).

[Mustard_Tiger]

I really don't get it. Bargnani sucked under Sam Mitchell, then improved markedly under Jay Triano, then said that Jay Triano was one of the main reasons he improved his game, and you can't admit that Sam Mitchell might have been holding him back, or using him wrong? Like, what else could you possibly expect in terms of proof?

While complimenting Jay for the consistancy in his minutes improving his game, you've got to realize that he's criticizing Sam as well (for not doing that).

What Bargnani told the media about Jay Triano is irrelevant. It's just what players do. They don't bash their coaches when asked a question, they normally give them some form of credit. Bargs would have done the same for any coach that was with him during his breakout.

[Alfred]

Okay, who cares about Jay Triano. He said that he needed consistant minutes to become a better player, which he got under Jay Triano. That implies he wasn't getting consistant minutes under Sam Mitchell, i.e. Bargnani was saying that he wasn't being used correctly by Sam Mitchell. He also complained about this even when playing for Sam.

Do players always go out of their way to slight their former coaches?

[Mustard_Tiger]

Okay, who cares about Jay Triano. He said that he needed consistant minutes to become a better player, which he got under Jay Triano. That implies he wasn't getting consistant minutes under Sam Mitchell.

Do players always go out of their way to slight their former coaches?

Bargnani, a very bad player under Sam, averaged 24 minutes a game with him, to the detriment of the team.

What more did you want from Sam, exactly? He tried his best to give Andrea time and space, and Andrea failed at every opportunity.

Sometmes something just clicks with talented players, and I think that happened with Bargnani last year. And no, I don't think it had much of anything to do with the coaching he got.

[Alfred]

Basically, you're doing a very poor job of countering this argument:

How can you say that Sam Mitchell was a good coach by saying "The proof is in the pudding! Look at the W-L record!" and then turn around and say "Oh, we don't know if Sam or Jay had anything to do with holding Bargnani back or helping him out, it's all on the player".

Shouldn't the "proof be in the pudding" regarding Bargnani? Sucked under Mitchell, is quite good under Triano?

EDIT:

Sometmes something just clicks with talented teams, and I think that happened with the Raptors in 06/07. And no, I don't think it had much of anything to do with the coaching they got.

I edited this quote to illustrate what I'm saying.

[Mustard_Tiger]

Basically, you're doing a very poor job of countering this argument:

How can you say that Sam Mitchell was a good coach by saying "The proof is in the pudding! Look at the W-L record!" and then turn around and say "Oh, we don't know if Sam or Jay had anything to do with holding Bargnani back or helping him out, it's all on the player".

Shouldn't the "proof be in the pudding" regarding Bargnani? Sucked under Mitchell, is quite good under Triano?

EDIT:

Sometmes something just clicks with talented teams, and I think that happened with the Raptors in 06/07. And no, I don't think it had much of anything to do with the coaching they got.

I edited this quote to illustrate what I'm saying.

I've been awake for 23 hours straight now, you are going to have to explain what you mean. I really need to sleep. If it's what I think you are saying (that coaching doesn't have much of an effect on teams and players), then yes, I agree.

[Alfred]

I'm saying that Sam Mitchell was a bad coach who had a lucky season, and that the logic you're using to support him (W-L in that season) is being ignored when you excuse him for using Bargnani incorrectly.

[Mustard_Tiger]

I'm saying that Sam Mitchell was a bad coach who had a lucky season and that the logic you're using to support him (W-L in that season) is being ignored when you excuse him for using Bargnani incorrectly.

Again, though, Sam didn't use Bargnani incorrectly in the sense that you mean. To me, for a team that had playoff aspirations, he used Andrea way too much.

[Mustard_Tiger]

I do see what you're saying, though. But I would never say that Sam played a large role in that 06-07 team. They were basically a team with .500 level talent that got lucky due to the division they played in. My gripe is that Colangelo fired him when the team was actually playing .500 basketball (which is about their true talent level, IMO, when things are going well).

[J-Roc]

Proof Sam Mitchell wasn't a very good coach. How many teams in the league are clamouring for his services now?

How many threads are being opened by fans of other teams, wanting Sam Mitchell as their next coach?

[Alfred]

I'm saying that Sam Mitchell was a bad coach who had a lucky season and that the logic you're using to support him (W-L in that season) is being ignored when you excuse him for using Bargnani incorrectly.

Again, though, Sam didn't use Bargnani incorrectly in the sense that you mean. To me, for a team that had playoff aspirations, he used Andrea way too much.

Here's what Bargnani had to say about Sam Mitchell:

bagatta: first question for you---did you feel better with mitchell or triano?

bargnani: definitely better with triano...

bagatta: but...i mean, what was the issue with mitchell ? he's been also the coach of the year (the year before...), can you explain it?

bargnani: no, i mean, he (mitchell)'s got his own preferences like any other coach, he simply didn't like a few players on the roster ( he mentioned the "likeable factor...") ..

bagatta: and...were you one of them?

bargnani: yes, of course, but it's the most common thing in the world, as i don't like somebody the same could happen as you're the coach...i don't see anything wrong with that. So, no grudge, but i'm happy he isn't here anymore.

From this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=903302#p19434314

Bargnani is glad Sam is gone. And his great second half play coincided with Sam leaving.

Sam obviously handled Bargnani poorly. I think at this point, arguing otherwise is foolish.