AJC: Should Hawks Trade Joe?

[HMFFL]

Almost every player on the Hawks’ roster is either at the end of a contract, or near the end of a contract, or on somebody’s, “Let’s drop-kick this guy out of town,” list.

Josh Smith doesn’t have a contract issue. That tells you what category he fits in.

But if you really believe the Hawks need to shake things up this off-season and possibly trade one of their starters, don’t look at Josh Smith. Look at Joe Johnson.

People, this isn’t even close.

This week’s Countdown . . .

10: Ordinary Joe: 2-for-18 in playoffs

Joe Johnson is a three-time All-Star. I felt I needed to get that out there right away because it seems like any time somebody criticizes Joe Johnson, one of his defenders screams, “He’s a three-time All-Star!” But this is business and these are the facts: Joe has one year left on his contract. He just completed an awful post-season, during which he played one good game and 10 generally crummy ones. In last year’s playoffs, he went 1-for-7 against Boston. This is not what you want from a guy who’s supposed to be your best player, especially when the game’s matter most. It’s certainly not what you want from a player who should be your leader but seldom acts like one. Or acts like he wants to be one. Joe’s one of those quiet guys who just wants to do his thing, whatever his thing is. But that’s not good enough here.

9. Sund has some difficult decisions

General manager Rick Sund just completed his first season. I’m not suggesting that his first makeover would be a failure if he doesn’t trade Joe Johnson. But it’s something he should look at. Just tweaking this roster may not be enough to get this team to the next level. With Johnson turning 28, chances are we’ve seen the best he has to offer. His skill set would be valuable on the trade market to elite teams that are looking for a complimentary player to round out their roster. He potentially could fetch a lot in trade. It’s worth exploring. Here’s why:

8. Team’s core is smaller than you think

I hear a lot about the Hawks’ having a great core of players. Don’t know about that. But if that’s true, here’s how I would list the guys to build around: 1) Al Horford (absolute); 2) Josh Smith (probably); 3) Marvin Williams (maybe). Johnson is not a core piece. Chances are, he’s out the door next year. Mike Bibby might be gone already. Yes, Smith is maddening. But he remains by far the most talented player on the roster with the most upside. The Hawks’ greatest nightmare would be dealing him and then seeing him turn into a human wrecking machine with another team and under another coach. He scored 26 points in Game 4 against Cleveland. He certainly outplayed and outscored Johnson in these playoffs. You don’t trade Josh Smith. He’s a difference maker. Even if sometimes the difference is for the other team. Link

[tontoz]

I hear a lot about the Hawks’ having a great core of players. Don’t know about that. But if that’s true, here’s how I would list the guys to build around: 1) Al Horford (absolute); 2) Josh Smith (probably); 3) Marvin Williams (maybe). Johnson is not a core piece.

So Horford is an absolute core piece but JJ isn't?

[conleyorbust]

Well Jeff Schmutz is an idiot but the question he brings up is something mrh has been talking about for a minute now. Do we feel comfortable extending Joe if it costs us max? On the other hand, what can we get for him?

[dannyc84]

they don't know what they're talking about lol.

[JoshB914]

Almost every player on the Hawks’ roster is either at the end of a contract, or near the end of a contract, or on somebody’s, “Let’s drop-kick this guy out of town,” list.

Josh Smith doesn’t have a contract issue. That tells you what category he fits in.

But if you really believe the Hawks need to shake things up this off-season and possibly trade one of their starters, don’t look at Josh Smith. Look at Joe Johnson.

People, this isn’t even close.

This week’s Countdown . . .

10: Ordinary Joe: 2-for-18 in playoffs

Joe Johnson is a three-time All-Star. I felt I needed to get that out there right away because it seems like any time somebody criticizes Joe Johnson, one of his defenders screams, “He’s a three-time All-Star!” But this is business and these are the facts: Joe has one year left on his contract. He just completed an awful post-season, during which he played one good game and 10 generally crummy ones. In last year’s playoffs, he went 1-for-7 against Boston. This is not what you want from a guy who’s supposed to be your best player, especially when the game’s matter most. It’s certainly not what you want from a player who should be your leader but seldom acts like one. Or acts like he wants to be one. Joe’s one of those quiet guys who just wants to do his thing, whatever his thing is. But that’s not good enough here.

9. Sund has some difficult decisions

General manager Rick Sund just completed his first season. I’m not suggesting that his first makeover would be a failure if he doesn’t trade Joe Johnson. But it’s something he should look at. Just tweaking this roster may not be enough to get this team to the next level. With Johnson turning 28, chances are we’ve seen the best he has to offer. His skill set would be valuable on the trade market to elite teams that are looking for a complimentary player to round out their roster. He potentially could fetch a lot in trade. It’s worth exploring. Here’s why:

8. Team’s core is smaller than you think

I hear a lot about the Hawks’ having a great core of players. Don’t know about that. But if that’s true, here’s how I would list the guys to build around: 1) Al Horford (absolute); 2) Josh Smith (probably); 3) Marvin Williams (maybe). Johnson is not a core piece. Chances are, he’s out the door next year. Mike Bibby might be gone already. Yes, Smith is maddening. But he remains by far the most talented player on the roster with the most upside. The Hawks’ greatest nightmare would be dealing him and then seeing him turn into a human wrecking machine with another team and under another coach. He scored 26 points in Game 4 against Cleveland. He certainly outplayed and outscored Johnson in these playoffs. You don’t trade Josh Smith. He’s a difference maker. Even if sometimes the difference is for the other team. Link

That is the biggest problem with Joe. He has not even tried to lead a team full of younger players, instead choosing to do his thing and not taking on that extra responsibility. I still feel that has hurt the development of our team massively.

I think we should at least look into trading Joe. These playoffs pretty much confirmed that he is not going to be the guy that can lead us to a title, he just doesn't have it in him to be the guy for an entire postseason run. If we can find a way to deal him and get someone that can step into that role whether it be by getting a great young prospect or a current star then I think we need to pull the trigger.

[TXSun]

so you get swept and now all these JJ trade talks arise? Don't trade him, your team is only gonna get better in the years to come. Keep the core players, that's for sure.

[JoshB914]

so you get swept and now all these JJ trade talks arise? Don't trade him, your team is only gonna get better in the years to come. Keep the core players, that's for sure.

They aren't coming up "just now." A lot of us don't think JJ is the guy and have thought that for some time. If we want to win a championship then we need to add another guy to take pressure off of him or deal him for someone that can play the role that he hasn't been able to fill.

[killbuckner]

COB is asking the exact right question. Lets say that the only way to retain joe past next season is to max him out. Thats a 6 year contract worth 123 million dollars. There are so many teams with caproom in 2010 I do think that someone will offer him the max. BUt the max from another team would be smaller. That woudl be approximately a 5 year 92 million dollar contract. Lets go ahead and say that Joe would stay in Atlanta if the money were equal (though that may not be the case.)

If the contracts were 16, 17.3, 18.6, 19.9, 21.2 would you want Joe to be resigned?

[L&H_05]

so you get swept and now all these JJ trade talks arise? Don't trade him, your team is only gonna get better in the years to come. Keep the core players, that's for sure.

They aren't coming up "just now." A lot of us don't think JJ is the guy and have thought that for some time. If we want to win a championship then we need to add another guy to take pressure off of him or deal him for someone that can play the role that he hasn't been able to fill.

Well, I think it will be difficult for the Hawks to deal him for another star that would fill that void... That wouldn't make sense for the team trading for him..So that would leave trading him for young assets or picks and expirings...

Hawks need to decide whether or not this is good enough to get it done and whether or not if they added another all star or fringe all star caliber player, would that be enough to put them in a position to compete for the conference, and ultimately a championship ??

The Hawks have some nice pieces, but I do question whether or not a guy like Josh Smith is a conerstone caliber player for a team looking to take the next level ?? His BBALLIQ appears to be limited and doesn't match the supreme athleticism that he possesses..

Just from the outside looking in, if I was a Hawks fan, I would want to keep JJ, Horford and ZaZa (as every good team can use a guy like him on their squad)-- outside of those 3 guys, everyone else should be fair game to trade, and can have their spots upgraded... Don't get me wrong, I don't see a player like ZaZa being a starting caliber center, so you need to upgrade that C position as well, but those are just the 3 guys that I would keep as locks, and look to improve around them...

[TXSun]

so you get swept and now all these JJ trade talks arise? Don't trade him, your team is only gonna get better in the years to come. Keep the core players, that's for sure.

They aren't coming up "just now." A lot of us don't think JJ is the guy and have thought that for some time. If we want to win a championship then we need to add another guy to take pressure off of him or deal him for someone that can play the role that he hasn't been able to fill.

sounds like you guys are throwing your only all-star under the bus. is he really that unreliable? I know you guys got swept but really CLE is able to sweep any team at this point. They will be Champions. LeBron had to wait 7 years to get a team playing at this level. You guys are almost there. Now you guys have another 1st or 2nd round exit, then I understand.

[JoshB914]

I wouldn't say we're throwing him under the bus. I just feel that looking ahead, if we ever want to win a championship (and that should ALWAYS be the ultimate goal), we will need someone else to have the ball in their hands down the stretch.

Joe is a good player, a very good one, and we all know that. But is he a guy that can lead a team to a title? I highly doubt it. I look at Joe and I see a guy that can play, but I don't see someone willing to take the extra pressure of being a true superstar and leading our team to new heights. The article in the original post put it perfectly; Not only has Joe not been a leader, he has not shown the slightest willingness to step into that role either, which is what bothers me most, as that was what we expected of him when we brought him here.

I have been on Joe really for a couple of years for this. He's supposed to be our bona fide no. 1 option and franchise player, and he hasn't done that. But more importantly, he hasn't even tried to leave his comfort zone and provide those services that this team needs so badly.

[pja123]

How bout Arenas/Young for Johnson/Law???

Arenas isn't afraid to take the big shot and Young would be a decent replacement for JJ at the 2G position. For the Wizards, I think JJ would mesh well with Jamison and Butler, plus he'd get along with Saunders. They could then take Rubio with their pick (if they land a top-2 selection).

Just an idea.

[killbuckner]

I wouldn't give up expiring contracts for Arenas right now. No one has any idea what kind of player he will be when (and if) he comes back healthy. For my money he is easily the worst contract in the league right now.

[evildallas]

Arenas? Uh, no. I side with killbuckner, he's on the list of absurdly bad contracts.

On the original story, I don't necessarily advocate trading Joe, but I've brought this issue up earlier in the year. If you don't sign Joe to an extension this summer there is a good chance of losing him next summer. So many teams have positioned their cap room for 2010 that if they don't land a Lebron (looking less likely to move) or Wade (never looked that likely) that they'll turn to other possibilities to spend their money on. After Bosh, Joe Johnson looks to be next on the shopping list which means he likely get the max. The Hawks need to make a decision based on that likelihood. Either you pay him and build with him as a cornerstone or you trade him before you lose leverage. You could wait and do a S&T, but that's a risky option as well. Or if you think his value will diminish making him less expensive in 2010, wouldn't you better off trading him before it drops?

3 questions to consider:
Does the sheer volume of minutes leave him worn down and affect his post-season performance?
Has the accumulated minutes his put in under Woodson leave him with not enough left in the tank to be a good long term investment?
Should we be careful to not overreact to the rough performance against the Cavs because of the defense pressure of Lebron, whom Joe couldn't drive by and was more physical than Joe?

[conleyorbust]

Sund and the gang should take a week to decompress and then sit down and determine the max they'd pay Joe even if it meant him walking after next season. Work their asses off to get him to sign that this offseason and if he doesn't accept that within a couple of weeks, run down a list of guys who you'd a) love to get for Joe and some fillers down to z) guys (or an expiring + picks) that you would take for Joe in a worst case scenario.

As I've said in other threads, the problem isn't that Joe doesn't try hard enough. It isn't that he doesn't play the game right. It isn't even that he isn't a "good enough leader" or something. The problem is that he just isn't good enough of a basketball player to handle the responsibility we thrust upon him in the playoffs and expect us to have success against elite defenses.

[LL Cool Scott]

Here are the facts:
1. Joe is going to demand a max contract or leave next offseason
2. Joe has had 2 good games and SIXTEEN bad games the past two playoff runs
3. Joe has the most trade value on the team
4. Joe has proven time and time again that he isn't a leader and that he will lay down and quit once the going gets rough
5. Given all the minutes Joe has played the past few years and given his age - it's safe to say that his best days are behind him
6. This group of players has no chance at ever surpassing Dwight's Magic or Lebron's Cavs in the playoffs

WHY NOT see what we can get for Joe?

[HMFFL]

Gilbert Arenas would handicap this team for years with his contract. A more realistic player to add would be Richard Hamilton. I would also look at moving Joe and a first round pick to the Clippers for Eric Gordon, Chris Kaman and a second round pick.

[evildallas]

Gilbert Arenas would handicap this team for years with his contract. A more realistic player to add would be Richard Hamilton. I would also look at moving Joe and a first round pick to the Clippers for Eric Gordon, Chris Kaman and a second round pick.

That's an interesting trade thought. I'd start to negotiate without the picks at first, but it is intriguing.

[conleyorbust]

HMFFL, I wouldn't do Rip... he's as much if not more on the downside of his career as Joe and more limited to boot. Gordon would great, I'm not sure the Clippers do that frankly, although I get the impression they'd love to get out of Kaman's contract. If we did make that trade though, we would have to run the offense through our point guard (Bibby or someone else) and Josh.

LL, do we know Joe will demand max? Don't get me wrong, he very well could, on the other hand, his value is depressed and at 28 it seems like teams know what they would be getting for Joe Johnson.

[LL Cool Scott]

LL, do we know Joe will demand max? Don't get me wrong, he very well could, on the other hand, his value is depressed and at 28 it seems like teams know what they would be getting for Joe Johnson.

He'll want something close to it. And I have a feeling he'll sign somewhere else. This offseason (or next season before the deadline) might be our only chance to get something for him. We need a true star to compete with Dwight and Lebron, and Joe is our most attractive trade piece right now.