Anthony "Magic" Randolph vs. Blake "GETACHA BOI" Griffin

[NO-KG-AI]

LOL at people that think Randolph gained 20 pounds

[gswhoops]

I'm fairly certain we disproved that Randolph gained 20 pounds in the season in another thread a month or two ago...

Lamar Odom is 230. Luis Scola is 230. Randolph is not 230.

http://www.daylife.com/photo/04tpccJ6uc ... y+randolph

Gaining 20 pounds would put him at 210-215, which is still significantly less then Odom's 230. That picture doesn't really prove anything.

[NetsForce]

I'm fairly certain we disproved that Randolph gained 20 pounds in the season in another thread a month or two ago...

Lamar Odom is 230. Luis Scola is 230. Randolph is not 230.

http://www.daylife.com/photo/04tpccJ6uc ... y+randolph

Gaining 20 pounds would put him at 210-215, which is still significantly less then Odom's 230. That picture doesn't really prove anything.

Okay 210 is a more reasonable number. Though NBA.com listed him at 205 pre-draft.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/players/72851

I like how he's listed at 220 there =D

[FNQ]

AR had reportedly gained 20 lbs over the course of the season after initially weighing in at 195, ...

Math skills for the loss fellas The W's officially weighed him at 197 before the season though, so between 215-220 is the average for now. Of course, it all means nothing up until August, when we see if he's maintained or even improved his weight... or lost it.

He gained a lot of noticable weight, and the way most W's fans could tell, was because BW remained the 'before' picture... BW came in weighing 205 and would be lucky to still hit that. AR came in like a stick figure and by seasons' end looked noticably thicker and was much more willing to take contact...

LOL at people that think Randolph gained 20 pounds

Valuable contribution... anyone who saw AR in the beginning of the season as compared to the end could easily spot it... but you have to love fans who obviously havent seen AR's game, period, who are commenting on his game and weight... is there no criteria here? All I have to do on the PC board is pick a player, look at their negatives and positives from draft capsules, and just assume based on how I feel that day?

[ponder276]

LOL at people that think Randolph gained 20 pounds

Indeed, he still looks STICK THIN. Also, players simply do not gain significant weight during the season, they're doing way too much cardio, not to mention the fact that a strict workout regime is hard to maintain when you're traveling so much.

I'm sick and tired of flawed players putting up numbers in GS, and everyone going nuts. ANYONE can put up numbers in GS, they play at a very fast pace, you're not expected to expend serious energy on d, and you're allowed to do ridiculous things in an almost entirely unstructured offense. Anthony Randolph is one of the skinniest, frailest players I've ever seen. Pretty much every time he goes to the hoop he ends up on his ass. I just cannot imagine a guy as skinny as Randolph becoming a star on a normal team, and I don't see him putting on a tonne of weight either, due to his super-skinny shoulders.

Give me Griffin EASILY. He's unlikely to become a superstar, but he should be a very good starting PF, one of the best rebounders in the league and a great P&R player. Randolph is IMO one of those players who's gonna be abused in the post on both ends of the court, a marginal starter or good bench player on a contending team. I like his handle, his length, and his athleticism, but I don't think it makes up for his frailty. The guy came into the league at 6'9" barefoot, but a ridiculously tiny 197 pounds - that's less than small guards like OJ Mayo and Jerryd Bayless . . .

AR had reportedly gained 20 lbs over the course of the season after initially weighing in at 195, and had no problem at all gaining and holding position against most PFs, most notably later on in the season. He never had a problem banging and was only held out for injury in one game. The others were DNP - Gimmick Coach...

Funny enough, his shoulders and chest are where you can see the most added muscle relative to when he first played in the summer league... I'm beginning to see why most aren't really AR fans - they are basing everything on 7 month old worst case draft reports

There is a reason he's exciting this fanbase... putting his April into context, his previous months he was doing just as well in limited time against more legitimate competition... you all need to put in the work and see what he does...

I saw many Warrior games throughout the season. I even caught some of Randolph's good games, such as his 20 point game against Utah. The guy gets THROWN AROUND, I can't believe you think he had "no problem at all gaining and holding position against most PFs, most notably later on in the season." In that Utah game it was absolutely ridiculous the number of times he ended up on his ass off of virtually no contact on this game.

The guy is skilled, long and athletic. It's possible he bulks up and becomes a good player, but I'm very wary of players with obvious flaws (such as his extremely frail frame) who do well in Golden State's weird, unstructured system. It's the same way I really didn't believe the hype with Brandan Wright or Marco Belinelli. I remember GS fans touting these guys as future stars at various points last season, and surprise surprise, nobody talks about them anymore. Stats on this team are almost meaningless. I am really supposed to believe that Stephen Jackson is a way better player than Paul Pierce, because he puts up better stats in GS? Am I supposed to believe that Anthony Morrow is a young Ray Allen? Or that Andris Biedrins is a comparable rebounder to Dwight Howard (13.4 R/36 for Biedrins, 13.9 R/36 for Howard)? The fact is that TONNES of bad players put up good stats on GS, and look good on the court, because they're allowed to do whatever they want, and have inflated stats due to playing at the fastest pace in the league. It's like how players like Patrick Mills and Carlos Arroyo look great when playing for Australia/Puerto Rico - when you play with garbage players, SOMEBODY has to step up, so you look like a star, but you're really nothing special on a good team.

[FNQ]

If you saw AR get thrown around, you were probably watching him at the 5... and even then, the exaggeration makes the argument even less persuasive, as AR was rarely knocked down... when he played the 4 and especially the 3, he did very well as far as holding position on the block... problem was, he doesnt have many go-to moves down low, so he needs to be much taller than the guy he's posting up to have any kind of advantage...

You use the usual anti-W's double standard, saying that stats are ballast but not giving the why... the why USED to be that we were a running team... the why now is that we were a team that shot the ball extremely early in the shot clock and that created a ton more posessions and opposing fast breaks.. comparing AR to BW and Belinelli is ridiculous and basically outs yourself as someone who hasn't seen much of AR, regardless if you saw one of his better performances of the year... BW and Belinelli never had the potential or fire that AR did... hell, if they even tried in the weight room like AR did, it would show...

As for the weight, its oh so entertaining to see people on message boards assume you can't add 20 lbs without changing their entire body type... since physical rehab and toning muscle for HS/college athletes is kinda my job ( ) , I'll let ya'll know that its extremely possible to do, and in AR's case, very likely. He was not in shape at all when coming to the W's - not only being stick thin, but not even w/much lean muscle. As the season went on, he grew thicker and started getting cut, especially in the arms and chest... The real challenge for him will be whether or not he can add onto that, as his frame is pretty thin and may not respond well to going past 220... but there is a vast difference between AR in preseason and AR now.

As for it being a rigorous season and its hard to add weight... I'm sure AR was putting all those DNPs to good use in November and December, because by January it was looking obvious that he put the work in.

[Wade2k6]

The guy is skilled, long and athletic. It's possible he bulks up and becomes a good player, but I'm very wary of players with obvious flaws (such as his extremely frail frame) who do well in Golden State's weird, unstructured system. It's the same way I really didn't believe the hype with Brandan Wright or Marco Belinelli. I remember GS fans touting these guys as future stars at various points last season, and surprise surprise, nobody talks about them anymore. Stats on this team are almost meaningless. I am really supposed to believe that Stephen Jackson is a way better player than Paul Pierce, because he puts up better stats in GS? Am I supposed to believe that Anthony Morrow is a young Ray Allen? Or that Andris Biedrins is a comparable rebounder to Dwight Howard (13.4 R/36 for Biedrins, 13.9 R/36 for Howard)? The fact is that TONNES of bad players put up good stats on GS, and look good on the court, because they're allowed to do whatever they want, and have inflated stats due to playing at the fastest pace in the league. It's like how players like Patrick Mills and Carlos Arroyo look great when playing for Australia/Puerto Rico - when you play with garbage players, SOMEBODY has to step up, so you look like a star, but you're really nothing special on a good team.

Great post. I don't think anyone is denying his talent, but it just gets old when the GS fans hype every prospect up as the next coming of MJ. It is way premature to say he has superstar potential because he has been putting up decent stats on a team 25-30 games under .500 and on a team that plays perfectly to his strengths. I personally think he should be the 3rd/4th best player on a championship team. I think he's going to be one of those players that does alot good but does little great. He seems like more of a very good role player that will make 1-2 or so all-stars games.

[FNQ]

I'm only posting on AR because even though Sid simplifies it, he's right and has a pretty good track record on evaluating prospects.

I'm not going to go into the GSW fans who pimped BW and Belinelli as the next big things - both had a lot of potential but never really showed any consistent flashes as far as actual talent goes... but it seems that everyone is writing off AR simply because other GS fans came here and shot their mouths off. In fact, it seems glaringly obvious that thats what a lot of posters are basing their analysis of AR on...

This team does not, at all, play to AR's strengths. Nelson put him @ C for long stretches of time for chrissake, as the only way to put him on the court. The only time AR was played to his strengths was in April, when used at the 3/4 consistently, and his performance was exceptional, despite the complete lack of ball movement thanks to other scrubs on GS' bench who people here actually like (Buke, Watson, etc)...

Also, how do good role players make 1-2 all-star games?

I get that most would take Griffin over AR... thats fine... I just dont get how many people are so conclusive about AR when its so obvious they havent watched him for any extended period of time...

[ponder276]

If you saw AR get thrown around, you were probably watching him at the 5... and even then, the exaggeration makes the argument even less persuasive, as AR was rarely knocked down

OK, found some highlights from the Utah game I was talking about. Keep in mind that these are just his highlights (when things were going RIGHT for him), and he is still ends up on the floor 3 times, 2 of those times off almost no contact:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgyybTWnyaY

This is one of his better games, near the end of the season (when he had apparently put on 20 lbs . . .), and while he does show some impressive stuff, he's also tossed around like a ragdoll on almost no contact. And I actually watched this game, he was physically abused regularly by Utah forwards on many instances that are obviously not shown in these highlights.

[FNQ]

Are you kidding? Twice he was in mid-air when he fell, once to avoid getting hit with a charge, and once where he drops to one knee... the other time he's wrestled to the ground, Boozer was fouling him.. (that footage is shown a lot on our board) 2 of the 3 times he fell, he was doing things that guards do and trying to avoid Jazz players while still getting a good look at the shot... had NOTHING to do with frailty at all.

High energy players go to the ground a lot... Turiaf spends time on the ground just as often. Is he weak as well?

I have no idea what that proves... it has nothing to do with teams taking advantage of him on offense and defense, which is what you said earlier... he puts the work in and gets good position in the post...

[Dr Positivity]

For the record, Randolph's numbers in his freshman year were as impressive as Blake's...

I'd still take Griffin here because I think he's a sure thing to at least be like a 15/9 type. I think AR definitely has the higher ceiling though.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Also, how do good role players make 1-2 all-star games?

Rashard Lewis has made 2 All-Star games in his career.

Would you consider Lewis an All-Star type player, or a very good role player?

[JocularMango]

The argument is pretty much

Randolph has a higher potential/upside ceiling than Griffin, but is less likely to achieve it.

Griffin has a lower potential/upside ceiling than Griffin, but is very likely to achieve it.

The question is what you would rather have? A high chance of a quality starter, or a low chance of getting a NBA superstar.

Randolph's flaws have already been highlighted in this thread, but I wanted to point out a few of what I think will ultimately hold Griffin back:
-How tall is he exactly? I've seen him listed at 6'10/6'11 but Beasley also had been listed at those kind of heights. The measurements come draft time are going to make a big difference. While Beasley is shorter, he does have a outside shot that lets him somewhat make for his lack of height, whereas Griffin's outside shot is still under question as he hadn't shot much over the season.
-Another big thing I saw, while Griffin is excellent at taking players off the dribble, his post up game could use some work. I've also found when he tries to keep the ball on the floor for more than one dribble, he isn't as effective.

[Wade2k6]

I don't understand how Randolph has a higher upside or potential though. What makes him a better prospect then Griffin?

And FireNellieQuick.... Would you consider Mo Williams a great role player? Rashard lewis? Turkalou? They certainly aren't stars, they're great role players that have made 1-2 all-star games.

[the_count]

I don't understand how Randolph has a higher upside or potential though. What makes him a better prospect then Griffin?

And FireNellieQuick.... Would you consider Mo Williams a great role player? Rashard lewis? Turkalou? They certainly aren't stars, they're great role players that have made 1-2 all-star games.

Quickness, handles, perimeter game rare for a player with his height and length to go along with intensity, good defensive anticipation, athleticism.

You just named probably the second best players on two of the four top teams in the league. Good roleplayers are guys like Anderson Varejao, Shane Battier, Luis Scola.

[richboy]

I have major questions about Griffin. Especially if his post game doesn't translate to the pros. You take that away his face up game isn't scary. Really I doubt he be much a post player.

Randolph is much more skilled. Even though he is think. You watch him play he handles himself despite his frame.

The thing that makes this very tough is Griffin showed nothing on defense in college. Randolph may turn out better defensively than Griffin. I think If I was GS I rather have Randolph than Griffin.

[FNQ]

I don't understand how Randolph has a higher upside or potential though. What makes him a better prospect then Griffin?

And FireNellieQuick.... Would you consider Mo Williams a great role player? Rashard lewis? Turkalou? They certainly aren't stars, they're great role players that have made 1-2 all-star games.

Quickness, handles, perimeter game rare for a player with his height and length to go along with intensity, good defensive anticipation, athleticism.

You just named probably the second best players on two of the four top teams in the league. Good roleplayers are guys like Anderson Varejao, Shane Battier, Luis Scola.

+1 on all of it... Its been explained, in depth, a few times... feel free to go back and see it. But to cliffnote it - handles, vision, versatility and defense. Blake will be more specialized, AR could be special. Thats what potential (and higher upside - same thing) is... but as said earlier, its a matter of potential vs. realization

[rsavaj]

Blake's the safer pick, but I think AR has more potential

[NO-KG-AI]

AR had reportedly gained 20 lbs over the course of the season after initially weighing in at 195, ...

Math skills for the loss fellas The W's officially weighed him at 197 before the season though, so between 215-220 is the average for now. Of course, it all means nothing up until August, when we see if he's maintained or even improved his weight... or lost it.

He gained a lot of noticable weight, and the way most W's fans could tell, was because BW remained the 'before' picture... BW came in weighing 205 and would be lucky to still hit that. AR came in like a stick figure and by seasons' end looked noticably thicker and was much more willing to take contact...

LOL at people that think Randolph gained 20 pounds

Valuable contribution... anyone who saw AR in the beginning of the season as compared to the end could easily spot it... but you have to love fans who obviously havent seen AR's game, period, who are commenting on his game and weight... is there no criteria here? All I have to do on the PC board is pick a player, look at their negatives and positives from draft capsules, and just assume based on how I feel that day?

I didn't even comment on him as a player, I'm just laughing at the people trying to convince themselves that this toothpick gained 20 pounds, yet we can't even see it really at all.

20 pounds would be extremely noticeable, hell, it's noticeable on LeBron and he was much much bigger.

[Roger Murdock]

I don't even think Randolph has a better skill set, just a more versatile and unique one.

I really even do like Randolph as a prospect, but hes so overrated its crazy. Hes going to be a big time play maker on defense, fast break, and hustle plays, I just don't think he can have a team built around him.