Countdown to heartbreak (*Draft thread pt.II)

horaceworthy · Post #281 » by **horaceworthy** » Fri May 15, 2009 5:49 pm

Or we could not let the presences of Foye, Miller and Brewer dictate who we draft.

john2jer · Post #282 » by **john2jer** » Fri May 15, 2009 5:54 pm

But we also have two half-court plodders as our best two players, and Jennings is a runner. Jennings throws alleys, we got no one who can freak the oop.

Overall our team is undersized, including a pairing of Jefferson and Love, so to compensate we should be looking to add size in the backcourt.

Jefferson and Love might be average man defenders, but neither are good help defenders, and neither can make up for bad perimeter defense.

So when Jennings let's guys blow by him because he's taking stupid risks, or more concerned about his stats on the other end, who's going to cover for him?

It's not just Foye, Brewer, and Miller, it's the whole stinkin team that doesn't fit with Jennings.

4ho5ive · Post #283 » by **4ho5ive** » Fri May 15, 2009 5:59 pm

john2jer wrote:Jennings would fit in perfect with the Wolves because his weaknesses are the same ones we already have.

Sign me up for more crappy perimeter defense, piss-poor outside shooting, midget backcourts, and let's throw more interest for SportsCenter than substance while we're at it.

Although myabe he would actually get us on SportsCenter in our own highlights when we actually do win. That could be a plus.

Ok, really?

revprodeji wrote:At worse, if Jennings could step in and back-up Bassy for a year while he learns then we have replaced a cancer last year which was the pg position anytime bassy was not playing. Then Jennings can learn and get the job over Bassy.

We spend our lottery pick on a back-up for Telfair? If that's the case, I quit. What in the world would he learn from Bassy? I'd hope anything he could learn from Bassy he'd already know. If not he doesn't deserve to be our pick.

Flawless Victory!!!

deeney0 · Post #284 » by **deeney0** » Fri May 15, 2009 6:00 pm

john2jer wrote:It's not just Foye, Brewer, and Miller, it's the whole stinkin team that doesn't fit with Jennings.

Exactly, the whole team stinks. Not exactly a time to be worrying about fit. I just want the Wolves to take the most talented guard, and I think Jennings is still in the running for that.

Zeitgeister · Post #285 » by **Zeitgeister** » Fri May 15, 2009 6:04 pm

john2jer wrote:I don't think Jennings will be bad, I just think he wouldn't fit with the Wolves. Here's my list...

1. Griffin
2. Rubio

3. Evans
4. DeRozan
5. Thabeet

6. Harden

7. Jennings
8. Clark

I hope Hill goes before us opening up at least one more option.

The more I read about Tyreke Evans, the more I fall in love with him. The next Dwayne Wade, but a little bigger. Plus he has the hardworker bloodline.

They said Randy Foye was the next Dwyane Wade too.

Post #286 » by **revprodeji** » Fri May 15, 2009 6:05 pm

john2jer wrote:
We spend our lottery pick on a back-up for Telfair? If that's the case, I quit. What in the world would he learn from Bassy? I'd hope anything he could learn from Bassy he'd already know. If not he doesn't deserve to be our pick.

It is not about learning from Bassy as much as learning the NBA ropes in general. giving him a transition rather than making him the savior. I think most rookies would do better if gradually introduced.

The claim is that europe improved his defensive focus, it improved his maturity as well. If that is true then he should be considered. if it is not true then he is off the board.

horaceworthy · Post #287 » by **horaceworthy** » Fri May 15, 2009 6:08 pm

Knocking a point guards defense these days is a bit of a cop out. There's only a handful of decent defenders at the position, everyone else struggles to defend the position due to the NBA's hand-off policy on the perimeter. Same with the plodding big man argument, as big men don't often play a role i finishing on the break.

Adding size at PG does nothing to compensate for a lack of size in the frontcourt, since one doesn't look to point guards for near the rim intimidation. Adding size at SF would be the thing to compensate for that, along with adding a 3rd big that can protect the rim.

All your assertions assume that Jennings won't become a better player and that we should forever condemn ourselves to being an undersized team with no athleticism. Drafting guys to fit around a group of players that has yet to come close to winning 30 games is a strategy doomed to fail.

Zeitgeister · Post #288 » by **Zeitgeister** » Fri May 15, 2009 6:16 pm

Holy crap has one draft express article completely swung the pendulum of this board. I don't think hardly anyone on this board wanted Jennings a couple days ago, but now...

He's a player that I tend to forget about when ranking prospects, for whatever reason. If he measures out at 6'1" he's not really undersized. He has some great physical tools to be very effective, his outside shooting is a concern, his defense is a concern, and i'm not sure how well he will do in a half court offense. I do like the kid though, and I wouldn't be upset if we took him with say the 5th or 6th pick, but he's probably not ideal in that spot for me.

I do like Horaceworthy's post that we shouldn't try to draft for fit around a below 30 win team. It's accurate, but I also think it needs to be qualified that you should be drafting for fit around the players who you think are franchise corner stones. Al Jefferson is obviously one of them, and probably the only one. Love is pretty close I guess, but he's not quite there yet.

Post #289 » by **revprodeji** » Fri May 15, 2009 6:23 pm

I have not completely swung different on jennings. My concerns are defensive desire and maturity. If he has really grown in those then he is on the board. If not, then he is off. I still have a concern with taking him when we could move up from the Miami spot and take Holiday or Curry/lawson

john2jer · Post #290 » by **john2jer** » Fri May 15, 2009 6:37 pm

deeney0 wrote:
john2jer wrote:It's not just Foye, Brewer, and Miller, it's the whole stinkin team that doesn't fit with Jennings.

Exactly, the whole team stinks. Not exactly a time to be worrying about fit. I just want the Wolves to take the most talented guard, and I think Jennings is still in the running for that.

The whole team doesn't stink, we have Jefferson and Love, who are worth building around. Jennings doesn't fit with them.

Zeitgeister wrote:They said Randy Foye was the next Dwyane Wade too.

Not sure who "they" are, but I was SCREAMING for Brandon Roy back then and said that Foye would basically be a decent 3rd option. I never thought he was Dwayne Wade. Tyreke Evans is the real deal.

What we should do every year is just try to grab as much talent as we possibly can without any regard to fit, chemistry, or position so we can some day become the New York Knicks or LA Clippers.

Look, I'm not saying he'll turn out to be a bad player, just a bad fit for the Wolves and we won't be successful with him.

It's that kind of thinking that resulted in our best two players being power forwards. Now I like those two power forwards, so I think we should be targeting players that compliment them to form a team, not just a collection of talent. That's where I see Tyreke Evans coming in. A dynamic guard that can attack the basket and is big enough to see over defenders to kick it out to shooters, and strong enough to finish in traffic. His athleticism and size mixed in with the NBA rules means he'll live at the free throw line.

I just don't get the logic of, "only a few pg's can play defense cause of the rules", so let's just say screw it and draft the guy who doesn't even try?

Post #291 » by **Worm Guts** » Fri May 15, 2009 6:47 pm

john2jer wrote:But we also have two half-court plodders as our best two players, and Jennings is a runner. Jennings throws alleys, we got no one who can freak the oop.

To throw alleys, you have find open cutters moving towards the basket. I think throwing alleys is a skill that translates to passing in general.

Post #292 » by **C.lupus** » Fri May 15, 2009 6:55 pm

john2jer wrote:Jennings throws alleys, we got no one who can freak the oop.

Oh they'll find the freakin oops in the draft. Don't you worry about that.

john2jer · Post #293 » by **john2jer** » Fri May 15, 2009 7:21 pm

Worm Guts wrote:
john2jer wrote:But we also have two half-court plodders as our best two players, and Jennings is a runner. Jennings throws alleys, we got no one who can freak the oop.

To throw alleys, you have find open cutters towards the basket. I think throwing alleys is a skill that translates to passing in general.

And the sky is blue, strawberries are nummy, and Charles Manson was a bad guy. What's your point?

I never said the guy couldn't pass, he just prefers the highlight real pass when the fundamental pass would do. This leads to unforced turn-overs, frustrated teammates, and more losing. Which means we'd have a shot at John Wall, so maybe it's not all bad? *shrug*

And who are these open cutters we have on our team?

Post #294 » by **Worm Guts** » Fri May 15, 2009 7:30 pm

john2jer wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:
john2jer wrote:But we also have two half-court plodders as our best two players, and Jennings is a runner. Jennings throws alleys, we got no one who can freak the oop.

To throw alleys, you have find open cutters towards the basket. I think throwing alleys is a skill that translates to passing in general.

And the sky is blue, strawberries are nummy, and Charles Manson was a bad guy. What's your point?

?

The point is, it seems like your criticizing him for being a good passer. Being able to set up teammates for easy shots is not a flaw, and it fits any team. If he's turnover prone because he attempts to throw flashy passes, fine, but that's not what I got from you're first post.

PeeDee · Post #295 » by **PeeDee** » Fri May 15, 2009 7:42 pm

What does Jennings have that Telfair doesn't? A spazzy looking dunk? Any NBA player is going smash that crap outta here with a hard foul causing him to never try it again. If we get another small guard that can't defend or shoot or take it to the rim and finsh/get to the foul line I'm apt to lose what faith I have left in this org.

While this team needs a good PG, they need perimeter defense first and foremost. And that's a fact. Holy crap, I just made a basketball related post. Felt good.

john2jer · Post #296 » by **john2jer** » Fri May 15, 2009 7:43 pm

Then maybe you need to read the whole thing because "he's turnover prone because he attempts to throw flashy passes" is exactly what I've been saying here, and what I've always said about him.

When I'm hearing from scouts that he's checking assist totals during a game, that he makes an assist selfish, and that he won't pass the ball unless he can get an assist off it, that scares me.

The small section of my point that you decided to take out talks about the style of game he plays which doesn't fit with the Wolves. I also went further into the flaws he has and how I think those flaws happen to be the flaws the Wolves already have, thus compounding an issue that needs to be addressed.

john2jer · Post #297 » by **john2jer** » Fri May 15, 2009 7:46 pm

It's funny how everyone talks about Kirk Hinrich being the ideal point guard for this team(minus his contract of course), yet people here are in love with the anti-Hinrich, Jennings.

horaceworthy · Post #298 » by **horaceworthy** » Fri May 15, 2009 7:52 pm

Zeitgeister wrote:Holy crap has one draft express article completely swung the pendulum of this board. I don't think hardly anyone on this board wanted Jennings a couple days ago, but now...

He's a player that I tend to forget about when ranking prospects, for whatever reason. If he measures out at 6'1" he's not really undersized. He has some great physical tools to be very effective, his outside shooting is a concern, his defense is a concern, and i'm not sure how well he will do in a half court offense. I do like the kid though, and I wouldn't be upset if we took him with say the 5th or 6th pick, but he's probably not ideal in that spot for me.

I do like Horaceworthy's post that we shouldn't try to draft for fit around a below 30 win team. It's accurate, but I also think it needs to be qualified that you should be drafting for fit around the players who you think are franchise corner stones. Al Jefferson is obviously one of them, and probably the only one. Love is pretty close I guess, but he's not quite there yet.

I've been pro Jennings for awhile. Well, not exactly pro Jennings as much as not overly impressed by the NCAA guard prospects (I don't dislike them, I'm just not blown away) so I'm willing to take a gamble on someone that's a relative mystery to me. I wouldn't call him the ideal, just one of 6-8 guys I wouldn't mind us taking with our lotto pick.

horaceworthy · Post #299 » by **horaceworthy** » Fri May 15, 2009 8:00 pm

john2jer wrote:It's funny how everyone talks about Kirk Hinrich being the ideal point guard for this team(minus his contract of course), yet people here are in love with the anti-Hinrich, Jennings.

I don't see anyone in love with Jennings, just people not as quick to write him off as you are. I've been pretty steadfast in my dislike of Hinrich. He'd be a great 3rd guard for this team (or as PG next to a Roy or Wade type SG), but for a PG I'd like to see a guy that can get into the lane and make it so Al doesn't have to perform "Swan Lake" in order to get a good look at the rim.

john2jer · Post #300 » by **john2jer** » Fri May 15, 2009 8:21 pm

I'm not writing Jennings off. He might be successful for a different team in a different system. Just not with the Wolves. There's a point where Position of Need and Best Player Available cross. Example: Griffin obviously isn't a Position of Need, but he's so much far and above the Best Player Available that it would be stupid not to take him. I don't think Jennings fits that mold in comparison to the players around him.