Another max player on the celtics?

[tombattor]

You can turn that argument right around and say that it is a lot easier to get by your defender and drive to the basket when the defense is in your face too, though. If defenders are playing Rondo close on the perimeter, he is going to have a field day getting to the basket. So it probably evens out.

You could, if the defender is playing off of him to compensate for his quickness, as they do when he has the ball. But they are not even really checking Rondo, when he doesn't have the ball. Instead, they use his man to double someone else.

[wigglestrue]

If that's the case, then taking the ball out of his hands to dump it to Pierce for iso after iso is...?

[celticfan42487]

the only way to win because

Pierce is the only player that we have that can score, drive to the hoop, and we're blessed with him being selfless enough to pass it to the open man if he's doubled [see Baby, Big]. To be a go-to guy you have to have all the tools or you're just another Michael Redd.

If Rondo was good enough to score on isos [aka make a shot] then we'd have Rondo be the star of the team because he is a much faster player, better playmaker, better ballhandler, and equal offensive flopper.

[celticfan42487]

So, 10 is about right, but...12 is too much?

There is always a premium on signing. 12 is too much and will hurt the franchise long term. But right now Pierce's contract is too much and hurting the franchise long term. 2 mill swing is an acceptable job by the GM.

Anything over 13.5 million is a failure.

[TA42]

You guys are all crazy. Rondo will indeed get paid the max or near-max based purely on the speculation that he could be an elite PG in this league. He shows enough flashes of brilliance to tantalize everyone.

His main weakness right now is his jump shot. His decision making will improve with time and as he gets more respect from the refs his defense will improve as he won't get called on as many ticky-tac fouls.

He will be at the top or near the top in assists and steals year round with a solid offensive game built mostly on his quickness. Add in his rebounding and that my friends is a near max point guard.

EDIT: If he manages to develop even a semi-respectable jumpshot this whole conversation is moot.

[floyd]

Nobody is giving a point guard that can't shoot freakin' free throws a max deal. It's that simple.

If next season he shoots 75% from the line and picks up the Reggie Lewis pull-up from the elbow then we'll talk.

[jfs1000d]

You guys are all crazy. Rondo will indeed get paid the max or near-max based purely on the speculation that he could be an elite PG in this league. He shows enough flashes of brilliance to tantalize everyone.

His main weakness right now is his jump shot. His decision making will improve with time and as he gets more respect from the refs his defense will improve as he won't get called on as many ticky-tac fouls.

He will be at the top or near the top in assists and steals year round with a solid offensive game built mostly on his quickness. Add in his rebounding and that my friends is a near max point guard.

EDIT: If he manages to develop even a semi-respectable jumpshot this whole conversation is moot.

Going to be anti-rondo on two threads now.

Why doesn't Rondo have a jumper right now?

Seriously, he is a professional. Hit the damn gym and become a lethal shooter from 15 feet. Not that hard a shot with his athletic ability.

Maurice Williams is getting $8.9 million a year. right now, he is better than Rondo. that would be Rondo's deal IMO. Around Mo Williams level.

[sully00]

Also, how is Rondo not efficient when he scores?
Who got the most easy baskets for us this postseason?
Who set up most of the other easy baskets?

You aren't serious?

Rondo had eFG% of 43% in the postseason including shooting 37% from the field against ORL.

It is about comparative value, but from the agent/player's perspective as well the owners/general manager's. Rondo may not be as good as Lebron James, but you would have a tough time convincing me that he isn't at least in the same ballpark as a Rashard Lewis (I would say quite a bit better than Lewis myself). I think Rondo at the moment is in the borderline all-star tier, and with some significant shooting improvement (and he's been trending very favorably in that direction since he first joined the league) has the potential to be one of the top two point guards in the NBA one day. He may not get max, but when you factor in the premium you typically pay for young point guards, I am guessing it will end up being around $60 million over 5 years. If you say he isn't worth that much, what's the alternative?

This gets to the heart of the issue. Replacement value is probably a better way to put it than even comparative value and that is the beauty of Boston's situation. I disagree about your assessment of Lewis not about who is better but who is worth more money. Lewis is 6'10" with an incredibly efficient offensive game with about as much range as any player in the NBA. Now is he the total package I would want to give max money to maybe not but he gives you the same kind of numbers as an All Star SF and as long as I have Dwight Howard I can put up with the lack of rebounds. In the end I would rather Lewis than Antwan Jamison who has the traditional PF rebounding stats but isn't as difficult a player to defend or as efficient an offensive player.

Either way Lewis was a UFA in barren market and the Magic had the cap space and a franchise player they needed to sign. Lewis' first trip into FA is more comparable to Rondo. I think we as fans tend to overvalue Rondo because I think he could be replaced with MLE player. I think that Boston Celtics with a healthy big 3 could win a title with Ramon Sessions at the point for example, or a veteran player like Andre Miller. I know some want him to be a transition star but I don't think he is ever going to score enough to be that guy, his team will always need two or three other scorers, that limits what you can pay him.

If you are the Boston Celtics trying to fill out a championship roster, the difference between 10 and 12 mil is 4 million dollars or that MLE FA or bringing back a guy like Big Baby so it is a big deal. Rondo is a great player and I want him signed I am simply refuting this idea that he is somehow a top 10 player in the NBA who the team needs more than the money even matters, that is who gets 25+% of you salary cap. The only way I think an extension gets done with Rondo this off season is if he takes a deal in the neighborhood of Jameer Nelson and Jose Calderon.

[jfs1000d]

Calderon, Andre Miller and Jameer Nelson all would have led us to a title last year.

Andre Miller would be terrific as Boston's PG. Getting old though, but for one year? Terrific.

[TA42]

You guys are all crazy. Rondo will indeed get paid the max or near-max based purely on the speculation that he could be an elite PG in this league. He shows enough flashes of brilliance to tantalize everyone.

His main weakness right now is his jump shot. His decision making will improve with time and as he gets more respect from the refs his defense will improve as he won't get called on as many ticky-tac fouls.

He will be at the top or near the top in assists and steals year round with a solid offensive game built mostly on his quickness. Add in his rebounding and that my friends is a near max point guard.

EDIT: If he manages to develop even a semi-respectable jumpshot this whole conversation is moot.

Going to be anti-rondo on two threads now.

Why doesn't Rondo have a jumper right now?

Seriously, he is a professional. Hit the damn gym and become a lethal shooter from 15 feet. Not that hard a shot with his athletic ability.

Maurice Williams is getting $8.9 million a year. right now, he is better than Rondo. that would be Rondo's deal IMO. Around Mo Williams level.

Do you think Mo Williams has a higher ceiling than Rondo?

If I'm Rondo's agent I bring up the fact that he has gotten better statistically every year he's been in the league. He was the starting point guard on a championship team. He stepped his game up in the playoffs the very next year when his team needed him the most averaging close to a triple double. Oh by the way...he was also selected All-NBA 2nd team on defense.

For the 08-09 season (amongst PG's) he ranked 4th in steals (Paul, Kidd and Chalmers ahead), 3rd in rebounding (Paul and Kidd), 6th in assists (Paul, D. Williams, Nash, Calderon, Kidd) and 2nd in FG% behind only Tony Parker. You can point to him not having a high scoring average but his job wasn't to be the first or second option, like most of the other PG's listed.

The names constantly around him statistically are Kidd, Paul, Williams, Nash and Calderon.

That groups salaries for 08/09 season:

Jason Kidd - 21.3 mil
Steve Nash - 12.2 mil
Deron Williams - 13.8 mil
Chris Paul - 13.8 mil
Calderon - 7.4 mil

Also keep in mind some of the other PG's - Marbury 19mil, Francis 19mil, Bibby 15mil, B. Davis 11.2mil, Hinrich 10mil, Billups 11mil, T. Parker 11.5mil

Calderon is a unique case based on the fact that he was an undrafted player who has steadily improved. He's not the defender or rebounder Rondo is but he could be the better scorer. I also personally think he's a great bargain for Toronto. He was also splitting duties with TJ Ford and the Raptors may have been able to use Ford as leverage during contract talks.

So again, if statistically Rondo is up there with the best PG's why wouldn't he command the money from Boston? Maybe not Chris Paul/Deron Williams 13.8mil money but certainly 11-12mil+.

Not only that but he's only 23 years old.

If he manages to increase his stats again (as he's done each year previously) you might be looking at a starting PG on a championship caliber team averaging 13-15 PTS, 10 AST, 6 REB and 2 Steals. That's pretty damn good and his scoring could be alot higher if he was the focal point on offense.

He may never be as good as Chris Paul or Deron Williams but there's no reason he couldn't be the 3rd best PG in the league in a couple years and if he ever manages to get his jump shot down all bets are off.

[GuyClinch]

For the 08-09 season (amongst PG's) he ranked 4th in steals (Paul, Kidd and Chalmers ahead), 3rd in rebounding (Paul and Kidd), 6th in assists (Paul, D. Williams, Nash, Calderon, Kidd) and 2nd in FG% behind only Tony Parker. You can point to him not having a high scoring average but his job wasn't to be the first or second option, like most of the other PG's listed.

I don't think Danny is a fan of pure PGs. He talked about how on the Celtics we had two "PGs" him and DJ - both of whom could score. Rondo's lack of an offensive game does hurt the C's because teams play him to pass not shoot.

No it doesn't hurt his "numbers" but it can hurt the team. Teams are playing us with "Rondo Rules" right now and that's a troubling trend. I think the prudent thing to do is let Rondo play another year and then think about resigning him.

I'd be surprised if Danny signs him early to a big deal.

Pete

[TA42]

For the 08-09 season (amongst PG's) he ranked 4th in steals (Paul, Kidd and Chalmers ahead), 3rd in rebounding (Paul and Kidd), 6th in assists (Paul, D. Williams, Nash, Calderon, Kidd) and 2nd in FG% behind only Tony Parker. You can point to him not having a high scoring average but his job wasn't to be the first or second option, like most of the other PG's listed.

I don't think Danny is a fan of pure PGs. He talked about how on the Celtics we had two "PGs" him and DJ - both of whom could score. Rondo's lack of an offensive game does hurt the C's because teams play him to pass not shoot.

No it doesn't hurt his "numbers" but it can hurt the team. Teams are playing us with "Rondo Rules" right now and that's a troubling trend. I think the prudent thing to do is let Rondo play another year and then think about resigning him.

I'd be surprised if Danny signs him early to a big deal.

Pete

Pete, I agree that waiting another year makes all the sense in the world. You may very well be right about Rondo not being an Ainge type of PG but remember that Danny thought enough of him coming out of college that he traded for him.

All I'm trying to say is it is not out of the realm of possibility that Rondo commands a very high salary on his next extension if he continues to show improvements.

Is he worth the money? That's up to Danny and Wyc to decide.

But if they don't think they can resign him to something reasonable then they will absolutely have to trade him.